EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
irc said:
So why is it OK for China to run coal as backup but we had to close our coal power down?
Who said it was OK? No one has. Why did we close ours down? Because it was loss making and not needed as we were self sufficient in nat gas and are steadily moving to replace that with renewables with nat gas being the fallback. China has coal it can use as a fallback. We have nat gas, which was cheaper than the coal we had left.
The U.K. can also choose to remove coal emissions from our net zero balance sheet rather than closing down industry. So that was a rather obvious choice.
How long are China going to retain domestic coal as their energy backbone? How long will the US use their control of the oil economy as a weapon over other countries? Including the U.K.
And what about exhaust scrubbing technology? Which exhaust is easier to scrub? 500m car exhausts or a few thousand fossil fuel power stations? For some nations the only way to remove vehicle CO2 is to move its production from cars to centralised fossil fuel power stations where it can be scrubbed as well as be produced more efficiently.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-pro...
Out of a total demand of about 9000 TWh, coal supplied about 6000 with hydro and nuclear providing a further 2000 or so and wind & solar accounting for about 1000.
BricktopST205 said:
Maracus said:
The same with petrol or diesel if you are running low. No difference.
Not if you got a petrol can in the back. 
Most cars have 7-9 litres of fuel in the tank when the gauges say zero miles of range. That is more than enough for unplanned diversions.
Something else to bear in mind is that in that scenario of stop/start or diverted traffic, an ICE car's fuel consumption increases while an EV's reduces...
M4cruiser said:
If you really want to see how/why China can make things so cheap then go there and look at their H&S on building sites, in factories, shops etc. You can probably guess, if you hadn't already.
If you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.
Chinese came to Sweden having bought a motorway service area.If you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.
They started construction works, couldn't understand or maybe didn't want to understand why bamboo scaffolding wasn't permitted. Mardy pricks abandoned the project for ages.
Won't even start on instances of IPT and similar unacceptable behaviour.
M4cruiser said:
If you really want to see how/why China can make things so cheap then go there and look at their H&S on building sites, in factories, shops etc. You can probably guess, if you hadn't already.
If you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.
Can’t even have uncle Billy dying on a building site because of wokeIf you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.
Any tariffs would have to be sizeable to be worthwhile as many of the Chinese EVs are not only cheaper to buy, but also better than those available from some legacy European manufacturers.
There will also be a way round whatever is introduced such as doing 99% of the manufacture in the far east then attaching the wheels in Europe as final assembly.
There will also be a way round whatever is introduced such as doing 99% of the manufacture in the far east then attaching the wheels in Europe as final assembly.
FiF said:
M4cruiser said:
If you really want to see how/why China can make things so cheap then go there and look at their H&S on building sites, in factories, shops etc. You can probably guess, if you hadn't already.
If you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.
Chinese came to Sweden having bought a motorway service area.If you want to know why UK makes things so expensive then have a look at the H&S regime.
They started construction works, couldn't understand or maybe didn't want to understand why bamboo scaffolding wasn't permitted. Mardy pricks abandoned the project for ages.
Won't even start on instances of IPT and similar unacceptable behaviour.
braddo said:
BricktopST205 said:
Maracus said:
The same with petrol or diesel if you are running low. No difference.
Not if you got a petrol can in the back. Most cars have 7-9 litres of fuel in the tank when the gauges say zero miles of range. That is more than enough for unplanned diversions.
Something else to bear in mind is that in that scenario of stop/start or diverted traffic, an ICE car's fuel consumption increases while an EV's reduces...
I've never run the current car anywhere close but the last one I managed 9 miles past 0 miles remaining.
[1] To be fair if you're doing a long trip in the depths of winter you should anyway.
Fastdruid said:
braddo said:
BricktopST205 said:
Maracus said:
The same with petrol or diesel if you are running low. No difference.
Not if you got a petrol can in the back. Most cars have 7-9 litres of fuel in the tank when the gauges say zero miles of range. That is more than enough for unplanned diversions.
Something else to bear in mind is that in that scenario of stop/start or diverted traffic, an ICE car's fuel consumption increases while an EV's reduces...
I've never run the current car anywhere close but the last one I managed 9 miles past 0 miles remaining.
[1] To be fair if you're doing a long trip in the depths of winter you should anyway.
So running out of charge due to delays is in real life not really a realistic concern.
The other scenario is where you are diverted, taking in extra time and distance, a far less common scenario in my experience.
If you were diverted say an extra 50 miles (which is VERY unlikely, most unexpected traffic incidents invoke waiting rather than long diversions) then surely there would be a charger somewhere along those 50 miles? An extra 50 miles of charge takes around 5 minutes, hardly an issue when you’ve already had an hours extra driving added to your journey, and you’d itibably want a short break anyway.
If you’ve ever been caught in a significant stop start tailback in a petrol car mind you, you can be in real trouble, having to turn off heating air con etc while you’re stationary and your fuel consumption goes up massively.
I commonly plan to get home with less than 20 miles range left. I’ve been caught up in delays on the M25 and other motorways several times, mainly due to accidents. I’ve never come close to running out of charge.
As usual the truth is almost 100% opposite to the internet memes.
And yes, sealed spare cans of fuel do stink!
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
I did assume the poster kept his spare can in the boot rather than inside the cabin.
Try driving 260 miles with a petrol lawn mower in the boot because the one at your house won’t start - and of course I had to remove the parcel shelf to get the sodding thing in. 
Nowadays I have a set of 10L Jerry can type things which don't off gas. I'll sling a pair in the back of the old Rangie during the shooting season as some of the places you end up aren't exactly awash with petrol stations. I learned that lesson when pulling into a petrol station one early Friday evening only to be told that Stuart would be back late Monday morning to catch the rush hour!!!
The reason I ended up investing in some good metal ones was due to a Le Mans run one year. Always kept a boggo 5L plastic can of fuel in the Griff. After 5 hours of driving at 100+ in the glorious French weather, upon arrival and the unpacking of the boot the full petrol can was discovered as an amorphous blob that had shaped itself to the boot floor via gravity and the heat from the exhausts directly under the floor. I suspect that if the can hadn't been brimmed then there wouldn't have been sufficient liquid to keep the tank cool enough nor to limited the pressure and the car would have done an impression of a meteor somewhere south of Rouen.
The whole running out of fuel thing tends to be one of those 'dumb people' problems. Most people learn how to not end up in that situation within a few years of passing their test and the blokes you see walking to a petrol station with an empty can always look to be quite a long way from smart. And you can already see the same people having the same problem with EVs, mindlessly relaying on the computer in the car to set where they will fill up based on a simple algo that doesn't account for any of the bespoke data or conditions so is already dumping an excess of people all needing a large refill, all at the same place, all at the same time. Meanwhile those with a brain and used to using it evaluate the whole situation and chose to not put themselves in the situation the dimwits keep finding themselves in.
John87 said:
Any tariffs would have to be sizeable to be worthwhile as many of the Chinese EVs are not only cheaper to buy, but also better than those available from some legacy European manufacturers.
There will also be a way round whatever is introduced such as doing 99% of the manufacture in the far east then attaching the wheels in Europe as final assembly.
They already have a raft of legislation and tariffs to try and keep the Chinese produced goods at bay. And they genuinely believed that ever increasing legislation on technology would also keep the inferior Chinese out. There will also be a way round whatever is introduced such as doing 99% of the manufacture in the far east then attaching the wheels in Europe as final assembly.
Germany has spent the last 20 years teaching the Chinese how to build cars while thinking the whole time that they were smarter and those little Chinese chappies would always need to suckle at the teats of the Motherland for guidance. The same error of arrogance that time and again the inbred German families that run the amalgamation of states that only recently even became a real country just keeps making again and again.
They took some easy money to teach them how to build quality cars. Meanwhile they spent vast sums in the EU lobbying to keep the inferior foreigners out and just sat there in the genuine belief that as always they can just keep paying money to the political machine who in turn will keep a closed shop so they can keep charging their customers more and more and more.
They saw the Chinese securing all the key mineral rights for the EV economy that entities such as the U.K. and EU were demanding. Our politicians having been assured by their domestic manufacturers that enforcing technology would keep out crappy Asian ICE not made by superior European manufacturers. They watched as the Chinese created the largest automotive battery manufacturing base on the planet. And they genuinely thought that despite being the industry that has struggled for decades to get things like windscreen wipers or lights to work properly when control is handed from the operator to a computer, despite all that home evidence and being able to see how much more technologically advanced China had made itself from decades of stealing IP and hiring any Western brain they wanted at any time, despite that the European manufacturers actually thought their product would be superior and their lobbying spend would protect their closed shop.
That's obviously all failed and even the German manufacturers have realised that the Chinese can build just as good a product but out manufacturer them at every single twist and turn and massively out compete on cost.
What's worse is that unlike the French automotive industry, the German one has been favouring Chinese consumer tastes over the Western. For the last decade or so much of the premium goods rolling out of German manufacturers has been tailored for the Asian consumer at the expense of the Western and they suddenly find themselves under pressure in their Asian markets and needing those Western consumers more.
So what do these European manufacturers do? Do they face the Asian problem head on and seek to compete in a free market to win consumers over using price and quality? Of course not, they resort to funnelling money into buying off politicians which means funding the more right wing parties, they resort to lobbying for ever more complex legislation that just keeps costing the consumer more and more and they fall back on the all time favourite of dirty propaganda. You can barely stifle a laugh at their stereotypical stupidity at devoutly believing they can engineer and defraud their way out of the situation they're responsible for making. And you can barely believe the farce of things like the 'efuel' comedy! 80 years on and they still resort to the concept of Wunderwaffe as a means to save them. You couldn't really make this up.
France has trodden a slightly different path. It didn't move a load of factory output to China and it doesn't look to have been promoting an anti China propaganda machine to distort consumer perception. Nor do they appear to have the arrogance to believe that making a hugely expensive and very limited fuel product in the other side of the planet and using it to convince stupid people they will be able to buy this and thus getting them onto the lobby and propaganda machine as foot soldiers is some kind of grown up solution. Instead they do look to have worked more on trying to be able to compete and not just on price but desirability. They have that cheap Dacia EV coming out and I suspect that R5 EV could end up adorning suburban driveways in a manner the electric mini hoped it would.
And the U.K.? We don't manufacture cars. It's not our problem. What we want is for all the manufacturers to be slitting their own and each other's throats to try and win our business. We don't want tariffs, stifled competition, fat premiums on all the goods, manipulated used values to support bloated balance sheets and replacement parts sold at 10x their fair value to pay out big divies to the shareholders.
We're capitalists who find ourselves in 2024 with almost no skin in the game so let's not go wasting a once in a lifetime national opportunity. Let's not go thinking that we still manufacture cars when we are nothing more than an importer of completed cars or car parts for heavily subsidised local assembly. Let's not think that we have to be down in the pit with all those car manufacturers. We aren't the gladiators or the bears, the dogs or cockerels. We're the spectators, we are the customers and we should be in our seats looming into the pit be entertained as these car makers slug it out.
All these firms have been sucking at the taxpayer's teats for decades with their subsidies, inflated prices from legislation. It's time for them to grow up, leave home, learn to fend for themselves. The U.K. having killed off its own industry last century finds itself in the absolutely beautiful position where we can let capitalism rip on this industry and watch them fight like true corporates, watch proper shareholder risk at work, watch true market pricing in action and set our own rules for things such as data harvesting and the tracking and monitoring via car systems etc.
I genuinely want to see an end to the turgid output of a dull industry that is bloated on tax payer no rise that are used to inflate consumer prices all while pretending to be free marketeers and paying shareholders who are not taking any risk. I want to see capitalism come back and for these firms to be released to see who dies and who survives.
DonkeyApple said:
They already have a raft of legislation and tariffs to try and keep the Chinese produced goods at bay. And they genuinely believed that ever increasing legislation on technology would also keep the inferior Chinese out.
Germany has spent the last 20 years teaching the Chinese how to build cars while thinking the whole time that they were smarter and those little Chinese chappies would always need to suckle at the teats of the Motherland for guidance. The same error of arrogance that time and again the inbred German families that run the amalgamation of states that only recently even became a real country just keeps making again and again.
They took some easy money to teach them how to build quality cars. Meanwhile they spent vast sums in the EU lobbying to keep the inferior foreigners out and just sat there in the genuine belief that as always they can just keep paying money to the political machine who in turn will keep a closed shop so they can keep charging their customers more and more and more.
They saw the Chinese securing all the key mineral rights for the EV economy that entities such as the U.K. and EU were demanding. Our politicians having been assured by their domestic manufacturers that enforcing technology would keep out crappy Asian ICE not made by superior European manufacturers. They watched as the Chinese created the largest automotive battery manufacturing base on the planet. And they genuinely thought that despite being the industry that has struggled for decades to get things like windscreen wipers or lights to work properly when control is handed from the operator to a computer, despite all that home evidence and being able to see how much more technologically advanced China had made itself from decades of stealing IP and hiring any Western brain they wanted at any time, despite that the European manufacturers actually thought their product would be superior and their lobbying spend would protect their closed shop.
That's obviously all failed and even the German manufacturers have realised that the Chinese can build just as good a product but out manufacturer them at every single twist and turn and massively out compete on cost.
What's worse is that unlike the French automotive industry, the German one has been favouring Chinese consumer tastes over the Western. For the last decade or so much of the premium goods rolling out of German manufacturers has been tailored for the Asian consumer at the expense of the Western and they suddenly find themselves under pressure in their Asian markets and needing those Western consumers more.
So what do these European manufacturers do? Do they face the Asian problem head on and seek to compete in a free market to win consumers over using price and quality? Of course not, they resort to funnelling money into buying off politicians which means funding the more right wing parties, they resort to lobbying for ever more complex legislation that just keeps costing the consumer more and more and they fall back on the all time favourite of dirty propaganda. You can barely stifle a laugh at their stereotypical stupidity at devoutly believing they can engineer and defraud their way out of the situation they're responsible for making. And you can barely believe the farce of things like the 'efuel' comedy! 80 years on and they still resort to the concept of Wunderwaffe as a means to save them. You couldn't really make this up.
France has trodden a slightly different path. It didn't move a load of factory output to China and it doesn't look to have been promoting an anti China propaganda machine to distort consumer perception. Nor do they appear to have the arrogance to believe that making a hugely expensive and very limited fuel product in the other side of the planet and using it to convince stupid people they will be able to buy this and thus getting them onto the lobby and propaganda machine as foot soldiers is some kind of grown up solution. Instead they do look to have worked more on trying to be able to compete and not just on price but desirability. They have that cheap Dacia EV coming out and I suspect that R5 EV could end up adorning suburban driveways in a manner the electric mini hoped it would.
And the U.K.? We don't manufacture cars. It's not our problem. What we want is for all the manufacturers to be slitting their own and each other's throats to try and win our business. We don't want tariffs, stifled competition, fat premiums on all the goods, manipulated used values to support bloated balance sheets and replacement parts sold at 10x their fair value to pay out big divies to the shareholders.
We're capitalists who find ourselves in 2024 with almost no skin in the game so let's not go wasting a once in a lifetime national opportunity. Let's not go thinking that we still manufacture cars when we are nothing more than an importer of completed cars or car parts for heavily subsidised local assembly. Let's not think that we have to be down in the pit with all those car manufacturers. We aren't the gladiators or the bears, the dogs or cockerels. We're the spectators, we are the customers and we should be in our seats looming into the pit be entertained as these car makers slug it out.
All these firms have been sucking at the taxpayer's teats for decades with their subsidies, inflated prices from legislation. It's time for them to grow up, leave home, learn to fend for themselves. The U.K. having killed off its own industry last century finds itself in the absolutely beautiful position where we can let capitalism rip on this industry and watch them fight like true corporates, watch proper shareholder risk at work, watch true market pricing in action and set our own rules for things such as data harvesting and the tracking and monitoring via car systems etc.
I genuinely want to see an end to the turgid output of a dull industry that is bloated on tax payer no rise that are used to inflate consumer prices all while pretending to be free marketeers and paying shareholders who are not taking any risk. I want to see capitalism come back and for these firms to be released to see who dies and who survives.
I like the imagery but I see an uncouth mob not a bourgeoisie and Millwall v West Ham not Greeks battling Persians. And underpinning it all, we're broke, hopelessly indebted and governed by people not fit to run a burger van.Germany has spent the last 20 years teaching the Chinese how to build cars while thinking the whole time that they were smarter and those little Chinese chappies would always need to suckle at the teats of the Motherland for guidance. The same error of arrogance that time and again the inbred German families that run the amalgamation of states that only recently even became a real country just keeps making again and again.
They took some easy money to teach them how to build quality cars. Meanwhile they spent vast sums in the EU lobbying to keep the inferior foreigners out and just sat there in the genuine belief that as always they can just keep paying money to the political machine who in turn will keep a closed shop so they can keep charging their customers more and more and more.
They saw the Chinese securing all the key mineral rights for the EV economy that entities such as the U.K. and EU were demanding. Our politicians having been assured by their domestic manufacturers that enforcing technology would keep out crappy Asian ICE not made by superior European manufacturers. They watched as the Chinese created the largest automotive battery manufacturing base on the planet. And they genuinely thought that despite being the industry that has struggled for decades to get things like windscreen wipers or lights to work properly when control is handed from the operator to a computer, despite all that home evidence and being able to see how much more technologically advanced China had made itself from decades of stealing IP and hiring any Western brain they wanted at any time, despite that the European manufacturers actually thought their product would be superior and their lobbying spend would protect their closed shop.
That's obviously all failed and even the German manufacturers have realised that the Chinese can build just as good a product but out manufacturer them at every single twist and turn and massively out compete on cost.
What's worse is that unlike the French automotive industry, the German one has been favouring Chinese consumer tastes over the Western. For the last decade or so much of the premium goods rolling out of German manufacturers has been tailored for the Asian consumer at the expense of the Western and they suddenly find themselves under pressure in their Asian markets and needing those Western consumers more.
So what do these European manufacturers do? Do they face the Asian problem head on and seek to compete in a free market to win consumers over using price and quality? Of course not, they resort to funnelling money into buying off politicians which means funding the more right wing parties, they resort to lobbying for ever more complex legislation that just keeps costing the consumer more and more and they fall back on the all time favourite of dirty propaganda. You can barely stifle a laugh at their stereotypical stupidity at devoutly believing they can engineer and defraud their way out of the situation they're responsible for making. And you can barely believe the farce of things like the 'efuel' comedy! 80 years on and they still resort to the concept of Wunderwaffe as a means to save them. You couldn't really make this up.
France has trodden a slightly different path. It didn't move a load of factory output to China and it doesn't look to have been promoting an anti China propaganda machine to distort consumer perception. Nor do they appear to have the arrogance to believe that making a hugely expensive and very limited fuel product in the other side of the planet and using it to convince stupid people they will be able to buy this and thus getting them onto the lobby and propaganda machine as foot soldiers is some kind of grown up solution. Instead they do look to have worked more on trying to be able to compete and not just on price but desirability. They have that cheap Dacia EV coming out and I suspect that R5 EV could end up adorning suburban driveways in a manner the electric mini hoped it would.
And the U.K.? We don't manufacture cars. It's not our problem. What we want is for all the manufacturers to be slitting their own and each other's throats to try and win our business. We don't want tariffs, stifled competition, fat premiums on all the goods, manipulated used values to support bloated balance sheets and replacement parts sold at 10x their fair value to pay out big divies to the shareholders.
We're capitalists who find ourselves in 2024 with almost no skin in the game so let's not go wasting a once in a lifetime national opportunity. Let's not go thinking that we still manufacture cars when we are nothing more than an importer of completed cars or car parts for heavily subsidised local assembly. Let's not think that we have to be down in the pit with all those car manufacturers. We aren't the gladiators or the bears, the dogs or cockerels. We're the spectators, we are the customers and we should be in our seats looming into the pit be entertained as these car makers slug it out.
All these firms have been sucking at the taxpayer's teats for decades with their subsidies, inflated prices from legislation. It's time for them to grow up, leave home, learn to fend for themselves. The U.K. having killed off its own industry last century finds itself in the absolutely beautiful position where we can let capitalism rip on this industry and watch them fight like true corporates, watch proper shareholder risk at work, watch true market pricing in action and set our own rules for things such as data harvesting and the tracking and monitoring via car systems etc.
I genuinely want to see an end to the turgid output of a dull industry that is bloated on tax payer no rise that are used to inflate consumer prices all while pretending to be free marketeers and paying shareholders who are not taking any risk. I want to see capitalism come back and for these firms to be released to see who dies and who survives.
Someone will say of course, we're not, we're the sixth biggest economy in the world. Going down... But that will be typed from an office in Moorgate or a home garden office in Moreton-in-Marsh. The place increasingly feels like a dump unless my eyes deceive me on my travels and there are no potholes, shopping centres dominated by pound shops, charity outlets, William Hill and Greggs, cheap reliable transport exists for all and businesses are thriving. Meanwhile the public sector operates like a well oiled machine and the public have banished obesity and sloth to the extent a walk down the beach will be like strolling through a 1930s German propaganda film.
Yes I am a cynic but I can spot an Emperor's clothes when I see them. Cars are just part of the facade that everything is ok.
Edited by Unreal on Wednesday 15th May 08:28
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