EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
CivicDuties said:
Not a criticism, just an observation - but why would your commuting car/daily runabout be seen as a "second" car? That's literally the main work for most people's cars. I've got a mid-sized petrol estate and a Nissan Leaf with only about 100 miles of range - the Leaf is easily my "first" car - it' does over 90% of our miles I'd say and is used every day. The petrol car is a back up/occasional long drive/occasional load carrying only - very much the second car.
Why don't you just get one ICE car that can do it all and save yourself money on second insurance, tax and MOT? BricktopST205 said:
Why don't you just get one ICE car that can do it all and save yourself money on second insurance, tax and MOT?
I don't know about his circumstances but loads of families just need 2 cars anyway so they might as well be complimentary. That's where for loads of people a "hybrid" solution works, one EV and one ICE.I appreciate this means having an EV though
BricktopST205 said:
CivicDuties said:
Not a criticism, just an observation - but why would your commuting car/daily runabout be seen as a "second" car? That's literally the main work for most people's cars. I've got a mid-sized petrol estate and a Nissan Leaf with only about 100 miles of range - the Leaf is easily my "first" car - it' does over 90% of our miles I'd say and is used every day. The petrol car is a back up/occasional long drive/occasional load carrying only - very much the second car.
Why don't you just get one ICE car that can do it all and save yourself money on second insurance, tax and MOT? We're a 2 driver household and like to have 2 cars available. We always had 2 cars, even before EV was an option. Running one EV for 7 years as a main daily car has saved us a fortune in running costs.
Edited by CivicDuties on Friday 10th May 09:51
cj2013 said:
romft123 said:
Only old people buy an EV.............WTF does that mean.
I saw an EV for sale in a garage opposite an old folks home..........WHAT.
Some posters need therapy.
That's a weird reaction and taken to negative hyperbole.I saw an EV for sale in a garage opposite an old folks home..........WHAT.
Some posters need therapy.
I said that a really old an basic EV (Citroen C1 electric) that was for sale and had done little-to-no mileage (9,000) was probably something that had been sourced from the residential home, seeing as though it has been off the road for 8 years and did around 1500 miles per year on average.
Not because it's an EV, but because it fits the exact mould for 'old person has bought a little shopping car from new and barely used it', and happens to be for sale across the road from where old people live
greenarrow said:
nickfrog said:
A good analysis although I reckon the two polarised groups are actually a very small, albeit very vocal, minority here and the huge majority of contributors seem far less emotionally fragile.
In support of the adopters however, they seem to be coming from ICE cars so perhaps they have better perspective and speak from experience rather than assumptions.
Yes this is true, but re adopters in reality they are ALL coming from ICE cars unless they are brand new drivers, its just that some of them I see as being like ex-smokers, in that having made the switch they can be more critical of those who haven't. In support of the adopters however, they seem to be coming from ICE cars so perhaps they have better perspective and speak from experience rather than assumptions.
But as an ICE car owner I can definitely see the appeal of a BEV. The silence, fast and instant pick up, ability to refuel from home, all good. For me, I just wish there were more compact, affordable car options out there. The Renault 5 and new Tesla Model 2 will definitely shake things up in that market IMO.
It's more akin to non and ex-smokers responding to repeated articles stating confidently that cigarettes don't cause cancer etc. It's not the freedom of choice and diversity of opinion that gets people riled, it's the blatant misrepresentation behind a lot of it (such as saying that batteries will fail in 3 years etc)
-Pete- said:
tried 6 months ago but only got about 100 answers. Feel free to add to this poll: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
I very rarely post on PH now because people just seem to want to argue and/or prove how clever they are, but here goes anyway.
I had company cars for over 25 years, was forced to go diesel around 2000, what was once a free car ended up being a few hundred a month, a bit less when I changed to salary sacrifice. Last car was a 530D, the only thing wrong with it was no soundtrack. I'm absolutely certain that if I hadn't left, I'd be driving an EV now because I'd virtually be back to a free car again. I have a driveway, and they'd probably buy or subsidise a 7Kw charger too. So I can see the viewpoint of other PH-ers in a similar situation.
Now, I'm semi-retired so I still have a driveway, but I don't have £40-50K spare and can't afford £4-500/month. If you can't imagine this scenario, then you can't imagine the position that most of the UK population are in. Most people buy 10 year old cars... I think all of this has been said on here before. So perhaps the thread title should be EV's... the average UK car owner can't afford a decent one (yet).
Finally, as a long time motoring enthusiast, classic single, twin, i4 and V4 motorbikes have soul. Flat 4s, Flat 6s, V6s and V8s have soul. Even some i4 cars. EV's may be quick, and may be very good value if you're being heavily subsidised (which won't necessarily last) but they have nothing that appeals to me. But I'm sure I'll get one one day - we all will.
Thanks for your thoughts. I very rarely post on PH now because people just seem to want to argue and/or prove how clever they are, but here goes anyway.
I had company cars for over 25 years, was forced to go diesel around 2000, what was once a free car ended up being a few hundred a month, a bit less when I changed to salary sacrifice. Last car was a 530D, the only thing wrong with it was no soundtrack. I'm absolutely certain that if I hadn't left, I'd be driving an EV now because I'd virtually be back to a free car again. I have a driveway, and they'd probably buy or subsidise a 7Kw charger too. So I can see the viewpoint of other PH-ers in a similar situation.
Now, I'm semi-retired so I still have a driveway, but I don't have £40-50K spare and can't afford £4-500/month. If you can't imagine this scenario, then you can't imagine the position that most of the UK population are in. Most people buy 10 year old cars... I think all of this has been said on here before. So perhaps the thread title should be EV's... the average UK car owner can't afford a decent one (yet).
Finally, as a long time motoring enthusiast, classic single, twin, i4 and V4 motorbikes have soul. Flat 4s, Flat 6s, V6s and V8s have soul. Even some i4 cars. EV's may be quick, and may be very good value if you're being heavily subsidised (which won't necessarily last) but they have nothing that appeals to me. But I'm sure I'll get one one day - we all will.
Do most people in this country buy 10 year old used cars? I don't know, I couldn't find any stats online to back up your assertion. Maybe it's based upon your own observations in terms of where you live and work? It's likely to vary from place to place I would imagine. I live in a deprived part of outer London yet most of the cars on driveways are under 5 years old, and a lot of them are rather expensive cars. Should I assume that everyone in the country buys cars that are 5 years or younger? That would be a flawed assumption, right?
The other thing is that what is the average UK car owner (especially since many people don't actually legally own a car, but finance it in some form or another)? I'm not so sure there is an "average" - groups of people could be placed into similar segments though, e.g. the folks who drive really local or those that plough up and down the motorway every day
Regarding EV adoption, research has already shown (like a lot of things in this country) that uptake varies significantly. After all, there are massive inequalities in wealth (and public charging rollout) across the country, so why would one expect EV adoption to be uniform across the UK?
Stats based upon EV insurance enquiries (Moneysupermarket)
"Other locations featuring in the top 5 list were all in the Southern half of England, including Stevenage, Watford and Chelmsford. On the other end of the scale, EVs are least popular amongst drivers in Sunderland, with only 101 enquiries per 100,000 people in the past year.
The research shows the wealth gap, or the North-South divide as it used to be called, is still very much there, despite claims of levelling up by politicians.
Fact is, lots of people in the Northern half of England, Wales and Scotland, cannot afford a pure electric car – they don’t earn enough.
Looking at typical professions for EV drivers, 10.2% of all car insurance enquiries are for retirees, indicating that most EVs are owned by those no longer working. This is almost twice as much as NHS workers (5.9%), who are the second most likely to own an EV.
Despite the considerable cost of EVs, the data shows that three out of the 10 most popular occupations for EV drivers were from those who are not currently in work (retirees, students and homemakers).
When it comes to jobs it’s interesting that the retired -presumably mainly on generous public sector pensions – are the biggest demographic group interested in EV cars. It also suggests that EVs are best suited to those who only use a car say 3-4 times per week, not daily, making multiple trips, thus flattening the battery faster.
Out of those in employment, the public sector occupations once again highlight how a generous salary of say £65,000 for being a PPE Procurement Manager enables you to drive electric, whilst an NHS Porter has to cycle to work, drive a 7 year old Peugeot diesel, or take the bus – assuming there is one at 5am."
https://insurance-edge.net/2022/08/05/ev-buyers-ar...
Public charging uneven rollout across the UK
"The stark figures will spark fresh concerns that Britain's electric car revolution is being held back by the lack of charging points as well as their uneven distribution.
The figures, published on the Government's own website, show the London boroughs of Hammersmith, Westminster and Chelsea and Fulham alone boast more than one in ten of all UK public chargers.
And Westminster has more than six major cities in the North and Midlands combined."
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/articl...
New BEV registrations - London vs rest of UK
"These data also show that the proportion of new BEV cars registered in inner London compared to other fuel types has outpaced those elsewhere, having grown from 2.0% in 2018 to 35.5% in 2022, at an average rate of 8.4% per year (see Table 1).
In outer London, new BEV car registrations increased from 1.0% in 2018 to 18.0% in 2022, at an average rate of 4.3% per year.
In London as a whole, new BEV car registrations increased from 1.3% in 2018 to 23.2% in 2022, at an average rate of 5.5% per year.
Elsewhere in the UK they increased from 0.6% in 2018 to 15.8% in 2022, at an average rate of 3.8% per year.
The average rate of growth in the proportion of BEV car registrations in inner London between 2018 and 2022 was 2.2 times that of the rest of the UK, and the rate in outer London was 1.1 times that of the rest of the UK."
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/airdrive-images...
otolith said:
sturge7878 said:
Why? It’s just an inferior EV. The solid state battery range and recharging times they are quoting is eye-opening.
https://www.carwow.co.uk/toyota/news/7342/toyota-e...
Maybe Sturge can tell us what he sees in the hydrogen technology that is of interest, but more pertinent, when and if UK hydrogen will offer a true low carbon pathway.
Putting hydrogen in passenger car might make more sense in Japan where access to renewable electricity is far more challenging.
UK hydrogen has a carbon intensity that is currently off the top of the dial.
Reducing this by carbon capture whilst increasing methane consumption presents a motherlode of process/leakage risk that might not actually move the dial downward on carbon whilst at the same time achieving zero progress towards renewability.
And for good measure, pushing the higher cost of that hydrogen onto feckless punters...
Green hydrogen is currently far too expensive for passenger cars, will that ever change?
As for 'exciting' H2 ICE cars, whilst we are all hoping Toyota are going to cram the Yamaha V8 into a sports car, the status quo is actually a 3 cylinder 1.6 litre powered Corolla Cross with undisclosed performance and range.
There are no 'breakthrough' technology pathways that have been identified or documented to meaningfully change that status quo.
https://www.toyota-europe.com/news/2022/prototype-...
I wish I could be more positive about the prospect for hydrogen, the problem is, it just keeps falling over badly when put to the test, not least the implications for safety.
EV might have some significant challenges ahead, but they are not a patch on those that have to be overcome to make hydrogen a true near-term decarbonisation pathway for mass consumption.
CivicDuties said:
BricktopST205 said:
CivicDuties said:
Not a criticism, just an observation - but why would your commuting car/daily runabout be seen as a "second" car? That's literally the main work for most people's cars. I've got a mid-sized petrol estate and a Nissan Leaf with only about 100 miles of range - the Leaf is easily my "first" car - it' does over 90% of our miles I'd say and is used every day. The petrol car is a back up/occasional long drive/occasional load carrying only - very much the second car.
Why don't you just get one ICE car that can do it all and save yourself money on second insurance, tax and MOT? We're a 2 driver household and like to have 2 cars available. We always had 2 cars, even before EV was an option. Running one EV for 7 years as a main daily car has saved us a fortune in running costs.
Edited by CivicDuties on Friday 10th May 09:51
We have two cars and we're not ready for two EVs yet - we need an ICE for those rare times when an EV isn't suitable.
But the ICE car does, by far and away, the least mileage in our household.
I'd like to see what road tax savings I could make by getting rid of the EV, as Bricktop suggests........
Muzzer79 said:
CivicDuties said:
BricktopST205 said:
CivicDuties said:
Not a criticism, just an observation - but why would your commuting car/daily runabout be seen as a "second" car? That's literally the main work for most people's cars. I've got a mid-sized petrol estate and a Nissan Leaf with only about 100 miles of range - the Leaf is easily my "first" car - it' does over 90% of our miles I'd say and is used every day. The petrol car is a back up/occasional long drive/occasional load carrying only - very much the second car.
Why don't you just get one ICE car that can do it all and save yourself money on second insurance, tax and MOT? We're a 2 driver household and like to have 2 cars available. We always had 2 cars, even before EV was an option. Running one EV for 7 years as a main daily car has saved us a fortune in running costs.
Edited by CivicDuties on Friday 10th May 09:51
We have two cars and we're not ready for two EVs yet - we need an ICE for those rare times when an EV isn't suitable.
But the ICE car does, by far and away, the least mileage in our household.
I'd like to see what road tax savings I could make by getting rid of the EV, as Bricktop suggests........
Model 3
Ioniq hybrid
Elise 111R
...in our household.
My wife likes the ioniq's 500 mile tank range because she's worried about the Tesla's range and being caught out.
Despite me repeatedly pointing out that she very rarely does more than 200 miles in a day, and we have our own refuelling station at home.
She's not listening though.
We did 1300 miles in the Tesla in 1 week in April, partly as a way for me to demonstrate that range anxiety isn't really a thing she should be worried about.
Didn't work. She's still not willing to use the Tesla.
The Elise is sadly in the classifieds at the moment due to lack of use.
Ioniq hybrid
Elise 111R
...in our household.
My wife likes the ioniq's 500 mile tank range because she's worried about the Tesla's range and being caught out.
Despite me repeatedly pointing out that she very rarely does more than 200 miles in a day, and we have our own refuelling station at home.
She's not listening though.
We did 1300 miles in the Tesla in 1 week in April, partly as a way for me to demonstrate that range anxiety isn't really a thing she should be worried about.
Didn't work. She's still not willing to use the Tesla.
The Elise is sadly in the classifieds at the moment due to lack of use.
Edited by LowTread on Friday 10th May 10:16
Muzzer79 said:
+1
We have two cars and we're not ready for two EVs yet - we need an ICE for those rare times when an EV isn't suitable.
But the ICE car does, by far and away, the least mileage in our household.
I'd like to see what road tax savings I could make by getting rid of the EV, as Bricktop suggests........
I was referring to the road tax of the second car. Please learn to read but as he pointed out he is a two car family which is fine. The way he worded his initial post was that he just kept the second car there as a spare for long journeys.We have two cars and we're not ready for two EVs yet - we need an ICE for those rare times when an EV isn't suitable.
But the ICE car does, by far and away, the least mileage in our household.
I'd like to see what road tax savings I could make by getting rid of the EV, as Bricktop suggests........
Edited by BricktopST205 on Friday 10th May 10:27
CivicDuties said:
Not a criticism, just an observation - but why would your commuting car/daily runabout be seen as a "second" car? That's literally the main work for most people's cars.
Fair point! Probably just the hierarchy of size/value in my head, nothing rational. I'm in London and we don't commute by car so it's all theoretical for me.BricktopST205 said:
Muzzer79 said:
+1
We have two cars and we're not ready for two EVs yet - we need an ICE for those rare times when an EV isn't suitable.
But the ICE car does, by far and away, the least mileage in our household.
I'd like to see what road tax savings I could make by getting rid of the EV, as Bricktop suggests........
I was referring to the road tax of the second car. Please learn to read but as he pointed out he is a two car family which is fine. The way he worded his initial post was that he just kept the second car there as a spare for long journeys.We have two cars and we're not ready for two EVs yet - we need an ICE for those rare times when an EV isn't suitable.
But the ICE car does, by far and away, the least mileage in our household.
I'd like to see what road tax savings I could make by getting rid of the EV, as Bricktop suggests........
Edited by BricktopST205 on Friday 10th May 10:27
BricktopST205 said:
I was referring to the road tax of the second car. Please learn to read but as he pointed out he is a two car family which is fine. The way he worded his initial post was that he just kept the second car there as a spare for long journeys.
Which depending on the mileage being done in the EV, could easily be more cost effective than having 1 car of the equivalent value of the 2-car solution.Edited by braddo on Friday 10th May 10:42
braddo said:
Which depending on the mileage being done in the EV, could easily be more cost effective than having 1 car of the equivalent value of the 2-car solution.
I could do the same. I have 4 cars. I could buy a Nissan Leaf for 2-3k. My commute is 6 miles and the wife 12 so absolutely tiny. That car would be perfect although soul destroying on the drive home. That costs us £1500 in fuel a year. I could charge at work so in 3-4 years I could break even when factoring extra insurance and servicing. Edited by braddo on Friday 10th May 10:42
Year 5 I would be saving about a grand a year but I am more than happy to spend £83 a month or £41 each to drive something that gives us enjoyment on our daily commute.
I guess it just depends on your priorities.
BricktopST205 said:
braddo said:
Which depending on the mileage being done in the EV, could easily be more cost effective than having 1 car of the equivalent value of the 2-car solution.
I could do the same. I have 4 cars. I could buy a Nissan Leaf for 2-3k. My commute is 6 miles and the wife 12 so absolutely tiny. That car would be perfect although soul destroying on the drive home. That costs us £1500 in fuel a year. I could charge at work so in 3-4 years I could break even when factoring extra insurance and servicing. Edited by braddo on Friday 10th May 10:42
Year 5 I would be saving about a grand a year but I am more than happy to spend £83 a month or £41 each to drive something that gives us enjoyment on our daily commute.
I guess it just depends on your priorities.
raspy said:
Thanks for your thoughts.
Do most people in this country buy 10 year old used cars? I don't know, I couldn't find any stats online to back up your assertion. Maybe it's based upon your own observations in terms of where you live and work? It's likely to vary from place to place I would imagine. I live in a deprived part of outer London yet most of the cars on driveways are under 5 years old, and a lot of them are rather expensive cars. Should I assume that everyone in the country buys cars that are 5 years or younger? That would be a flawed assumption, right?
I slightly misquoted the article, the average age of cars in the UK is 10 years.Do most people in this country buy 10 year old used cars? I don't know, I couldn't find any stats online to back up your assertion. Maybe it's based upon your own observations in terms of where you live and work? It's likely to vary from place to place I would imagine. I live in a deprived part of outer London yet most of the cars on driveways are under 5 years old, and a lot of them are rather expensive cars. Should I assume that everyone in the country buys cars that are 5 years or younger? That would be a flawed assumption, right?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/business-enviro...
BricktopST205 said:
braddo said:
Which depending on the mileage being done in the EV, could easily be more cost effective than having 1 car of the equivalent value of the 2-car solution.
I could do the same. I have 4 cars. I could buy a Nissan Leaf for 2-3k. My commute is 6 miles and the wife 12 so absolutely tiny. That car would be perfect although soul destroying on the drive home. That costs us £1500 in fuel a year. I could charge at work so in 3-4 years I could break even when factoring extra insurance and servicing. Edited by braddo on Friday 10th May 10:42
Year 5 I would be saving about a grand a year but I am more than happy to spend £83 a month or £41 each to drive something that gives us enjoyment on our daily commute.
I guess it just depends on your priorities.
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