Will electricity prices start to kill off EV's?
Discussion
The increase in electricity prices will already make many EV's more expensive to 'fill up' than ICE cars and this is for charging at home, goodness knows what it will cost at fast public chargers, when firms catch up with the latest price increases.
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/energy-price-...
Of course electricity prices will be going up again by about 50% early next year. When that happens there will be a big gap between 'filling up' EV's and ICE cars.
With fairly bog standard unexciting EV's coming in at about £40,000, who will be wanting to buy knowing they will have to pay far more to fuel them?
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/energy-price-...
Of course electricity prices will be going up again by about 50% early next year. When that happens there will be a big gap between 'filling up' EV's and ICE cars.
With fairly bog standard unexciting EV's coming in at about £40,000, who will be wanting to buy knowing they will have to pay far more to fuel them?
boombang said:
I don't know a single EV owner who doesn't have a tariff that caters for cheap off peak charging. Octopus Go is still 7.5p/kwh for 4 hours per night if you sign up now.t
Personally I've a few months of the 5p version and have the option of charging at work for ~8p/kwh.
Incidentally for my commute I'd rather be in an EV, even if worked out more expensive than a diesel.
Off peak tariffs means you pay more than the standard tariff at other times i.e. when most people use most of their electricity. Not a good idea for most people. Personally I've a few months of the 5p version and have the option of charging at work for ~8p/kwh.
Incidentally for my commute I'd rather be in an EV, even if worked out more expensive than a diesel.
What if your fuel was costing you 50% more?
Electricity is now being forecast to increase by more than 50% in January and by 80% in April.
Whilst you might not be bothered about the cost of fuelling your vehicle, the majority will be. The majority of EV buyers quoted it was the cheap fuel that motivated them the most.
ChocolateFrog said:
Me too.
It's not difficult to work out and spoiler alert were not there yet.
Why don't you read the link and then tell Which they are lying?It's not difficult to work out and spoiler alert were not there yet.
https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/energy-price-...
That is for charging at home. Currently, public chargers charge at twice the domestic rate, per Kwh, to use them (they have to pay 20% VAT for starters).
What person, who has no access to private charging (millions of people) would ever consider buying an EV, costing them twice the price to fuel them over an ICE vehicle?
Even if you can charge at home, if a significant part of your annual mileage involves longer journeys (like mine), meaning you have to use public charging, this would be a major disincentive to purchasing an EV.
Charging at home will be about 80% more expensive than using ordinary fuel from next April, if the predictions are correct. I assume charging at a public point will be about 160% more expensive than petrol or diesel.
confused_buyer said:
Hmm. The price cap is heading towards £1/kWh (current prediction £1.06) so public more like £2/kWh.
Obviously that is peak times.
If (or almost inevitably WHEN) the cap reaches 1.06/kWh that EV, with a 64 kWh battery, doing 230 miles per full charge (or 180 miles if mainly motorway) is going to cost £68 for those miles or £136 if charged on the road.Obviously that is peak times.
My ICE car (240 hp) would cost £35 for 230 miles or £28 for 180 miles.
I don't have range anxiety either, doing 650 miles on a tank or 750 miles when touring abroad. No lengthy times refuelling either.
ITP said:
I though recent legislation means that EV’s now have to be metered at home separate from the standard domestic supply?
This legislation is clearly in place to allow different (obviously higher) costs for ev and home charging. Not much longer will it on the same tariff.
Indeed!This legislation is clearly in place to allow different (obviously higher) costs for ev and home charging. Not much longer will it on the same tariff.
"On 30th June 2022 The Electric Vehicles (Smart Charge Points) Regulations come into force (1). All home installed electric vehicle chargers will be required to be separately metered and send this information to the Smart meter data communications network.
Potentially this legislation allows the electricity used for charging EVs to be charged and taxed at a higher rate than domestic electricity. The technology enacted also enables the rationing of electricity for EV charging because the government can decide when and if an EV can be charged, plus it also allows the EV battery to be drained into the grid if required.
This legislation does not apply to public or rapid charge points, but there is no reason why electricity consumed via these charge points can’t be taxed."
Mouse Rat said:
Two of my colleagues have cancelled orders for EVs because of the rise.
The best renewal rate we had as business is 60pp kwhr.
That's £50 to charge an ipace and get approx 200miles to 250miles.
How many more people will be cancelling when they learn that price will be rising to £85 in the next few months?The best renewal rate we had as business is 60pp kwhr.
That's £50 to charge an ipace and get approx 200miles to 250miles.
Aluminium said:
I think that the question is not taking in to account that the rise in electricity prices is inextricably linked to the rise in oil prices,
so I not say it would while the alternative to an EV is a petrol or diesel car.
Electricity is not in step with oil prices. Oil has been falling recently and is now cheaper than before the Russians invaded Ukraine.so I not say it would while the alternative to an EV is a petrol or diesel car.
This is about the energy market and demand is exceeding supply, mainly for gas but this impacts all energy sources coal, wood etc. The renewable energy companies are the ones really coining it in, their costs have remained pretty stable but they are selling their energy into the energy market at the current hugely inflated price.
georgeyboy12345 said:
lol really?
An incredibly naive statement. Just because a news article is published on a website, it doesn't make it the truth. They could very well be lying, bending the truth or at best misunderstanding the situation. You have to remember, these articles are writen by journalists, not professional experts in their respective field. There has been no peer-review prior to the publishing of this article. I'm not sure where you have been the past 10 or so years, but websites (including Which) often publish attention-grabbing headlines in order to get greater clickthrough, either to increase advertising revenue, or in the case of Which, in the hope that you'll subscribe to a membership for money.
They are using the actual domestic electricity price of 0.52p a kWh from October, the average miles per kw for an EV, the actual price per mile for diesel/petrol and the average miles used per vehicle per year. Seems to cover everything and the calculations can be replicated by anyone. An incredibly naive statement. Just because a news article is published on a website, it doesn't make it the truth. They could very well be lying, bending the truth or at best misunderstanding the situation. You have to remember, these articles are writen by journalists, not professional experts in their respective field. There has been no peer-review prior to the publishing of this article. I'm not sure where you have been the past 10 or so years, but websites (including Which) often publish attention-grabbing headlines in order to get greater clickthrough, either to increase advertising revenue, or in the case of Which, in the hope that you'll subscribe to a membership for money.
As you are clearly not 'naive', why don't you do the calculation therefore and tell everybody here what the real answer is?
TheRainMaker said:
First off to the question asked in the title, no but I think more people might think twice.
My workings out on my car (Polestar 2) based on the 52p per kW announced today, I am on a variable tariff like a fair few other EV owners, we are not all on cheap overnight tariffs for a whole host of reasons.
In December last year, my EV used an average of 41.6 kWh/100mi (2.40mi/kWh)
This gives my car a range of 180 miles in winter (WLTP 301 miles)
To charge my car from empty to full will cost £41.60 (23p per mile)
Any petrol car (£1.70 per litre, RAC) with an MPG higher than 35 will be cheaper to fuel than my EV.
Any diesel car (£1.82 per litre, RAC) with an MPG higher than 36 will be cheaper to fuel than my EV.
If we then look at the possibility of public charging becoming £1.00 per kW, this would bring a full charge to around £80.00 (44p per mile)
Any petrol car with an MPG figure of more than 17 mpg will be cheaper to fuel than my EV.
Of course those are only the prices for the next three months. Then prices rise to 80p a kWh and then to at least £1 three months later, meaning about £2 per kWh at a public charging point. Your calculation then will be disastrous for EV's.My workings out on my car (Polestar 2) based on the 52p per kW announced today, I am on a variable tariff like a fair few other EV owners, we are not all on cheap overnight tariffs for a whole host of reasons.
In December last year, my EV used an average of 41.6 kWh/100mi (2.40mi/kWh)
This gives my car a range of 180 miles in winter (WLTP 301 miles)
To charge my car from empty to full will cost £41.60 (23p per mile)
Any petrol car (£1.70 per litre, RAC) with an MPG higher than 35 will be cheaper to fuel than my EV.
Any diesel car (£1.82 per litre, RAC) with an MPG higher than 36 will be cheaper to fuel than my EV.
If we then look at the possibility of public charging becoming £1.00 per kW, this would bring a full charge to around £80.00 (44p per mile)
Any petrol car with an MPG figure of more than 17 mpg will be cheaper to fuel than my EV.
Biggy Stardust said:
Sorry but I'll have to side with the EVers here- you can only argue figures based on what's known or highly likely. Your figures are too speculative.
Speculative!!The price cap WILL be revised on the 1st of January and again on the 1st of April.
All commentators and financial organisations are agreed the rise will be about 50% in Jan and whilst there are various estimates for April all are agreed there will be another significant rise probably to at least 80% over the October figure, the one I have used.
Actually the most popular estimate is for it to be 85% of the October figure.
Mine is the low estimate.
confused_buyer said:
Are the cheap charging tariffs (e.g. Octopus Go) actually still available for new contacts?
If so, what is the day time rate on new contracts offered today?
I know they are still on websites but do they actually exist?
I like how the people saying how little they pay to charge off peak ( these rates will be soaring as the general price increases feed in in any event) never tell us how much extra they pay for their electricity, over the standard rate, for the rest of the time. If so, what is the day time rate on new contracts offered today?
I know they are still on websites but do they actually exist?
Most people use the vast bulk of their electricity in peak hours. I don't and couldn't, use much electricity off peak. My usage is for lights, bathing, cooking, electrical devices etc, don't think I can cut the grass at night! This will be the same for nearly everybody.
So the cost of charging off peak needs to include all the extra money people are paying the rest of the time, when they are using electricity at significantly more than the standard rate.
page3 said:
Currently 5p/15p. New rate will be 7.5p/40p.
About 45% of usage is off peak. Octopus very helpfully give a calculated single rate on their bills, based on your usage balance- our last for July was 10.62p.
So you are telling me that you will be paying 7.5p/40p, when the cap (which gives the supply companies a minimal operating profit) is 52p, rising to about 80p in January?About 45% of usage is off peak. Octopus very helpfully give a calculated single rate on their bills, based on your usage balance- our last for July was 10.62p.
Sorry it's fanciful. The whole country would switch. How many weeks (days!) would it take for the company to become bankrupt. Because that's what happens if you sell your product at well below what it costs you.
Actually, this is what Octopus Energy say to people who are wanting to get them to supply their energy...........................
"Energy prices are at record highs, and most homes will be better off staying with their current energy supplier right now.
If your fixed term is coming to an end, don't choose a new tariff or switch supplier.
Instead, let your supplier automatically move you to their default tariff, so your prices are protected by the Government's Energy Price Cap.
Would you like an email when prices fall?"
So Octopus can not beat other energy company prices. Perhaps you are on a fixed deal but this will end soon and then you are in for it just like everybody else.
page3 said:
Yes, that’s exactly what I’m telling you. Fixed until September 2023. Many others are on even better fixed rates, it’s all a matter of planning, timing and luck.
So your comments about how cheap it is to charge EV's off peak are just nonsense for the vast bulk of people. Just cheap for people who have lucked out due to their fixed deal dates.Octopus will not take people on, they are telling people to stay with their current supplier and move to their standard variable rate.
For their existing customers I doubt it will be good news.
"Ofgem, the energy regulator has announced that the energy price cap will increase to £3,549 for a typical dual fuel household from October 1st.
Octopus has not yet made decisions on its prices - we are working on our plans and expect to announce changes in the next 10 days.
We know this is a stressful time for everyone, and will be increasing our support for customers who need it most."
Oh dear!
Merry said:
They are, I joined them yesterday. All being well I can get on the 40/7.5p tariff before the price rise. Even if this is higher it'll still mitigate rise for us, as we have an PHEV to charge overnight that accounts for a 3rd of our electricity use.
As I said earlier, you've just got to ring them.
When I ask for a quote this is the message I get this message .....................As I said earlier, you've just got to ring them.
"You need to know this 👇
Energy prices are at record highs, and most homes will be better off staying with their current energy supplier right now.
If your fixed term is coming to an end, don't choose a new tariff or switch supplier.
Instead, let your supplier automatically move you to their default tariff, so your prices are protected by the Government's Energy Price Cap.
Would you like an email when prices fall?"
How did you proceed to get them to let you join?
Also, there is no chance they will be offering those prices to new customers, they say ...........
"Ofgem, the energy regulator has announced that the energy price cap will increase to £3,549 for a typical dual fuel household from October 1st.
Octopus has not yet made decisions on its prices - we are working on our plans and expect to announce changes in the next 10 days.
We know this is a stressful time for everyone, and will be increasing our support for customers who need it most."
Dingu said:
You may as well just say you hate the idea of an EV and save everyone the time.
Nope, I am just saying EV's will be considerably more expensive to fuel than ICE vehicles going forward. Oil is cheaper than before the war and petrol prices have fallen and will continue to fall as the fall in oil prices continues to feed through to the retail market.The majority of EV owners say the cheap fuelling cost was their main motivator for purchasing an EV.
Merry said:
Click proceed and ring them number. I'm not sure why you're being so obtuse about this to be honest.
If you ignore the first exhortation not to proceed they then say this......................."With global energy prices at record highs, you're unlikely to be better off by switching at this time.
If you think that's incorrect and would like a personalised quote, please call and speak to one of our experts."
So they tell you again they cannot beat other suppliers
In addition there will be no quotes currently because as they say ......................
"Ofgem, the energy regulator has announced that the energy price cap will increase to £3,549 for a typical dual fuel household from October 1st.
Octopus has not yet made decisions on its prices - we are working on our plans and expect to announce changes in the next 10 days.
We know this is a stressful time for everyone, and will be increasing our support for customers who need it most."
So they say and stress, that their prices will not be cheaper than other suppliers, so why do you think they will be?
delta0 said:
This is completely untrue. It is incredibly cheap to run an EV and will continue to be for the foreseeable and probably forever.
Recent falls in fuel prices are just noise. The trend is strongly upwards. Regardless it’s still cheaper to run an EV. I would need to be doing more than 400mpg to beat it.
Either this is satire, or you are deluded, which is it?Recent falls in fuel prices are just noise. The trend is strongly upwards. Regardless it’s still cheaper to run an EV. I would need to be doing more than 400mpg to beat it.
Edited by delta0 on Saturday 27th August 16:22
Merry said:
Because I spoke to them, yesterday. You can get onto thier standard variable straight away (ie the existing cap). Once you're on that you can move to Go. I'm trying to do this ASAP to get the 40/7.5p rate, no doubt if it drags on I won't. But at a worst case I'll be on a cap rate I would have been on anyway. Nothing ventured as they say. Plus I got £50 from using a referral too.
The new cap doesn't come in until October the 1st. So taking the 40/7.5p now technically is higher than staying on the cap. That's what the message is swinging at.
As I've said repeatedly, if you ignore the various messages, including the pre recorded one when you ring and get through to someone you may be surprised.
Well I can get on to a capped rate with my current supplier British Gas, they offered me one a week ago, I just need to click on a button to fix my energy bill @ £6700 per annum.The new cap doesn't come in until October the 1st. So taking the 40/7.5p now technically is higher than staying on the cap. That's what the message is swinging at.
As I've said repeatedly, if you ignore the various messages, including the pre recorded one when you ring and get through to someone you may be surprised.
Perhaps Octopus can beat it, I doubt it would be a significant sum though.
DonkeyApple said:
Brent is over $100 today. On Feb 24th when the war began it was under $93.
51% may have said that cheaper fuel was a driver but without knowing what they were consuming prior it is an irrelevant stat in the co text that you're trying to use it for.
Oil was at $89 when the war started rose to a maximum of $119 but was back down to $86 on the 17th of August. It blipped up again in the last week to $95 and is now at $92. It will move around a bit but the trend since the peak in March is strongly downwards.51% may have said that cheaper fuel was a driver but without knowing what they were consuming prior it is an irrelevant stat in the co text that you're trying to use it for.
Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff