EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
BricktopST205 said:
I am not in that 90% so it doesn't interest me. The thread title is "EVs... no one wants them". I look at this from my own circumstances and base everything on that.
That doesn't make any sense. You have to base everything on the data. You might want to stick a radish up your arse and dance down the high street singing a song but that doesn't mean everyone else wants to. New EVs are selling and so are used ones. Because neither you or I for that matter have purchased one does not somehow bend reality.
BricktopST205 said:
Mainly because I couldn't be bothered to work it out because charging costs can vary wildly. I simply put the "Not including fuel" as a detriment for the ICE. Considering that the average motorist does 7k miles a year and £8000 in fuel is around 40-45k miles it would take 6 and half years before you would brake even with the EV on the assumption you could charge for free.
I am sure your 24k miles a year in a car that probably was a tax right-off is saving you considerable money but for the vast majority of punters this isn't the case when they are barely doing a third of that and the value of their EV is dropping like a stone.
Your desperation to try to win an argument looks pathetic.I am sure your 24k miles a year in a car that probably was a tax right-off is saving you considerable money but for the vast majority of punters this isn't the case when they are barely doing a third of that and the value of their EV is dropping like a stone.
Remember what has been said? The vast majority of new car sales are financed, so the finance company takes any excess depreciation hit, not the new car buyer.
I won't write any more because you struggle to deal with more than one point being made in any single post.
Tigger2050 said:
Ahh these climate agenda organisations like to obfuscate don't they? They talk about China's renewable energy 'capacity' not generation.
Let's see, the UK's installed wind 'capacity' was 30 gig 18 months ago, must be more now. So I checked the UK wind generation right now, this second, and wind is generating 1.15 gig of electricity!
Obfuscate is a new and popular word for you, where did you learn that? Let's see, the UK's installed wind 'capacity' was 30 gig 18 months ago, must be more now. So I checked the UK wind generation right now, this second, and wind is generating 1.15 gig of electricity!
Cherry-picking would also be a good example of obfuscation.
Average continuous power from wind is currently running at about '10 gig'.
As a result, average carbon intensity of all UK electricity is currently at 160 g/kWh or 35 g/km for EV charging.
INCLUDING CHARGING LOSSES!!!!
braddo said:
Your desperation to try to win an argument looks pathetic.
Remember what has been said? The vast majority of new car sales are financed, so the finance company takes any excess depreciation hit, not the new car buyer.
I won't write any more because you struggle to deal with more than one point being made in any single post.
The person paying the finance takes the depreciation hit not the finance company. It is the most expensive way to own a vehicle period. Some people got lucky in the past couple of years because they based their algorithms on ICE vehicles previously. That will not happen now. Remember what has been said? The vast majority of new car sales are financed, so the finance company takes any excess depreciation hit, not the new car buyer.
I won't write any more because you struggle to deal with more than one point being made in any single post.
BricktopST205 said:
Mainly because I couldn't be bothered to work it out because charging costs can vary wildly. I simply put the "Not including fuel" as a detriment for the ICE. Considering that the average motorist does 7k miles a year and £8000 in fuel is around 40-45k miles it would take 6 and half years before you would brake even with the EV on the assumption you could charge for free.
I am sure your 24k miles a year in a car that probably was a tax right-off is saving you considerable money but for the vast majority of punters this isn't the case when they are barely doing a third of that and the value of their EV is dropping like a stone.
Spellcheck broken there?.I am sure your 24k miles a year in a car that probably was a tax right-off is saving you considerable money but for the vast majority of punters this isn't the case when they are barely doing a third of that and the value of their EV is dropping like a stone.
Tindersticks said:
It’s Chinese isn’t it. Can’t remember the name.
Cars like this are the reason why the Yanks are increasing tariffs. And you can see why.
It's the Mercedes EQXX concept car that was used to show how 1000 km of range can be achieved from a 100 kWh battery for a normal cross-Europe journey.Cars like this are the reason why the Yanks are increasing tariffs. And you can see why.
And they were successful on their first attempt, made all the more impressive by starting from Stuttgart on a chilly April morning in 2022 and ending up in Nice the next day, averaging 52 mph, with maximum cruising speeds of 85 mph.
Here is the nasty bad boy battery in all its glory.
GT9 said:
No it's not available to buy, 2025 is supposedly when we will see the AMG vision production car.
Expect a fatter Taycan rival, although the manufacturers are edging closer to something like the car I posted.
I appreciate that the transition we are seeing to EV is messy and uncomfortable for some.
I think quite a few of the posts on this thread are lamenting the fact we can't simply arrive at the destination without the journey.
That is why people like me are waiting for the others to do the messy part which is where I come in when it is finished. I am more annoyed at OEM's shovelling crap at stupid prices to get there rather than actual people buying them. Expect a fatter Taycan rival, although the manufacturers are edging closer to something like the car I posted.
I appreciate that the transition we are seeing to EV is messy and uncomfortable for some.
I think quite a few of the posts on this thread are lamenting the fact we can't simply arrive at the destination without the journey.
BricktopST205 said:
Mikebentley said:
Curious why the calculations should be “Not including fuel”? The fuel savings can be significant. I do 24k per year in my EV and it costs me about £16 per week in fuel. A petrol or diesel car would be about £100 per week. This is without considering what a great drive my EV is and never the need to visit filthy fuel stations. This is brought home to me once a month when the Defender needs its £120 drink.
Mainly because I couldn't be bothered to work it out because charging costs can vary wildly. I simply put the "Not including fuel" as a detriment for the ICE. Considering that the average motorist does 7k miles a year and £8000 in fuel is around 40-45k miles it would take 6 and half years before you would brake even with the EV on the assumption you could charge for free.I am sure your 24k miles a year in a car that probably was a tax right-off is saving you considerable money but for the vast majority of punters this isn't the case when they are barely doing a third of that and the value of their EV is dropping like a stone.
I would though consider swapping the wife’s 2022 Defender to EV though as they really are that good.
BricktopST205 said:
The person paying the finance takes the depreciation hit not the finance company. It is the most expensive way to own a vehicle period. Some people got lucky in the past couple of years because they based their algorithms on ICE vehicles previously. That will not happen now.
If the lender got their formula correct. The key with PCP is that you need to guess what the value of the asset will be at year 3 as that is critical to the product. Except you obviously don't guess that value at all, you decide what it will be and then manipulate supply to ensure you achieve that value. That's the joy of never actually selling the asset but retaining it. What's happened with EVs is that they got it wrong. They used ICE depreciation data, failed to account for the huge BIK element and also failed to realise that the buyers of 3 year old EVs weren't going to be the same general cross section of consumer numpties but consist of an above average number of people who actually take 5 minutes to contemplate the concept of fair value and not being remotely interested in paying another punter's tax bill. On top of that, they didn't realise they wouldn't want a load of EVs sitting in an air field while they tried to manipulate supply to force higher used prices. And the final kicker was they never noticed that they had a traiter in their midst, an EV vendor who wasn't keeping their cars on their balance sheet so could dump new prices on a whim because the knock on loss on used values wasn't their problem but the owners.
They've spent the last 6 months getting their finance formula right so now we are back to the first user paying all the depreciation and hoping they can stiff the second owner with a higher price through supply manipulation but that doesn't look so cut and dried. And while they've been doing that they've been whinging like babies to their local governments begging for some free money from tax payers to make up for their mistake because they haven't the balls to ask the shareholders to pay.
CivicDuties said:
My EV looks like a moderately surprised frog. The animal, I mean. Hang on, great idea, I should give it a wrap in Kermit green.
Truth is most EVs look like *cars*, because that's what they are - a lot are entirely indistinguishable from ICE cars because they share the same body as as ICE stablemante. And the only one I can think of with skinny wheels is the BMW i3.
But sure, let's carry on with the asinine "image" objections. Wouldn't mind betting KingGary is straining at the bit to call them "milkfloats"...
Not at all. If your EV is the Tesla I’m thinking of it’s MoominPappaTruth is most EVs look like *cars*, because that's what they are - a lot are entirely indistinguishable from ICE cars because they share the same body as as ICE stablemante. And the only one I can think of with skinny wheels is the BMW i3.
But sure, let's carry on with the asinine "image" objections. Wouldn't mind betting KingGary is straining at the bit to call them "milkfloats"...
Edited by KingGary on Friday 17th May 18:19
CivicDuties said:
GT9 said:
KingGary said:
Which explains why most EVs look like worn bars of soap, shod with bicycle wheels.
So do aircraft.The beauty in the eye-of-the-beholder thing only applies for as long as those eyes can see.
Aerodynamics will in all probability remain forever important.
I predict future generations will see beauty in letting Mother Nature tell us how cars should look.
Truth is most EVs look like *cars*, because that's what they are - a lot are entirely indistinguishable from ICE cars because they share the same body as as ICE stablemante. And the only one I can think of with skinny wheels is the BMW i3.
But sure, let's carry on with the asinine "image" objections. Wouldn't mind betting KingGary is straining at the bit to call them "milkfloats"...
BricktopST205 said:
Obviously to buy now the petrol is worth more than the electric that is because it has a better value because it has depreciated less. Not sure what you are trying to point out with that. Apart from you would have more capital now by just buying another ICE instead of the EV.
I am not saying used EV's are bad value however but someone has to take that hit buying new. Especially going forward now the finance companies are not going to have their pants caught down again.
Specific figures aside, the valid general point being made is that EVs took a sudden hit when Covid & Putin conspired to come together and put up the cost of electricity by a few hundred percent. So someone buying a Leaf for £30K in 2012 and selling in 2016 may have done a lot better than someone buying a Leaf for £30K in 2019 and selling in 2023I am not saying used EV's are bad value however but someone has to take that hit buying new. Especially going forward now the finance companies are not going to have their pants caught down again.
BricktopST205 said:
The person paying the finance takes the depreciation hit not the finance company. It is the most expensive way to own a vehicle period. Some people got lucky in the past couple of years because they based their algorithms on ICE vehicles previously. That will not happen now.
Again, you are missing key parts of arguments. I said 'excess' depreciation is what the finance company picks up.
The new car buyer pays fixed monthlies irrespective of whether that car is ICE/hybrid/EV and if a particular car has tanked value at end of the finance period, that's a problem for the finance company, not the person who actually used the car.
braddo said:
Again, you are missing key parts of arguments.
I said 'excess' depreciation is what the finance company picks up.
The new car buyer pays fixed monthlies irrespective of whether that car is ICE/hybrid/EV and if a particular car has tanked value at end of the finance period, that's a problem for the finance company, not the person who actually used the car.
For the most part the finance companies gets it right though. Even with "Excess" depreciation considered you are 99% better paying cash with an unsecured loan then selling the car on after. I said 'excess' depreciation is what the finance company picks up.
The new car buyer pays fixed monthlies irrespective of whether that car is ICE/hybrid/EV and if a particular car has tanked value at end of the finance period, that's a problem for the finance company, not the person who actually used the car.
PCP has always just been an easy target because people just look at the monthlies. Dealers don't even want you to pay cash anymore. When I went to buy my last car they were pushing finance on me like no tomorrow to the point they almost treated me like dirt because I wanted to pay cash because ultimately it was less money for them.
PCP isn't this magical thing that gets you into a brand new car cheap. You would be delusional to think that for the most part. Yes you do get stonking deals now and again but just like a casino the house always wins in the end.
KingGary said:
Mikebentley said:
Yep skinny tyres on my Smart #1 to handle the 270bhp rear drive. Oh no it in fact has 235/45 R19 99V Dunlop SP Sportmaxx tyres. Another EV trope dispelled.
Lucky man.As far as EVs go that’s sort of the point. They work for lots of people and would actually work perfectly fine in their current iterations for a great many more if they could stop reading the Daily Fail etc. Most of the sceptics on here when you dig down are driving cars with values between £5k and £10k or less. They base their arguments on the price of EVs when they really can’t afford a new car of any sort.
Mikebentley said:
Not luck hard work. It’s I think due to the fact I don’t envy what anyone else has I just think fair play to them. With so much in life I think if you want stuff work hard and pay for it and if it works for you go for it.
As far as EVs go that’s sort of the point. They work for lots of people and would actually work perfectly fine in their current iterations for a great many more if they could stop reading the Daily Fail etc. Most of the sceptics on here when you dig down are driving cars with values between £5k and £10k or less. They base their arguments on the price of EVs when they really can’t afford a new car of any sort.
When you work hard though to buy something which value is only second to your house I want it to retain at least some of its value though. Buying brand new cars is generally stupid when you really think about it but the drop in EV's is hard to stomach as a private buyer.As far as EVs go that’s sort of the point. They work for lots of people and would actually work perfectly fine in their current iterations for a great many more if they could stop reading the Daily Fail etc. Most of the sceptics on here when you dig down are driving cars with values between £5k and £10k or less. They base their arguments on the price of EVs when they really can’t afford a new car of any sort.
If I had bought a Taycan for 120k out of my own pocket as some sort of retirement gift to find out it is worth 50 grand now 18 months later I would be quite annoyed to say the least.
I would have never bought a brand new car last year if it had the same residuals as some EV's even though I would most likely keep the car for a long time.
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