EVs... no one wants them!

[cj2013]

740EVTORQUES said:

That’s fine, we all have opinions. I on the other hand find a lot of performance ICE vehicles faintly embarrassing now compared to EVs, which I far prefer.

It takes all sorts I suppose!

In fairness, 80's sports cars are embarrassing compared to a modern shopping car. For the most part, they are rather awful to drive too based on the progress that has been made.

Cars are improving from one generation to the next, but you'll always have someone preferring an MGB over anything modern. Some of it is preference, some of it psychological (reminding people of their youth etc)

[JNW1]

otolith said:

FiF said:

I expect the usual sneering responses about poor people don't have to until etc which really doesn't do anyone any favours as it presumes that no sticks will be applied on ICE and fuel to encourage the shift. There will not be and should not be any more carrots, there is no money, which comes back to Matt's basic point.

If no carrots, it needs to be sticks, otherwise "the rich" will go back to buying petrol.

Why? If an EV suits the mileage profile of a user who can charge at home why would they go back to ICE? Many on here who've made the change say they'd never go back to an ICE car for daily use because an EV simply does the job better; the lower running costs are just an added bonus and one of the biggest cost benefits (cheap rate electricity if you can charge overnight at home) isn't going to get taken away anytime soon (if ever).

So on that basis to go back to buying petrol would surely be completely illogical - why would people want to incur higher running costs on something which is worse to use as a daily driver?

[otolith]

JNW1 said:

Why? If an EV suits the mileage profile of a user who can charge at home why would they go back to ICE? Many on here who've made the change say they'd never go back to an ICE car for daily use because an EV simply does the job better; the lower running costs are just an added bonus and one of the biggest cost benefits (cheap rate electricity if you can charge overnight at home) isn't going to get taken away anytime soon (if ever).

So on that basis to go back to buying petrol would surely be completely illogical - why would people want to incur higher running costs on something which is worse to use as a daily driver?

Purchase cost.

[JNW1]

otolith said:

JNW1 said:

Why? If an EV suits the mileage profile of a user who can charge at home why would they go back to ICE? Many on here who've made the change say they'd never go back to an ICE car for daily use because an EV simply does the job better; the lower running costs are just an added bonus and one of the biggest cost benefits (cheap rate electricity if you can charge overnight at home) isn't going to get taken away anytime soon (if ever).

So on that basis to go back to buying petrol would surely be completely illogical - why would people want to incur higher running costs on something which is worse to use as a daily driver?

Purchase cost.

What's being proposed that will increase the purchase cost of EV's relative to petrol cars? I'm aware there are some changes that will adversely impact EV running costs (RFL, etc) but for those who can charge at home the EV will still be easily the lower cost option in that regard. And of course we keep getting told cheaper EV's are on their way anyway (and hence buying one should become easier).

So I still don't get why someone who's made the change to an EV will go running back to petrol unless either more incentives are thrown at EV's or sticks are used to drive people out of ICE cars? Obviously different if they've found the EV doesn't work for them and want to go back to an ICE...

[otolith]

I wasn’t really talking about individuals as the middle classes in general. Maybe the minority who have already gone electric wouldn’t go back if you took away the financial incentives, but I don’t think there would be the necessary growth. But fine, you know, massive punitive taxes on ICEs isn’t original, lots of countries will have your eyes out now, especially for anything juicy. Bit of a bugger for those who have to tow a boat 600 miles a day or whatever, but at least nobody will be getting a subsidy.

[KingGary]

p1stonhead said:

trumpton7291 said:

I don’t think most prefer ICE because we’re some stuck in the past unwoke Dinosaurs. Most people prefer ICE because currently it’s a far better technology than EVs in terms of day to day useability and who would ever want to take a backward step? Forcing people into inferior products is never going to end well. Let the market decide, if EVs are superior people will buy them. But that’s not currently the reality despite the continual protestations of the brainwashed cultist EV loons.

If you can charge at home and don’t do more than 200 miles a day, like most don’t, in what way is ICE better technology?

Not sure how you quantify “most”.

[KingGary]

740EVTORQUES said:

monkfish1 said:

I have. And it was ludicrously fast. See what I did there?

But, as before, no engine, no interest.

Simply not possible to be engaging or rewarding. iMO.

That’s fine, we all have opinions. I on the other hand find a lot of performance ICE vehicles faintly embarrassing now compared to EVs, which I far prefer.

It takes all sorts I suppose!

Do you drive round looking for people to race? Does the other party know they are racing you? I’ve witnessed some terrible driving from some EVs, seems to be a new phenomenon of driving everywhere accelerating like a loon, then immediately stamping on the brakes, then repeat. Looks knobbish to me, not impressive.

[KingGary]

cj2013 said:

740EVTORQUES said:

That’s fine, we all have opinions. I on the other hand find a lot of performance ICE vehicles faintly embarrassing now compared to EVs, which I far prefer.

It takes all sorts I suppose!

In fairness, 80's sports cars are embarrassing compared to a modern shopping car. For the most part, they are rather awful to drive too based on the progress that has been made.

Cars are improving from one generation to the next, but you'll always have someone preferring an MGB over anything modern. Some of it is preference, some of it psychological (reminding people of their youth etc)

Exactly.

[tamore]

KingGary said:

Not sure how you quantify “most”.

nearly all. is that better?

[monkfish1]

cj2013 said:

740EVTORQUES said:

That’s fine, we all have opinions. I on the other hand find a lot of performance ICE vehicles faintly embarrassing now compared to EVs, which I far prefer.

It takes all sorts I suppose!

In fairness, 80's sports cars are embarrassing compared to a modern shopping car. For the most part, they are rather awful to drive too based on the progress that has been made.

Cars are improving from one generation to the next, but you'll always have someone preferring an MGB over anything modern. Some of it is preference, some of it psychological (reminding people of their youth etc)

Depends what you mean by improving. More technologically advanced, sure. Is that better though?. Since the late nineties, stuff has got heavier, more unreliable, and from an experience point of view more divorced from what's happening at the wheel. More isolated, more rubbery for want if a better expression. For a car bought with driving experience in mind, rather than getting to Tesco's, not so sure things have improved as you put it .

[740EVTORQUES]

monkfish1 said:

I have. And it was ludicrously fast. See what I did there?

But, as before, no engine, no interest.

Simply not possible to be engaging or rewarding. iMO.

Well clearly that’s not the case as I’ve pointed out.

I know you find it hard to accept, but others feel differently.

EVs can be great drivers cars.

[GT9]

KingGary said:

Not sure how you quantify “most”.

As you might expect there are surveys in the UK to identifying this sort of thing.
Last one said 99% of journeys on any given day are under 200 miles, and 95% under 100 miles.
‘Most’ sounds like a conservative description…
You could argue that is telling us every car does a 200 mile journey once every three months.
Or you could argue that it tells us only 1% of cars are doing 200 miles, the same ones every day.
No doubt a bit of both of course, but let’s hear what you think.

[monkfish1]

740EVTORQUES said:

monkfish1 said:

I have. And it was ludicrously fast. See what I did there?

But, as before, no engine, no interest.

Simply not possible to be engaging or rewarding. iMO.

Well clearly that’s not the case as I’ve pointed out.

I know you find it hard to accept, but others feel differently.

EVs can be great drivers cars.

Always happy to accept igrrs may think differently. Would be good if everyone took a similar position, rather than blanket statements that something IS better, when that's an opinion, not fact.

[FiF]

monkfish1 said:

cj2013 said:

740EVTORQUES said:

That’s fine, we all have opinions. I on the other hand find a lot of performance ICE vehicles faintly embarrassing now compared to EVs, which I far prefer.

It takes all sorts I suppose!

In fairness, 80's sports cars are embarrassing compared to a modern shopping car. For the most part, they are rather awful to drive too based on the progress that has been made.

Cars are improving from one generation to the next, but you'll always have someone preferring an MGB over anything modern. Some of it is preference, some of it psychological (reminding people of their youth etc)

Depends what you mean by improving. More technologically advanced, sure. Is that better though?. Since the late nineties, stuff has got heavier, more unreliable, and from an experience point of view more divorced from what's happening at the wheel. More isolated, more rubbery for want if a better expression. For a car bought with driving experience in mind, rather than getting to Tesco's, not so sure things have improved as you put it .

Yes it depends exactly what is meant by improving, and what the individual gets from driving that or any vehicle.

Yes, get in an old vehicle and you're reminded fairly quickly that the brakes are a bit questionable, the gear change quirky, the engine and power output a different league entirely. Reliability was a different thing, but things that went wrong were different too.

Then you get to the things that make the drive different and skill set. Yes the gear change may be quirky, but that little technique to deal with the obstruction onthe 2nd to 3rd change, or seamlessly matching revs, or driving a particularly demanding route and not ending up with fried brakes, and there are some who even relish the opportunity to have a little investigation and tinker to make things work better. All those things work together to make character and potential satisfaction if, IF, someone is interested 'on that side of things'.

Spotted a discussion the other day about EV conversions and the opinion expressed that convert a Testarossa and you're very effectively completely removing what made the thing remarkable in the first place.

Before anyone goes off on one, this is not an argument against EVs per se, just pointing out that there is a wider picture, and explains why many think EVs have an increasing place in, let's call it the daily grind, but absolutely not the be all and end all better than everything without question never to be questioned. Clearly if someone really isn't interested in any of the stuff mentioned then crack on, but then there are an awful lot who are interested, do get satisfaction from driving well.

[ben5575]

I don’t think there are many, if any ev drivers on here that have or would say different to that.

We have an i3 that is amazing and imho far better than any ice for the grind. I also bought a mx5 yesterday because I love driving and there isn’t currently an ev that fills that particular use case.

[NDA]

trumpton7291 said:

. But that’s not currently the reality despite the continual protestations of the brainwashed cultist EV loons.

Can you show us on the map where the nasty EV overtook you?

[740EVTORQUES]

ben5575 said:

I don’t think there are many, if any ev drivers on here that have or would say different to that.

We have an i3 that is amazing and imho far better than any ice for the grind. I also bought a mx5 yesterday because I love driving and there isn’t currently an ev that fills that particular use case.

Matt Farrah disagrees…

https://apple.news/A9ZLHhJGSS7Of-rytAOh1NA


‘The Hyundai Ioniq 5 N Is by Far the Best Sports EV I've Ever Driven
It's so good that it could save the future of race tracks in the United States, if it comes to that….


There are so many ways that Hyundai could have gotten this wrong, and only one way it could go right. They’ve hit a hole-in-one on a par four. Because the lie is so convincing, after a few seconds, I didn’t care that it wasn’t real. The lie gave me what I needed in order to have fun in a car on a racetrack or a canyon road: engagement. Its mimicry of a gasoline-powered rally machine is literally as good as to be the real thing. Only if it was the real thing, for this kinda scratch you’d never be going as quickly.
‘

[BlackTank]

I wish the EV supporters who have made a type of propulsion their identity would just stop with the nonsense that EVs are exciting, engaging, thrilling to drive. They are not which is why Hyundai is trying hard to figure out how to make the Ioniq 5 N drive more like an ICE.

Let's discuss the ease of use, driving simplicity and economics of EVs - don't try to bullst driving enthusiasts on a driving enthusiasts website. It destroys any credibility and harms the discussion on EVs.

[nickfrog]

I don't see why they wouldn't be exciting, engaging, thrilling to drive. Low COG and low PMOI suggests they have merits on that front. Also, manufacturers haven't even really started exploiting those traits so perhaps in time there will be EVs focused on fun

I totally appreciate they still won't have an engine nor produce the traditional car noises and if someone can't leave with that, that's totally fair enough.

Personally if the overall experience works I won't mind.

Look at leisure go karts. The electric ones are more fun than the ICE IME. Far more responsive and sideways everywhere if you want to although I suppose it's also down to the transmission of the old ones.

[NDA]

I don't think any 4 door family blob, ICE or EV, is particularly exciting to drive to be honest. The EV is definitely the easiest, cheapest and fastest in that comparison - but EV's are not really sports cars, in the same way a Range Rover Sport is not.