How the hell do people afford cars these days?
Discussion
Superflow said:
As people enter middle age their parents start dropping dead often leaving them property worth a lot of money.An example is a couple we know her father died and they sold the house to the tune of £500k and subsequently placed £100k of metal on their driveway seemingly overnight to people not in the know.
Another lady we know split from husband during covid works part time as teacher and has two daughters the eldest has just been put into a fee paying school and she drives an almost new BMW X model she told us her parents paid which is fair enough.
I see naive people fawning over the expensive possessions of others and often they wrongly assume that these people must be a combination of hard working/astute/intelligent in order to acquire things when mostly they’ve been the beneficiary of a combination of good luck, inheritance, gifts, nepotism, social climbing, Governmental incompetence (in the form of Covid bailouts) or are criminal in some way.Another lady we know split from husband during covid works part time as teacher and has two daughters the eldest has just been put into a fee paying school and she drives an almost new BMW X model she told us her parents paid which is fair enough.
How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
Franco5 said:
I see naive people fawning over the expensive possessions of others and often they wrongly assume that these people must be a combination of hard working/astute/intelligent in order to acquire things when mostly they’ve been the beneficiary of a combination of good luck, inheritance, gifts, nepotism, social climbing, Governmental incompetence (in the form of Covid bailouts) or are criminal in some way.
How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
That feels like a pretty sad world you live in. How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
Franco5 said:
I see naive people fawning over the expensive possessions of others and often they wrongly assume that these people must be a combination of hard working/astute/intelligent in order to acquire things when mostly they’ve been the beneficiary of a combination of good luck, inheritance, gifts, nepotism, social climbing, Governmental incompetence (in the form of Covid bailouts) or are criminal in some way.
How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
I couldn't disagree more. I know several good, generous, respectful, family oriented successful rich people. How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
10% of people I work with (partners) are multimillionaires. Okay you get some egotistical people, but majority worked hard to get there and are humble. I know they've helped me a lot.
I have a friend who owns a global property business and is the wealthiest person I know (his run around car is a DB7) and he's incredibly generous and has helped many young folks advance their careers. Likewise, I know dozens of wealthy business owners who have done well locally.
There are many famous billionaires too who arent a
holes. Look at Mackenzie Scott, Satya Nadella etc I think you need to take some risks and widen your circle of friends/acquaintances. It takes ambition and resilience to 'move up the chain' but there's a whole world out there. You don't need to trample on people to be successful anymore.
Franco5 said:
Superflow said:
As people enter middle age their parents start dropping dead often leaving them property worth a lot of money.An example is a couple we know her father died and they sold the house to the tune of £500k and subsequently placed £100k of metal on their driveway seemingly overnight to people not in the know.
Another lady we know split from husband during covid works part time as teacher and has two daughters the eldest has just been put into a fee paying school and she drives an almost new BMW X model she told us her parents paid which is fair enough.
I see naive people fawning over the expensive possessions of others and often they wrongly assume that these people must be a combination of hard working/astute/intelligent in order to acquire things when mostly they’ve been the beneficiary of a combination of good luck, inheritance, gifts, nepotism, social climbing, Governmental incompetence (in the form of Covid bailouts) or are criminal in some way.Another lady we know split from husband during covid works part time as teacher and has two daughters the eldest has just been put into a fee paying school and she drives an almost new BMW X model she told us her parents paid which is fair enough.
How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
There will always be a criminal element who are successful but the vast majority of successful people pay their taxes and put in a hard shift day in day out.The issue now is what the government do with your tax but that is for another debate.
Not sure how people afford it on a minimum wage household to be honest, even used car prices right now are insane and buying a £1k banger is most likely going to cost you £500+ every MOT to keep it on the road.
We have 2 cars at the moment, a new Corsa on lease for £260 per month and an MX-5 that I bought with cash to learn about cars/track for lols.
If we had waited 3-4 months we could have bought a used car outright (household income is 90k before taxes) but in all honesty we didn't really care, £260 per month isn't an issue and we are intended on buying the car once the lease is up and pretty much keep it as the "forever" car, they are hella reliable if you just look after it so I don't see why we can't run it until it hits 150k+ miles.
Would I lease a car again? Nah, prob not. If we wanted another car for whatever reason it would be a case of save up a lump sum, take out an interest free credit card and buy it out right with them combined. Basically a zero interest loan we get to manage ourselves.
I believe my wife wants to buy a bigger car in a few years that will be used for holidays/long distance type stuff, the Corsa is a little bit small/uncomfortable if you have to sit in it for 4 hours. Sounds like a good idea to me, means you're spreading wear and tear across 2 vehicles rather than ragging 1 to death.
We have 2 cars at the moment, a new Corsa on lease for £260 per month and an MX-5 that I bought with cash to learn about cars/track for lols.
If we had waited 3-4 months we could have bought a used car outright (household income is 90k before taxes) but in all honesty we didn't really care, £260 per month isn't an issue and we are intended on buying the car once the lease is up and pretty much keep it as the "forever" car, they are hella reliable if you just look after it so I don't see why we can't run it until it hits 150k+ miles.
Would I lease a car again? Nah, prob not. If we wanted another car for whatever reason it would be a case of save up a lump sum, take out an interest free credit card and buy it out right with them combined. Basically a zero interest loan we get to manage ourselves.
I believe my wife wants to buy a bigger car in a few years that will be used for holidays/long distance type stuff, the Corsa is a little bit small/uncomfortable if you have to sit in it for 4 hours. Sounds like a good idea to me, means you're spreading wear and tear across 2 vehicles rather than ragging 1 to death.
I guess some of it also comes down to the definition of afford.
Some people’s definition of affording something leaves them with little ability to afford any thing else at all. That’s a small minority. There’ll be another small minority at the other end who are super cautious.
The majority are obviously somewhere in between.
I probably lie toward the cautious end of the normal range. On first glance at our situation people may assume that we should be swanning round in a fancy motor. But when boiled down a little it’s easy to see why we’re not.
Me and the GF have fairly reasonable salaries for our part of the world (~90k combined), no kids and no non mortgage debt.
Fixed outgoings of house inc overpayment of mortgage, all utilities / services / subscriptions, car running, fuel and food shopping come in at a smidgen under £2k. At first look the amount left over seems great.
But then we also add a little to personal pension pots, we save a bit for an annual holiday and also put money aside for things inevitably needing repairing or replacing around the house, a bit for Christmas and a bit for car repairs.
Once all that’s done I have about £600 a month that could be considered real disposable income, I’m not sure what the GF has, its her money. I’m very comfortable with that amount to do with as I wish. But to get a car that wouldn’t even be viewed as extravagant, I’d have to be willing to lose most of that £600 and not be able to do much else or save less for a rainy day. I’m not willing to do that.
Some people will be.
I’m not.
Some people’s definition of affording something leaves them with little ability to afford any thing else at all. That’s a small minority. There’ll be another small minority at the other end who are super cautious.
The majority are obviously somewhere in between.
I probably lie toward the cautious end of the normal range. On first glance at our situation people may assume that we should be swanning round in a fancy motor. But when boiled down a little it’s easy to see why we’re not.
Me and the GF have fairly reasonable salaries for our part of the world (~90k combined), no kids and no non mortgage debt.
Fixed outgoings of house inc overpayment of mortgage, all utilities / services / subscriptions, car running, fuel and food shopping come in at a smidgen under £2k. At first look the amount left over seems great.
But then we also add a little to personal pension pots, we save a bit for an annual holiday and also put money aside for things inevitably needing repairing or replacing around the house, a bit for Christmas and a bit for car repairs.
Once all that’s done I have about £600 a month that could be considered real disposable income, I’m not sure what the GF has, its her money. I’m very comfortable with that amount to do with as I wish. But to get a car that wouldn’t even be viewed as extravagant, I’d have to be willing to lose most of that £600 and not be able to do much else or save less for a rainy day. I’m not willing to do that.
Some people will be.
I’m not.
Exacting_checks said:
I guess some of it also comes down to the definition of afford.
Some people’s definition of affording something leaves them with little ability to afford any thing else at all. That’s a small minority. There’ll be another small minority at the other end who are super cautious.
The majority are obviously somewhere in between.
I probably lie toward the cautious end of the normal range. On first glance at our situation people may assume that we should be swanning round in a fancy motor. But when boiled down a little it’s easy to see why we’re not.
Me and the GF have fairly reasonable salaries for our part of the world (~90k combined), no kids and no non mortgage debt.
Fixed outgoings of house inc overpayment of mortgage, all utilities / services / subscriptions, car running, fuel and food shopping come in at a smidgen under £2k. At first look the amount left over seems great.
But then we also add a little to personal pension pots, we save a bit for an annual holiday and also put money aside for things inevitably needing repairing or replacing around the house, a bit for Christmas and a bit for car repairs.
Once all that’s done I have about £600 a month that could be considered real disposable income, I’m not sure what the GF has, its her money. I’m very comfortable with that amount to do with as I wish. But to get a car that wouldn’t even be viewed as extravagant, I’d have to be willing to lose most of that £600 and not be able to do much else or save less for a rainy day. I’m not willing to do that.
Some people will be.
I’m not.
Sensible attitude. The profligate just need to follow this chart:Some people’s definition of affording something leaves them with little ability to afford any thing else at all. That’s a small minority. There’ll be another small minority at the other end who are super cautious.
The majority are obviously somewhere in between.
I probably lie toward the cautious end of the normal range. On first glance at our situation people may assume that we should be swanning round in a fancy motor. But when boiled down a little it’s easy to see why we’re not.
Me and the GF have fairly reasonable salaries for our part of the world (~90k combined), no kids and no non mortgage debt.
Fixed outgoings of house inc overpayment of mortgage, all utilities / services / subscriptions, car running, fuel and food shopping come in at a smidgen under £2k. At first look the amount left over seems great.
But then we also add a little to personal pension pots, we save a bit for an annual holiday and also put money aside for things inevitably needing repairing or replacing around the house, a bit for Christmas and a bit for car repairs.
Once all that’s done I have about £600 a month that could be considered real disposable income, I’m not sure what the GF has, its her money. I’m very comfortable with that amount to do with as I wish. But to get a car that wouldn’t even be viewed as extravagant, I’d have to be willing to lose most of that £600 and not be able to do much else or save less for a rainy day. I’m not willing to do that.
Some people will be.
I’m not.
Royal Jelly said:
john41901 said:
Interesting. I can’t find the columns referring to income, outgoings or children. I must be mistaken in thinking they make a difference, regarding car affordability.
Buying a new Quattroporte would however be an extremely effective way of reducing my net worth. Both depreciation of the asset and the ensuing divorce.
Franco5 said:
I see naive people fawning over the expensive possessions of others and often they wrongly assume that these people must be a combination of hard working/astute/intelligent in order to acquire things when mostly they’ve been the beneficiary of a combination of good luck, inheritance, gifts, nepotism, social climbing, Governmental incompetence (in the form of Covid bailouts) or are criminal in some way.
How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
Good luck is the key to most people's wealth. Mine comes from being born in a relatively affluent country to parents one of whom had a steady job and both went to university so I had a stable home life, weren't poor, and there was the expectation that I'd go to university even though the south London state school system was not the best. Luck also comes from being a Gen X so no massive loan for higher education and even a maintenance grant due to my father's lowish income. Also able to buy property before I hit 30 as it was not as out of reach as it is now. Also inherited my father's like for cars though his pre-kids Spitfire and Scimitar gave way to a Hillman Avenger then a Leyland Maestro, before promotion got him into a Saab 9000 Turbo which felt like a rocket ship as a kid!How many people do you know have been successful in their own right without any kind of outside assistance? The only people I know that have made it themselves are nasty, ruthless conts who it would be crazy to admire.
LeeM135i said:
Personally we are very lucky and have relatively well paid jobs. We don't have kids, smoke, drink (much), have expensive mobile phones or Sky TV packages so cars are our (my) hobby.
We both get car allowances from work and I am lucky enough that I usually ride my bike into the office and have access to a van for work if needed. My wife goes in two days a week, goes on appointments 2 days a week and works from home 1 day a week.
I currently have a 2018 C63S AMG which I picked up around 18 months ago for £50k. P/Xed a 2013 M135i which I got £15k for, I had £15k from money I had been putting aside for 5 years and took out a 5year personal bank loan for £20k. Loan is £360ish a month, insurance is £50, Tax is £45 but will be £15ish next year, Mercedes service plan is £45. Usually pay the insurance and tax annually to save the extra cost of paying monthly, the service plan is interest free. The deposit and P/X came from the same 5 year loan on the M135i I purchased in 2015 and saving the rest of my car allowance.
£500 is a lot of money a month but when you think some people spend £100 on a phone, £75 on Sky and £100+ on coffee a month it's doable in a man maths kind of way.
My wife has PCP or finance with a balloon on a GLA 200d which costs significantly more than the 63 I think the PCP is £450/£500 a month insurance is £40, tax is £45 and the service plan is £30. If we needed to get rid of the GLA in a hurry we would get nothing back for it, we might have to pay to give it back. It's the third car we have purchased like this and have nothing to show for it.
I get a lot of comments on how we are doing very well to have the 63 or 'how much does that cost' but the answer is not as much as your kids if they are being an arse or not as much as you think if you buy well. Choose what you spend your disposable income on and buy to own not rent your cars. My wife wants a shiny new car every 3 years and will continue to pay through the nose for it.
Hopefully in 3.5 years time when the 63 is paid off it will still be worth a large chunk of the £50k I paid for it and I can go again, maybe the 911 will be in reach next time or I might keep the 63, last of the V8's............
It might sound like a brag but honestly its not. I wouldn't dream of taking out PCP on a new C63 £1500 a month to rent a car, no chance couldn't afford it anyway.
The cost of new cars is out of control, I understand why with interest rates, poor F/X, cost of power and shipping but it's madness.
Why did you buy an 18 plate prefacelift for 50k?We both get car allowances from work and I am lucky enough that I usually ride my bike into the office and have access to a van for work if needed. My wife goes in two days a week, goes on appointments 2 days a week and works from home 1 day a week.
I currently have a 2018 C63S AMG which I picked up around 18 months ago for £50k. P/Xed a 2013 M135i which I got £15k for, I had £15k from money I had been putting aside for 5 years and took out a 5year personal bank loan for £20k. Loan is £360ish a month, insurance is £50, Tax is £45 but will be £15ish next year, Mercedes service plan is £45. Usually pay the insurance and tax annually to save the extra cost of paying monthly, the service plan is interest free. The deposit and P/X came from the same 5 year loan on the M135i I purchased in 2015 and saving the rest of my car allowance.
£500 is a lot of money a month but when you think some people spend £100 on a phone, £75 on Sky and £100+ on coffee a month it's doable in a man maths kind of way.
My wife has PCP or finance with a balloon on a GLA 200d which costs significantly more than the 63 I think the PCP is £450/£500 a month insurance is £40, tax is £45 and the service plan is £30. If we needed to get rid of the GLA in a hurry we would get nothing back for it, we might have to pay to give it back. It's the third car we have purchased like this and have nothing to show for it.
I get a lot of comments on how we are doing very well to have the 63 or 'how much does that cost' but the answer is not as much as your kids if they are being an arse or not as much as you think if you buy well. Choose what you spend your disposable income on and buy to own not rent your cars. My wife wants a shiny new car every 3 years and will continue to pay through the nose for it.
Hopefully in 3.5 years time when the 63 is paid off it will still be worth a large chunk of the £50k I paid for it and I can go again, maybe the 911 will be in reach next time or I might keep the 63, last of the V8's............
It might sound like a brag but honestly its not. I wouldn't dream of taking out PCP on a new C63 £1500 a month to rent a car, no chance couldn't afford it anyway.
The cost of new cars is out of control, I understand why with interest rates, poor F/X, cost of power and shipping but it's madness.
The facelift is a massive step up for not much more money. Might aswell have bought a 15 plate for 30k and saved yourself some money.
Not only that, I drove our C63s for 18 months, hardly anyone knew it was a 63 or even what a 63 was. It was no more or less fancy than any of the 1000s of mercedes on the road.
Edited by Niponeoff on Tuesday 20th September 06:43
Royal Jelly said:
Interesting. I can’t find the columns referring to income, outgoings or children.
I must be mistaken in thinking they make a difference, regarding car affordability.
tha chart ignores the critical items.I must be mistaken in thinking they make a difference, regarding car affordability.
Cashflow and pensions.
If your assets include a house, country cottage etc and you have kids in expensive schools etc, then the affordability is different as the above are all cash consumers. Secondly if you have a nice employer pension plan that also affects your future plans.
OTOH you are completely debt and kid free then you have a lower outflow for your non-productive assets.
I would fail on this chart as I enjoy performance cars and I like buying them new. I am very well aware of the financial cost of buying new and I buy for cash but I get to spec the cars precisely as I want.. In the event of a serious downturn like we are having now I might not buy any more cars in the short term, and if there is a complete rout I would downsize without a second thought.
LeeM135i said:
Personally we are very lucky and have relatively well paid jobs. We don't have kids, smoke, drink (much), have expensive mobile phones or Sky TV packages so cars are our (my) hobby.
We both get car allowances from work and I am lucky enough that I usually ride my bike into the office and have access to a van for work if needed. My wife goes in two days a week, goes on appointments 2 days a week and works from home 1 day a week.
I currently have a 2018 C63S AMG which I picked up around 18 months ago for £50k. P/Xed a 2013 M135i which I got £15k for, I had £15k from money I had been putting aside for 5 years and took out a 5year personal bank loan for £20k. Loan is £360ish a month, insurance is £50, Tax is £45 but will be £15ish next year, Mercedes service plan is £45. Usually pay the insurance and tax annually to save the extra cost of paying monthly, the service plan is interest free. The deposit and P/X came from the same 5 year loan on the M135i I purchased in 2015 and saving the rest of my car allowance.
£500 is a lot of money a month but when you think some people spend £100 on a phone, £75 on Sky and £100+ on coffee a month it's doable in a man maths kind of way.
My wife has PCP or finance with a balloon on a GLA 200d which costs significantly more than the 63 I think the PCP is £450/£500 a month insurance is £40, tax is £45 and the service plan is £30. If we needed to get rid of the GLA in a hurry we would get nothing back for it, we might have to pay to give it back. It's the third car we have purchased like this and have nothing to show for it.
I get a lot of comments on how we are doing very well to have the 63 or 'how much does that cost' but the answer is not as much as your kids if they are being an arse or not as much as you think if you buy well. Choose what you spend your disposable income on and buy to own not rent your cars. My wife wants a shiny new car every 3 years and will continue to pay through the nose for it.
Hopefully in 3.5 years time when the 63 is paid off it will still be worth a large chunk of the £50k I paid for it and I can go again, maybe the 911 will be in reach next time or I might keep the 63, last of the V8's............
It might sound like a brag but honestly its not. I wouldn't dream of taking out PCP on a new C63 £1500 a month to rent a car, no chance couldn't afford it anyway.
The cost of new cars is out of control, I understand why with interest rates, poor F/X, cost of power and shipping but it's madness.
thanks for sharing Lee. I think your monthly expenditure is not too dissimilar to a majority of working couples say between the ages of 30 and 60. I know my brother in law and wife have very similar monthly outgoings.We both get car allowances from work and I am lucky enough that I usually ride my bike into the office and have access to a van for work if needed. My wife goes in two days a week, goes on appointments 2 days a week and works from home 1 day a week.
I currently have a 2018 C63S AMG which I picked up around 18 months ago for £50k. P/Xed a 2013 M135i which I got £15k for, I had £15k from money I had been putting aside for 5 years and took out a 5year personal bank loan for £20k. Loan is £360ish a month, insurance is £50, Tax is £45 but will be £15ish next year, Mercedes service plan is £45. Usually pay the insurance and tax annually to save the extra cost of paying monthly, the service plan is interest free. The deposit and P/X came from the same 5 year loan on the M135i I purchased in 2015 and saving the rest of my car allowance.
£500 is a lot of money a month but when you think some people spend £100 on a phone, £75 on Sky and £100+ on coffee a month it's doable in a man maths kind of way.
My wife has PCP or finance with a balloon on a GLA 200d which costs significantly more than the 63 I think the PCP is £450/£500 a month insurance is £40, tax is £45 and the service plan is £30. If we needed to get rid of the GLA in a hurry we would get nothing back for it, we might have to pay to give it back. It's the third car we have purchased like this and have nothing to show for it.
I get a lot of comments on how we are doing very well to have the 63 or 'how much does that cost' but the answer is not as much as your kids if they are being an arse or not as much as you think if you buy well. Choose what you spend your disposable income on and buy to own not rent your cars. My wife wants a shiny new car every 3 years and will continue to pay through the nose for it.
Hopefully in 3.5 years time when the 63 is paid off it will still be worth a large chunk of the £50k I paid for it and I can go again, maybe the 911 will be in reach next time or I might keep the 63, last of the V8's............
It might sound like a brag but honestly its not. I wouldn't dream of taking out PCP on a new C63 £1500 a month to rent a car, no chance couldn't afford it anyway.
The cost of new cars is out of control, I understand why with interest rates, poor F/X, cost of power and shipping but it's madness.
RDMcG said:
Royal Jelly said:
Interesting. I can’t find the columns referring to income, outgoings or children.
I must be mistaken in thinking they make a difference, regarding car affordability.
tha chart ignores the critical items.I must be mistaken in thinking they make a difference, regarding car affordability.
Cashflow and pensions.
If your assets include a house, country cottage etc and you have kids in expensive schools etc, then the affordability is different as the above are all cash consumers. Secondly if you have a nice employer pension plan that also affects your future plans.
OTOH you are completely debt and kid free then you have a lower outflow for your non-productive assets.
I would fail on this chart as I enjoy performance cars and I like buying them new. I am very well aware of the financial cost of buying new and I buy for cash but I get to spec the cars precisely as I want.. In the event of a serious downturn like we are having now I might not buy any more cars in the short term, and if there is a complete rout I would downsize without a second thought.
On the other hand, if I had 3 kids in private school and a 7-figure mortgage, the table may have a point.
Royal Jelly said:
I know - my sarcasm was too subtle. The table is nonsense. I’m 38, own my house, have savings to buy a couple more, have zero debt, no children and a very good net income. The table suggests I can’t afford a 911C2S.
On the other hand, if I had 3 kids in private school and a 7-figure mortgage, the table may have a point.
In isolation that table is indeed absurd, and clearly tongue in cheek although I am not convinced whoever posted it realised that. I wonder how they came across it too ??On the other hand, if I had 3 kids in private school and a 7-figure mortgage, the table may have a point.
The article from which the table comes appears to be aimed at people who live off their assets - people with a lot of assets and not much income.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/net-worth-rule-fo...
The article looks like a big pile of hairy ones to me anyway, it's far too simplistic, but in any case it doesn't seem to say what it's represented as saying.
If you have accumulated enough wealth to be able to live off it, you're probably not too thick to work out how much of it you want to spend on your luxuries. Well, unless you're an heir, a lottery winner, or a footballer, I suppose. I would have included "crypto-bro" in that list, but that appears to have resolved itself.
https://www.financialsamurai.com/net-worth-rule-fo...
The article looks like a big pile of hairy ones to me anyway, it's far too simplistic, but in any case it doesn't seem to say what it's represented as saying.
If you have accumulated enough wealth to be able to live off it, you're probably not too thick to work out how much of it you want to spend on your luxuries. Well, unless you're an heir, a lottery winner, or a footballer, I suppose. I would have included "crypto-bro" in that list, but that appears to have resolved itself.
Royal Jelly said:
I know - my sarcasm was too subtle. The table is nonsense. I’m 38, own my house, have savings to buy a couple more, have zero debt, no children and a very good net income. The table suggests I can’t afford a 911C2S.
On the other hand, if I had 3 kids in private school and a 7-figure mortgage, the table may have a point.
You may find this thread interesting: On the other hand, if I had 3 kids in private school and a 7-figure mortgage, the table may have a point.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
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