EVs... no one wants them!

[tamore]

survivalist said:

Range and charging infrastructure are closely linked. If charging was more widely available people won’t care so much about range. If range develops rapidly then the availability of charging locations is less of an issues.

I think people subconsciously ‘plan for the peak’ - they don’t think about the benefit of being able to change at home, they think about how annoying it’ll be to have to find a charger on the way to Cornwall on a Friday.

Issue is that building a trip to Esso (other filling stations are available) isn’t seen as an inconvenience. Stopping at a device station for 40 mins (especially when on holiday) absolutely is.

that was kind of what i was getting at. i reckon the sweet spot is about 300 miles with 10 min genuine charging time. there's a few battery chemistries in development which would allow this, and 600kW charging is now a real thing in china.

i actually think getting our nationwide finger out and bolstering electricity distribution is going to be the key. it'll be a big bottleneck if some legislation isn't passed to fast track planning.

Edited by tamore on Sunday 14th April 20:40

[Chasing Potatoes]

Evanivitch said:

I suspect because VW dealerships have the absolute worst EV sales training in the world. They're infamously useless. If they moved all ID sales online it wouldn't be a bad thing.

Feels like this would be all over the motoring press. I can’t find a thing.

[survivalist]

tamore said:

survivalist said:

Range and charging infrastructure are closely linked. If charging was more widely available people won’t care so much about range. If range develops rapidly then the availability of charging locations is less of an issues.

I think people subconsciously ‘plan for the peak’ - they don’t think about the benefit of being able to change at home, they think about how annoying it’ll be to have to find a charger on the way to Cornwall on a Friday.

Issue is that building a trip to Esso (other filling stations are available) isn’t seen as an inconvenience. Stopping at a device station for 40 mins (especially when on holiday) absolutely is.

that was kind of what i was getting at. i reckon the sweet spot is about 300 miles with 10 min genuine charging time. there's a few battery chemistries in development which would allow this, and 600kW charging is now a real thing in china.

i actually think getting our nationwide finger out and bolstering electricity distribution is going to be the key. it'll be a big bottleneck if some legislation isn't passed to fast track planning.

Edited by tamore on Sunday 14th April 20:40

Agreed. But in terms of the motorist who is buying an appliance that only gets you back to where we were 5/10 years ago - you can’t sell it as a real benefit in any terms other than cost.

[tamore]

survivalist said:

Agreed. But in terms of the motorist who is buying an appliance that only gets you back to where we were 5/10 years ago - you can’t sell it as a real benefit in any terms other than cost.

oh i dunno. nice warm car, fully defrosted on a cold morning, nice cool car on a hot day. majority may virtually never have to charge other than home charger. quiet, smooth and generally quicker than like for like ICE. vehicle. and if you are that way of thinking, you're doing something about environmental impact.

[740EVTORQUES]

tamore said:

that was kind of what i was getting at. i reckon the sweet spot is about 300 miles with 10 min genuine charging time. there's a few battery chemistries in development which would allow this, and 600kW charging is now a real thing in china.

i actually think getting our nationwide finger out and bolstering electricity distribution is going to be the key. it'll be a big bottleneck if some legislation isn't passed to fast track planning.

Edited by tamore on Sunday 14th April 20:40

I don’t think you even need that.

800v 250kW charging allows 20-80% in 18 minutes

That’s plenty fast enough especially if it is only really needed for long trips and the majority of use is covered by home charging or slower charging street side, at supermarkets etc.

The issue is that not many cheaper EVs have this rate of charging yet, and the provision and reliability and more importantly public confidence in the infrastructure is not there yet.

I’m clearly willing to give the tech the benefit of the doubt and I’ve been surprised at how few problems I’ve encountered (in practical terms none) but the level of confidence should be that you don’t even have to think about it. That will come, but newspapers and YouTube channels overplaying the issues don’t help.

[M4cruiser]

TheRainMaker said:

There are loads under 25K, and all are in stock for immediate delivery, it seems.

Citroen e-C4
Hyundai Ioniq
Vauxhall Corsa-e
Peugeot E-208
Volkswagen E-up
Fiat 500
MG MG5
MG MG4
MG MG ZS
Mazda MX-30

^ but if you browse for "nearly new" there are much bigger bargains. Nissan Leaf is £32,000 new (depending on model/spec) but for reasons I can't fathom there are pre-reg ones for under £20K. Some of them are 18 months old! Where have they been?

[survivalist]

tamore said:

survivalist said:

Agreed. But in terms of the motorist who is buying an appliance that only gets you back to where we were 5/10 years ago - you can’t sell it as a real benefit in any terms other than cost.

oh i dunno. nice warm car, fully defrosted on a cold morning, nice cool car on a hot day. majority may virtually never have to charge other than home charger. quiet, smooth and generally quicker than like for like ICE. vehicle. and if you are that way of thinking, you're doing something about environmental impact.

In reality these are fringe benefits.

Don’t get me wrong, great as a second car when you have something else for long trips. But no replacement for a decent range when you want to head off on holiday.

As for the drive, I think this is massively overstated by people who love the EV power delivery. Most people don’t care.

[survivalist]

M4cruiser said:

TheRainMaker said:

There are loads under 25K, and all are in stock for immediate delivery, it seems.

Citroen e-C4
Hyundai Ioniq
Vauxhall Corsa-e
Peugeot E-208
Volkswagen E-up
Fiat 500
MG MG5
MG MG4
MG MG ZS
Mazda MX-30

^ but if you browse for "nearly new" there are much bigger bargains. Nissan Leaf is £32,000 new (depending on model/spec) but for reasons I can't fathom there are pre-reg ones for under £20K. Some of them are 18 months old! Where have they been?

Huge amount of EVs have been pre-registered, presumably because of targets set by manufacturers for their dealers. The hope is/was that demand will increase, but it seems that it isn’t.

In reality they only way that new EVs are shifting is fleet/salary sacrifice or ultra cheap deals like the Honda one recently.

That might change as people on these deals get used to EV and encourage friends/family to become private buyers. Slow process though.

[tamore]

survivalist said:

In reality these are fringe benefits.

Don’t get me wrong, great as a second car when you have something else for long trips. But no replacement for a decent range when you want to head off on holiday.

As for the drive, I think this is massively overstated by people who love the EV power delivery. Most people don’t care.

well ours has a terrible range at around 130 motorway miles. for the couple of long journeys we do a year, it's worth planning the stops as the other side to the convenience it brings year round.

as for the latter point, country roads infested with our lycra clad chums on 2 wheels suit EV power delivery. being in rural peak district, the cold morning prep is a big fringe benefit too.

Edited by tamore on Sunday 14th April 21:38

[plfrench]

survivalist said:

Huge amount of EVs have been pre-registered, presumably because of targets set by manufacturers for their dealers. The hope is/was that demand will increase, but it seems that it isn’t.

In reality they only way that new EVs are shifting is fleet/salary sacrifice or ultra cheap deals like the Honda one recently.

That might change as people on these deals get used to EV and encourage friends/family to become private buyers. Slow process though.

I suspect another round of high fuel pricing would help to shift some people who are on the fence at the moment too. If the Iran activities escalate further and oil jumps again as it is expected to, then people may decide to bite the bullet, particularly as electricity prices have dropped recently again. Last time around when fuel was getting up to circa £2 / litre it seemed to drive a fair bit of general interest in EV.

[Evanivitch]

survivalist said:

In reality these are fringe benefits.

Don’t get me wrong, great as a second car when you have something else for long trips. But no replacement for a decent range when you want to head off on holiday.

As for the drive, I think this is massively overstated by people who love the EV power delivery. Most people don’t care.

A 300+ mile day is quite easily done in a 64kWh car. I'm not sure how many people want to drive 5+ hours for holiday, and young families aren't so keen.

[JustinCredible]

Chasing Potatoes said:

Evanivitch said:

I suspect because VW dealerships have the absolute worst EV sales training in the world. They're infamously useless. If they moved all ID sales online it wouldn't be a bad thing.

Feels like this would be all over the motoring press. I can’t find a thing.

They haven't removed them yet as we looked at a Buzz today at a VW dealer and they had at least one other ID in the showroom (not sure which one as we went to look at the Buzz)

[BBYeah]

Mr ev on YouTube recently mentioned a Tesla road trip is in some ways even easier than ice. As it maps out all the stops required for you. After four years of a Tesla I’d almost agree. I still find it a bit painful on holidays out in the countryside, especially with non Tesla charging costs.

[Ankh87]

Dave200 said:

Ankh87 said:

Dave200 said:

But why is this a problem now? Not everyone needs to own an EV now. In fact not everyone needs to own an EV in 2035 either. The 56% of people who can charge at home should be fine now, and we've got plenty of time to figure out which of the many solutions for public charging can be scaled to meet demand over the next 11 years.

Because the Government couldn't organise this if they wanted to. 11 years and there's been tiny steps since the 2030 date was set.

So your reason for not wanting an EV is that you don't think anything will change in the next 11 years?

No that's not my reason. Mines due to mileage that I do.
I'm only saying the Government are useless and couldn't do what's needed. Look at HS2 for example. One train line and well we all know what happened.

[survivalist]

plfrench said:

survivalist said:

Huge amount of EVs have been pre-registered, presumably because of targets set by manufacturers for their dealers. The hope is/was that demand will increase, but it seems that it isn’t.

In reality they only way that new EVs are shifting is fleet/salary sacrifice or ultra cheap deals like the Honda one recently.

That might change as people on these deals get used to EV and encourage friends/family to become private buyers. Slow process though.

I suspect another round of high fuel pricing would help to shift some people who are on the fence at the moment too. If the Iran activities escalate further and oil jumps again as it is expected to, then people may decide to bite the bullet, particularly as electricity prices have dropped recently again. Last time around when fuel was getting up to circa £2 / litre it seemed to drive a fair bit of general interest in EV.

Short term issue vs year PCP dulls the shock. People seem to prefer low monthly payments compared to total running costs.

[survivalist]

Evanivitch said:

survivalist said:

In reality these are fringe benefits.

Don’t get me wrong, great as a second car when you have something else for long trips. But no replacement for a decent range when you want to head off on holiday.

As for the drive, I think this is massively overstated by people who love the EV power delivery. Most people don’t care.

A 300+ mile day is quite easily done in a 64kWh car. I'm not sure how many people want to drive 5+ hours for holiday, and young families aren't so keen.

Maybe we are the exception. Next long trip will be just short of 700 miles in one day. Stopping only for toilet breaks and fuel. Food in service stations is god awful so no interest in stopping to eat.

Tried stopping half way and staying in a hotel in the past. It certainly makes the journey feel more relaxed, but adds nothing to the experience. You stop at a hotel, have dinner, sleep and then head off after breakfast’. Much better to do it in one hit IMO.

The other factor in all of this is cruising speed. Once in Europe the speed limit is generally 130 kph and I’ve never been stopped if under 145kph.

EV range seems to dip off massively after 110kph, and that’s before considering the massive drag from the bikes and roof box we have strapped to the car for a 2 week family holiday.

[Chasing Potatoes]

Almost certainly the exception and I’d say that an EV isn’t right for someone doing that with any regularity. But most people aren’t.

[sixor8]

I'll say. 300 miles from a 64kWh car (with a bit left) is over 5 miles / kWh. At motorway speeds, do any of them do that, perhaps Tesla?

I've had my Honda EV 3 weeks and it averages 3.4 miles / kWh so far (all in Eco mode), and others have experienced much less. Best I've seen is a 4 mile run home from the hospital, slightly downhill and all at 30 / 40mph, 6.2 miles / kWh. However, going up there in the morning with a cold car, it was 2 miles / kWh. Heated seat was only on for 2 mins, honest!

[Downward]

sixor8 said:

I'll say. 300 miles from a 64kWh car (with a bit left) is over 5 miles / kWh. At motorway speeds, do any of them do that, perhaps Tesla?

I've had my Honda EV 3 weeks and it averages 3.4 miles / kWh so far (all in Eco mode), and others have experienced much less. Best I've seen is a 4 mile run home from the hospital, slightly downhill and all at 30 / 40mph, 6.2 miles / kWh. However, going up there in the morning with a cold car, it was 2 miles / kWh. Heated seat was only on for 2 mins, honest!

No chance of over 5.
Nearest is about 4.5 from the 24kw battery leaf which isn’t as heavy. Maybe some smaller EV’s with 11kw batteries may.

[survivalist]

Chasing Potatoes said:

Almost certainly the exception and I’d say that an EV isn’t right for someone doing that with any regularity. But most people aren’t.

It’s not about regularity. If you do it twice a year you need a car capable of it. So that rules an EV out immediately.