Are plug-in hybrids worth considering?

[Bannock]

Silvanus said:

There are quite a few options that would fit the bill. However, you can pick up a brand new MG HS with a 5 year warranty. I know Chinese cars can be divisive, but I'm on my second with work and they have been great. It's worth getting the highest trim possible as my second HS is a lower spec and I definitely miss the features of the previous car.

But for me, It would have to be a brand new hybrid Dacia Jogger in Extreme SE trim. Excellent value for money with decent kit and still has physical buttons alongside the touch screen. Personally I think they look pretty cool too. A great do it all car.

Another option could be a brand new Vitara, although maybe a little small.

Edited by Silvanus on Friday 29th September 14:36

I don't think the Jogger is a Plugger. Just a "self charging" (grim expression) hybrid. Same goes for the Suzukis, there are no plug-ins. OP wants a PHEV.

[clockworks]

Silvanus said:

Looking at the cars on that list, its certainly worth looking at the MG HS hybrid

Hadn't realised they'd done a facelift. Worth a look at £33k for a new one. I'll see if the local dealer has one

[Silvanus]

Bannock said:

Silvanus said:

There are quite a few options that would fit the bill. However, you can pick up a brand new MG HS with a 5 year warranty. I know Chinese cars can be divisive, but I'm on my second with work and they have been great. It's worth getting the highest trim possible as my second HS is a lower spec and I definitely miss the features of the previous car.

But for me, It would have to be a brand new hybrid Dacia Jogger in Extreme SE trim. Excellent value for money with decent kit and still has physical buttons alongside the touch screen. Personally I think they look pretty cool too. A great do it all car.

Another option could be a brand new Vitara, although maybe a little small.

Edited by Silvanus on Friday 29th September 14:36

I don't think the Jogger is a Plugger. Just a "self charging" (grim expression) hybrid. Same goes for the Suzukis, there are no plug-ins. OP wants a PHEV.

Not a PHEV, but in many ways it fits the OPs requirements, so thought it worth a mention

[clockworks]

Jogger is slower than my current C3 Aircross 1.2, so not what I'm looking for. It would be a viable alternative to a basic Rifter or Berlingo.

Having read a few roadtests of the MG HS, it's a solid but uninspiring choice for a Hybrid.
I'd prefer a 2 year old fully-electric Ioniq 5 at the price though - looks so much more modern.

[Richtea1970]

clockworks said:

Silvanus said:

Looking at the cars on that list, its certainly worth looking at the MG HS hybrid

Hadn't realised they'd done a facelift. Worth a look at £33k for a new one. I'll see if the local dealer has one

We’ve currently got an iPace (which is an excellent car by the way and probably ticks all your boxes) but now thinking about a replacement and the MG HS is surprisingly on the list, seems to be great value and pretty good reviews.

[cidered77]

For those with hybrids - can i ask what sort of efficiency you're seeing whilst in EV mode?

for EVs in general, there seems so little focus on efficiency (miles per kwh being my favorite!), and all the chat on range... but of course range can be extended by just fitting a bigger and bigger batteries and have the thing weigh 3 tonnes!

We're running an EV more as an experiment than anything else (company car for last 2 months in the job!); currently seeing 3.6 miles per kwh, mostly motorway miles, out of an Ionic 6 AWD, which at a normal home tariff at a flat rate of 30p, means it's about 40% cheaper than running my diesel V90. That's pretty good - but not spectacular.

I've thought about a plug-in hybrid, but intuitively, seems to me whether in ICE or EV mode - you're always compromised dragging the other powertrain about, so efficiency has to suffer?

Has anyone properly geeked out and worked out what the real cost per mile difference is between a plug in and a conventional diesel?

I know you can get electricity cheaper than 30p per kwh, but - doesn't seem a bad figure to use as a baseline...

[LayZ]

Unless you're planning to lease one, I am not a fan of PHEVs. They are hugely complex stopgap technology.

You can get a lot of used Hyundai Ioniq 5 under 30k now. Won all the awards last couple of years. 200 mile range worst case winter conditions, 300 mile best case. RWD one is fast enough.

[MrTrilby]

cidered77 said:

For those with hybrids - can i ask what sort of efficiency you're seeing whilst in EV mode?

I've thought about a plug-in hybrid, but intuitively, seems to me whether in ICE or EV mode - you're always compromised dragging the other powertrain about, so efficiency has to suffer?

Has anyone properly geeked out and worked out what the real cost per mile difference is between a plug in and a conventional diesel?

I know you can get electricity cheaper than 30p per kwh, but - doesn't seem a bad figure to use as a baseline...

Our XC60 is getting 2.4 miles/kWh on an 11 mile commute, mostly 60mph A roads. That’s poor compared to most EVs, but still vastly more efficient than any ICE car is ever going to manage. In terms of costs comparison with a conventional diesel on our commute, I worked out that on average (assuming lower efficiency from the PHEV in winter) we would have to be paying 45 p/kWh to match the cost of our old diesel at current fuel prices. We don’t have a fancy charger but do have a smart meter, and we slow charge overnight using the granny charger. We use Octopus Agile which changes prices every 30 minutes based on demand. At peak rates it’s a bit painful at 40p/kWh but we don’t worry about that because the oven doesn’t use that much power compared to stuff like the car charger, washing machine, dishwasher etc which all go on overnight at cheaper rates.

For the last month, our average unit rate has worked out at 16pkW/h for all our usage, so way below the standard rates. Depending on how you do the maths, the worst case analysis is that our PHEV costs 1/3rd to run compared to our diesel. And it’s twice as fast to boot.

As to worrying about dragging around the weight of an engine you’re not using when doing short journeys, it’s a non point because EVs have the same problem. Only they’re not carrying around heavy engines they don’t use every day, they carry around heavy batteries they don’t use every day.

The pros/cons to me seem to come down to: they’re not cheap, but most EVs are not either. They’re more complex, so there is more stuff that needs servicing and can go wrong. They’re as cheap to run as an EV. They’re as pleasant to drive as an EV. You have to plug them in every time you use them more or less, whereas an EV will go longer. You can do a long journey at peak times without having to plan or stress about stops.

You pays your money and takes your choice based on what matters to you.

Final addendum that has no real bearing, but in terms of fun, every time I nail our XC60 and use EV + petrol it’s silly fast and makes a great petrol engine noise that makes me laugh out load, and that you don’t get in an EV. It sold the car to me. For me; best of both worlds - quiet EV motoring with shouty performance petrol on demand. But I can see why some would see it as worst of both worlds.

[CG2020UK]

cidered77 said:

For those with hybrids - can i ask what sort of efficiency you're seeing whilst in EV mode?

for EVs in general, there seems so little focus on efficiency (miles per kwh being my favorite!), and all the chat on range... but of course range can be extended by just fitting a bigger and bigger batteries and have the thing weigh 3 tonnes!

We're running an EV more as an experiment than anything else (company car for last 2 months in the job!); currently seeing 3.6 miles per kwh, mostly motorway miles, out of an Ionic 6 AWD, which at a normal home tariff at a flat rate of 30p, means it's about 40% cheaper than running my diesel V90. That's pretty good - but not spectacular.

I've thought about a plug-in hybrid, but intuitively, seems to me whether in ICE or EV mode - you're always compromised dragging the other powertrain about, so efficiency has to suffer?

Has anyone properly geeked out and worked out what the real cost per mile difference is between a plug in and a conventional diesel?

I know you can get electricity cheaper than 30p per kwh, but - doesn't seem a bad figure to use as a baseline...

With the 330e I’d regularly get 4.5m/kw when running electric or over 99.9mpg when using the engine.

The previous photo I posted was me driving it fairly hard on mostly B roads to the gym.

Our rate with Budget Energy in N.I is 36.3p a KW so at the usual 4.5mi/kWh it roughly 8p a mile. 3.5mi/kWh is 10p a mile.

On Petrol at 155p a L we are getting the 99.9mpg it’s 7p a mile. Likely less as will be doing over the 99.9mpg it just doesn’t go any higher.

On petrol only If we never charged it I’d say say we get ~45mpg so 16p a mile at 155p a L.

So it’s actually cheaper to be hybrid. The 330e picks the most efficient time to switch between the engine and battery if you put a route in the maps. It’s completely seemless so you don’t really notice but what I find is electric when going slow in town and petrol when on the motorway or NSL.

Personally we charge from a wall socket and just drive it as normal and use a normal tariff and it’s been great.

[blank]

cidered77 said:

For those with hybrids - can i ask what sort of efficiency you're seeing whilst in EV mode?

for EVs in general, there seems so little focus on efficiency (miles per kwh being my favorite!), and all the chat on range... but of course range can be extended by just fitting a bigger and bigger batteries and have the thing weigh 3 tonnes!

We're running an EV more as an experiment than anything else (company car for last 2 months in the job!); currently seeing 3.6 miles per kwh, mostly motorway miles, out of an Ionic 6 AWD, which at a normal home tariff at a flat rate of 30p, means it's about 40% cheaper than running my diesel V90. That's pretty good - but not spectacular.

I've thought about a plug-in hybrid, but intuitively, seems to me whether in ICE or EV mode - you're always compromised dragging the other powertrain about, so efficiency has to suffer?

Has anyone properly geeked out and worked out what the real cost per mile difference is between a plug in and a conventional diesel?

I know you can get electricity cheaper than 30p per kwh, but - doesn't seem a bad figure to use as a baseline...

Cupra Leon PHEV.

Anywhere from 2 to 3 mi/kWh depending on weather and driving profile.

My driving is either around Milton Keynes or a ~10 mile commute on mostly dual carriageway NSL roads. I mostly accelerate WOT (as it doesn't have a huge amount of power in EV mode) and cruise about 5 mph above the NSL. If you were so inclined I'm sure you could get much better efficiency.

PPM is therefore 3-5p/mile on OVO Charge Anytime (which gives you 10p/kWh for EV charging as a bolt on to a standard tariff).

[edc]

Dashnine said:

I’ve got a Cupra Formentor 245 Hybrid, OK it’s VAG as above but it’s one of the better built cars I’ve ever had.

Does about 30 miles to the battery (supposed to do 34) so a bit short on your commute, but it’s certainly fun to drive unlike some of the other PHEVs I tried, especially in Cupra mode with both battery and turbo boosting. Charging overnight on a granny outdoor socket with Intelligent Octopus it’s about £7.50 for a full charge at 7.5p/KW.

It’s doing about 70mpg in hybrid mode on A/B road work, 55-60mpg on the motorway when the battery’s exhausted and not much chance to regen. Overall mpg is just a case of how often you run it on EV only mode.

£7.50 for a full charge to do 30 miles sounds terrible. It doesn't sound like a big cost per mile saving.

[MrTrilby]

edc said:

£7.50 for a full charge to do 30 miles sounds terrible. It doesn't sound like a big cost per mile saving.

They have their maths wrong. The Formentor has a 12.8kWh battery, so a full charge will be 12.8 x 7.5p = 96p to charge. Add around 10% for charging losses and your at £1

[edc]

Mini Countryman with the larger 10kw battery? There will be similar in the BMW range I guess.

[sam.rog]

I got my 330e for bik reasons but really like it. The fuel tank is tiny so will only do 300 miles on petrol.
1/3 of my total 50k miles have been on electric.

I’ve now made the decision to go full ev. Mainly because I prefer the 330e in ev mode rather than petrol.

Average mpg over that 50k is 57mpg. Not bad for a 300ish hp 1800kg saloon car.
Diesel efficiency without the tractor sound and stinking fuel.

Edited by sam.rog on Friday 29th September 20:37

[dmsims]

But if you use a compatible charger you can use any BEV

wyson said:

That tariff is limited regarding the chargers and cars it will work with. Of the cars on the OP’s hit list, only the Cupra Born is compatible.

https://www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/charge-any...

Knew there had to be a catch, sounded too good to be true.

[andrewburton]

CG2020UK said:

With the 330e I’d regularly get 4.5m/kw when running electric or over 99.9mpg when using the engine.

The previous photo I posted was me driving it fairly hard on mostly B roads to the gym.

Our rate with Budget Energy in N.I is 36.3p a KW so at the usual 4.5mi/kWh it roughly 8p a mile. 3.5mi/kWh is 10p a mile.

On Petrol at 155p a L we are getting the 99.9mpg it’s 7p a mile. Likely less as will be doing over the 99.9mpg it just doesn’t go any higher.

On petrol only If we never charged it I’d say say we get ~45mpg so 16p a mile at 155p a L.

So it’s actually cheaper to be hybrid. The 330e picks the most efficient time to switch between the engine and battery if you put a route in the maps. It’s completely seemless so you don’t really notice but what I find is electric when going slow in town and petrol when on the motorway or NSL.

Personally we charge from a wall socket and just drive it as normal and use a normal tariff and it’s been great.

99.9mpg, 7p per mile. Rubbish.

You are also using electricity out of the battery and this is not free.

If you were not then your car would have a total range of 9 gallons x 100mpg = 900 miles.

Based on your figures the cost of running 100mpg would be roughly...
Battery usage 55 miles = 15.7kwh = 5.70
Fuel needed 1 gallon 4.5 x 1.55 = 6.97
5.7 + 6.97= 12.67
Or roughly 13p per mile.

Edited by andrewburton on Saturday 30th September 06:44

Edited by andrewburton on Saturday 30th September 06:53

[Dashnine]

MrTrilby said:

edc said:

£7.50 for a full charge to do 30 miles sounds terrible. It doesn't sound like a big cost per mile saving.

They have their maths wrong. The Formentor has a 12.8kWh battery, so a full charge will be 12.8 x 7.5p = 96p to charge. Add around 10% for charging losses and your at £1

Sorry, my bad (maths) - 75p to charge, not £7.50 so it’s about 2.7p per mile. It does about a max of 4m/kWh in EV mode.

Reference only charging around 10kW while it has a 12.8kW battery, it reserves the approx. 2.8kW to run in hybrid mode when the battery appears ‘empty’ for EV use.

Edited by Dashnine on Saturday 30th September 07:44

[clockworks]

The economy numbers quoted for hybrids really confuse me.

I've read quite a few reviews where it's stated that a car will do 30 or 40 miles on the battery. That's fair enough, as the batteries in plug-ins tend to be 10 to 12 kWH, so getting 3 to 4 miles per kWH.
They then go on to say it takes 4.5 hours to recharge using a 7kW home charger. That would be 30 kWH? On a standard rate tariff, more expensive than running on petrol.

Real life numbers being quoted of 3 miles per kWH, 10p per mile on a standard tariff. 6p a mile cheaper than a 40mpg petrol car.
Doing 6000 miles a year, half on electric, that would save less than £200 a year. Would that even cover the extra insurance cost, let alone the higher purchase price or potential "luxury car" road tax supplement because it cost more to buy than the petrol equivalent?

Then there's the reduction in mpg when running on petrol because of the extra weight, and the cost of getting a charger installed.

Obviously hybrids make bigger savings driving in urban areas because of regenerative braking. Wouldn't really work that way with my usage.

Seems to me that plug-in hybrids only make financial sense for urban users on a cheap tariff, or for the bik savings, or if it cost the same to buy as the petrol version secondhand.

[andrewburton]

Effectively PHEVs are for company drivers. That is where the saving is. Huge reduction in BIK.
Using my own money and planning on keeping a car over along time I would not have one.
There are no savings to be made for a private buyer when you factor in the bork potential.

[Dashnine]

clockworks said:

The economy numbers quoted for hybrids really confuse me.

I've read quite a few reviews where it's stated that a car will do 30 or 40 miles on the battery. That's fair enough, as the batteries in plug-ins tend to be 10 to 12 kWH, so getting 3 to 4 miles per kWH.
They then go on to say it takes 4.5 hours to recharge using a 7kW home charger. That would be 30 kWH? On a standard rate tariff, more expensive than running on petrol.

Real life numbers being quoted of 3 miles per kWH, 10p per mile on a standard tariff. 6p a mile cheaper than a 40mpg petrol car.
Doing 6000 miles a year, half on electric, that would save less than £200 a year. Would that even cover the extra insurance cost, let alone the higher purchase price or potential "luxury car" road tax supplement because it cost more to buy than the petrol equivalent?

Then there's the reduction in mpg when running on petrol because of the extra weight, and the cost of getting a charger installed.

Obviously hybrids make bigger savings driving in urban areas because of regenerative braking. Wouldn't really work that way with my usage.

Seems to me that plug-in hybrids only make financial sense for urban users on a cheap tariff, or for the bik savings, or if it cost the same to buy as the petrol version secondhand.

Hybrids, or at least my Cupra have lower speed onboard chargers, so only charge at 3.6kWh. Which I didn’t realise until I’d got the car.

It’s no concern when overnight charging, especially with a granny charger at only 2.6kWh but frustrating when at work we get 2 hours free charge per day from a 7KWh charger so only get half the amount of free electrons an EV owning colleague gets. Have never used a public charger as have the convenient petrol engine and tank on standby.

Your comments re usage (urban, etc) are trueish, it’s good when you can regen so I’d add A and especially B roads into that. High constant speed (above 50mph) just kills the battery against the wind resistance with little opportunity for regen.

Edited by Dashnine on Saturday 30th September 07:48