EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!BricktopST205 said:
TheBinarySheep said:
Given the negative press that EV's seem to get, is this all simply for clicks, or is there any evidence that there's oil money behind it in an attempt to slow down uptake?
Or it could be that people have absolutely zero use for them? The sales of them are propped up government grants/company car tax relief.
EV's in their current state are a cheaper to run than their ICE version if you take depreciation out of the equation. That is true but when you take the amount of tax from fuel it really isn't.
The government will never let the revenue from fuel dissapear so instead will tax the EV motorist in a different way so the costs will end up the same anyway.
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
Fills itself up with fuel at home for 3p per mile (200mpg).
Can run silently in the morning to avoid waking up family.
Can preheat itself and the cabin so I can use full performance the minute I get in without damaging the engine.
Covers at least 200 miles before needing a 20 minute stop to refuel.
Can accelerate from 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds while carrying 5 people and a dog.
Is fun to drive.
Costs under £65k
I’m struggling to find one which isn’t an EV.
Can you see that for many people like me EV is the best solution right now?
BricktopST205 said:
Or it could be that people have absolutely zero use for them?
The sales of them are propped up government grants/company car tax relief.
EV's in their current state are a cheaper to run than their ICE version if you take depreciation out of the equation. That is true but when you take the amount of tax from fuel it really isn't.
The government will never let the revenue from fuel dissapear so instead will tax the EV motorist in a different way so the costs will end up the same anyway.
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
I understand that electric vehicles (EVs) might not be the best choice for everyone yet. However, I wonder how many people are deterred from considering EVs due to the negative portrayal in the media. Many people I know are hesitant to purchase an EV because newspapers often highlight how quickly they lose value. While it's true that EVs can depreciate significantly, what often goes unmentioned is that the cost savings from owning an EV can outweigh this depreciation, potentially making them a financially sound choice. It seems that the media may prefer to focus on the downsides without offering a balanced view, thus influencing public opinion.The sales of them are propped up government grants/company car tax relief.
EV's in their current state are a cheaper to run than their ICE version if you take depreciation out of the equation. That is true but when you take the amount of tax from fuel it really isn't.
The government will never let the revenue from fuel dissapear so instead will tax the EV motorist in a different way so the costs will end up the same anyway.
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
Perhaps balanced reporting doesn't generate as much online traffic.
It's worth noting that if depreciation were a major deterrent, people would have stopped buying cars like Peugeots and Vauxhalls long ago. While I acknowledge that depreciation is a real concern, it feels as though the media amplifies this issue beyond its actual significance. Depreciation has been a factor in car ownership since I began driving in 1999 and well before; it's hardly a new phenomenon.
BricktopST205 said:
Or it could be that people have absolutely zero use for them?
The sales of them are propped up government grants/company car tax relief.
EV's in their current state are a cheaper to run than their ICE version if you take depreciation out of the equation. That is true but when you take the amount of tax from fuel it really isn't.
The government will never let the revenue from fuel dissapear so instead will tax the EV motorist in a different way so the costs will end up the same anyway.
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
Bang on, and if ever we start to depend on EV’s they will be taxed right left and centre. Electricity will be through the roof and then all the ICE environmental activists operating out of a flat in London with no car will be paying through the nose for their one bar fire in a scenario of poetic justice.The sales of them are propped up government grants/company car tax relief.
EV's in their current state are a cheaper to run than their ICE version if you take depreciation out of the equation. That is true but when you take the amount of tax from fuel it really isn't.
The government will never let the revenue from fuel dissapear so instead will tax the EV motorist in a different way so the costs will end up the same anyway.
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
Dave200 said:
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!Not sure why someone who appears to like BMWs can’t you accept that a new one with over 500bhp, instant acceleration and the latest tech is attractive to non dinosaurs.
Oh and it costs peanuts to run compared to its ICE equivalent.
I don't think there's an EV owner out there that truly believes that the low running costs are going to continue forever, they're not, but you would expect that as we gradually shift more to EV's, costs will reduce and purchase/running/range will be on par with ICE (if not better), but we'll be doing it with less local pollution, more efficiency, in silence and filling up from the comfort of your own home.
GeneralBanter said:
BricktopST205 said:
Or it could be that people have absolutely zero use for them?
The sales of them are propped up government grants/company car tax relief.
EV's in their current state are a cheaper to run than their ICE version if you take depreciation out of the equation. That is true but when you take the amount of tax from fuel it really isn't.
The government will never let the revenue from fuel dissapear so instead will tax the EV motorist in a different way so the costs will end up the same anyway.
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
Bang on, and if ever we start to depend on EV’s they will be taxed right left and centre. Electricity will be through the roof and then all the ICE environmental activists operating out of a flat in London with no car will be paying through the nose for their one bar fire in a scenario of poetic justice.The sales of them are propped up government grants/company car tax relief.
EV's in their current state are a cheaper to run than their ICE version if you take depreciation out of the equation. That is true but when you take the amount of tax from fuel it really isn't.
The government will never let the revenue from fuel dissapear so instead will tax the EV motorist in a different way so the costs will end up the same anyway.
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
The Government are going to have to be a lot cleverer than simply taxing electricity aswell, due to the reliance of it for homes.
They will most likely recover what they lose in fuel duty through a pay-per-mile scheme that will tax vehicle usage, regardless of means of propulsion.
But you can bet your bottom dollar that the tax on petrol/diesel won't be coming down, so you'll be paying twice for your ICE car.
Zj2002 said:
Dave200 said:
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!Not sure why someone who appears to like BMWs can’t you accept that a new one with over 500bhp, instant acceleration and the latest tech is attractive to non dinosaurs.
Oh and it costs peanuts to run compared to its ICE equivalent.
Muzzer79 said:
Why?
Why does it need to do the things in bold?
I get the need for a car of a certain size and one that can tow a trailer.
But why does it need to have that range and charging speed?
Do you do multiple 400 mile journeys in a day? That's a hell of a lot of driving if you do.
Did you select the ICE car you drive on the basis of how many miles you can get out of a tank?
Like already pointed out it isn't for everyone. I am a trucker by trade so long distance driving is a normallity for me and I also enjoy driving and exploring. We quite often go to the lake district on a whim. I spend enough time in service stations on my weekday so rather not on the weekend. My mother also lives in Europe and is a 20 hour drive to eastern Poland. When we go we do it non stop. I can get 500 miles in my petrol so only need to fill up once on the continent. We can take our pets and it is very cost effective. Why does it need to do the things in bold?
I get the need for a car of a certain size and one that can tow a trailer.
But why does it need to have that range and charging speed?
Do you do multiple 400 mile journeys in a day? That's a hell of a lot of driving if you do.
Did you select the ICE car you drive on the basis of how many miles you can get out of a tank?
We are a 3 car family. The daily is a GR86 which I chose because I wanted something fun and exclusive but it is also compromised as a family car. After driving everywhere 56mph during the day I like something fun to unwind on my commute home. The weekend car is a heavily modifed 1995 Toyota Celica GT-Four. Every time I drive it is a theatrical event. Going to Goodwood/track days etc is what it was made for. Using it every day would get tiring.
That leaves the third car which is the do it all family wagon. An estate or van is ideal. Large enough in rear to chuck in camping gear, plenty of room for the dogs and for the two kids in the back. 250-300 BHP seems to be the sweet point. My 20 year old Saab 9-5 does it perfectly. I have owned it for 15 years now.
The only thing on the market at the moment which is something along those lines is the Porsche Taycan Cross Turismo which is miles out of my budget and too much power/too focused for what I need.
Dave200 said:
It's just so perfect. Basically happy to carry on polluting because he can't be bothered to make a single compromise. We're just lucky that everyone isn't like this.
I have owned my Saab 9-5 for 15 years now. I am far more green than yourself chopping and changing your rented car every 3 years. Edited by BricktopST205 on Tuesday 30th April 13:01
BricktopST205 said:
After all that has happened you will have a platform that whilst "greener" will be a lot more compromised than the ICE vehicle it replaced.
But it will be considerably better than nothing, which is the only viable alternative way of not emitting CO2 from private transport.It seems a really odd argument to not buy an ev now because they’ll be taxed the same as an ice at some point in the future, rather than taking advantage of cheap ev now.
Likewise the sheer amount of money people are paying/wasting on ice because they take 5 mins to refuel at a petrol station vs 20 mins to charge while they have a pee also makes no sense to me. Is that 15 mins once every 6 months really worth it?
Are you really sticking it to the man by paying him more money?
Likewise the sheer amount of money people are paying/wasting on ice because they take 5 mins to refuel at a petrol station vs 20 mins to charge while they have a pee also makes no sense to me. Is that 15 mins once every 6 months really worth it?
Are you really sticking it to the man by paying him more money?
Dave200 said:
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!The majority of people who are in EVs are in it for cost reasons due to tax benefits. Company car tax, salary sacrifice etc make them artificially cheap to a particular set of users,
The lack of second hand demand for EV and the fact that new car share has stalled around 16% both demonstrate this.
People want green, sustainable etc but only if it doesn’t inconvenience them or cost them more money.
Unreal said:
Zj2002 said:
Dave200 said:
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!Not sure why someone who appears to like BMWs can’t you accept that a new one with over 500bhp, instant acceleration and the latest tech is attractive to non dinosaurs.
Oh and it costs peanuts to run compared to its ICE equivalent.
I compare my car to its ICE equivalent. Therefore the EV costs less to run and own that it’s equivalent ICE - BMW m3 on this occasion.
What a 20 year shed costs isn’t relevant.
survivalist said:
Almost everyone is.
The majority of people who are in EVs are in it for cost reasons due to tax benefits. Company car tax, salary sacrifice etc make them artificially cheap to a particular set of users,
The lack of second hand demand for EV and the fact that new car share has stalled around 16% both demonstrate this.
People want green, sustainable etc but only if it doesn’t inconvenience them or cost them more money.
That’s actually a fair point, I chose my EV in part due to wanting to pollute less but I appreciate not everyone feels as strongly.The majority of people who are in EVs are in it for cost reasons due to tax benefits. Company car tax, salary sacrifice etc make them artificially cheap to a particular set of users,
The lack of second hand demand for EV and the fact that new car share has stalled around 16% both demonstrate this.
People want green, sustainable etc but only if it doesn’t inconvenience them or cost them more money.
But that’s why there need to be mandates as otherwise people will wait for unicorns for ever
Zj2002 said:
Unreal said:
Zj2002 said:
Dave200 said:
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!Not sure why someone who appears to like BMWs can’t you accept that a new one with over 500bhp, instant acceleration and the latest tech is attractive to non dinosaurs.
Oh and it costs peanuts to run compared to its ICE equivalent.
I compare my car to its ICE equivalent. Therefore the EV costs less to run and own that it’s equivalent ICE - BMW m3 on this occasion.
What a 20 year shed costs isn’t relevant.
Unreal said:
Zj2002 said:
Unreal said:
Zj2002 said:
Dave200 said:
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!Not sure why someone who appears to like BMWs can’t you accept that a new one with over 500bhp, instant acceleration and the latest tech is attractive to non dinosaurs.
Oh and it costs peanuts to run compared to its ICE equivalent.
I compare my car to its ICE equivalent. Therefore the EV costs less to run and own that it’s equivalent ICE - BMW m3 on this occasion.
What a 20 year shed costs isn’t relevant.
Not asking him to swap, more questioning why someone with a BMW can’t accept why someone else would want to drive the most recent one - particularly one that has more power and cheaper running costs that it’s modern ICE equivalent.
It’s ok to say I can’t afford or don’t want an EV without making up nonsense arguments to denounce them.
Zj2002 said:
Unreal said:
Zj2002 said:
Unreal said:
Zj2002 said:
Dave200 said:
SWoll said:
BricktopST205 said:
For me at least I need an EV to be 5 series estate size. Have a genuine range of 400 miles at least and be able to tow a car trailer. To charge from 0-100% in a couple of minutes. Then it will be able to replace my 20 year old family wagon that can do all of those things.
EV Bingo!Not sure why someone who appears to like BMWs can’t you accept that a new one with over 500bhp, instant acceleration and the latest tech is attractive to non dinosaurs.
Oh and it costs peanuts to run compared to its ICE equivalent.
I compare my car to its ICE equivalent. Therefore the EV costs less to run and own that it’s equivalent ICE - BMW m3 on this occasion.
What a 20 year shed costs isn’t relevant.
Not asking him to swap, more questioning why someone with a BMW can’t accept why someone else would want to drive the most recent one - particularly one that has more power and cheaper running costs that it’s modern ICE equivalent.
It’s ok to say I can’t afford or don’t want an EV without making up nonsense arguments to denounce them.
Zj2002 said:
Sorry - yes, we are at cross purposes.
Not asking him to swap, more questioning why someone with a BMW can’t accept why someone else would want to drive the most recent one - particularly one that has more power and cheaper running costs that it’s modern ICE equivalent.
It’s ok to say I can’t afford or don’t want an EV without making up nonsense arguments to denounce them.
That is pretty much it for me when the closest upgrade to my current family wagon that meets my needs is a 100 grand Porche Taycan then yes! Not asking him to swap, more questioning why someone with a BMW can’t accept why someone else would want to drive the most recent one - particularly one that has more power and cheaper running costs that it’s modern ICE equivalent.
It’s ok to say I can’t afford or don’t want an EV without making up nonsense arguments to denounce them.
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