Are plug-in hybrids worth considering?
Discussion
CG2020UK said:
With the 330e I’d regularly get 4.5m/kw when running electric or over 99.9mpg when using the engine.
4.5 mi/kWh would be good for a full EV, never mind a PHEV.Are you sure you're getting that on pure electric journeys? If the engine starts at all then mi/kWh will shoot up and the numbers become meaningless on their own.
It would also give you about 45 miles of pure EV range.
edc said:
CG2020UK said:
Richtea1970 said:
I’ve had hybrids and EVs and the headline grabbing figures are just that. I regularly see hybrids quoting 140mpg, I mean come on! If you’re doing a 100 mile journey at very best 30 miles of that will be (not that cheap anymore) electric, for the rest you will be pulling a heavy suv with a 2.0 petrol engine so you’ll be lucky to get 35/40mpg.
Hybrids are good for a specific purpose, ie, someone who does a lot of short journeys, with the very occasional long run. I have to do a 200 mile round trip every weekend and so we’ve dumped the hybrid (Outlander PHEV) and gone back to a diesel. Although the wife still has a iPace which is great for her as she only works 6 miles away, so charges it once every 2 or 3 weeks.
What you’ll find is the newer hybrids can figure out the most efficient time to use the battery or engine based on the map you input. Hybrids are good for a specific purpose, ie, someone who does a lot of short journeys, with the very occasional long run. I have to do a 200 mile round trip every weekend and so we’ve dumped the hybrid (Outlander PHEV) and gone back to a diesel. Although the wife still has a iPace which is great for her as she only works 6 miles away, so charges it once every 2 or 3 weeks.
Cut out the stuff that kills economy eg: Battery only at slow speeds, Petrol at high speeds.
Our hybrid will easily match a diesel but being petrol and electric it’s just a nicer driving experience.
Weight also doesn’t matter as much as people think for daily driving it’s definitely more aerodynamics.
The latest Honda Jazz e-HEV looks an interesting concept.
edc said:
So you have to use the sat nav to maximise the efficiency? I rarely use the sat nav and almost never day to day for places you know.
Yeah though your talking OCD levels of maximising the efficiency. The car stills knows in real time when to switch. We’ve never once done it as it can calculate on the fly.
I suppose if your someone who drives your normal car in eco mode with no A/C or heated seats it would be right up there street.
blank said:
4.5 mi/kWh would be good for a full EV, never mind a PHEV.
Are you sure you're getting that on pure electric journeys? If the engine starts at all then mi/kWh will shoot up and the numbers become meaningless on their own.
It would also give you about 45 miles of pure EV range.
We never drive full electric we just leave it in hybrid and the car sorts it for us. Are you sure you're getting that on pure electric journeys? If the engine starts at all then mi/kWh will shoot up and the numbers become meaningless on their own.
It would also give you about 45 miles of pure EV range.
BMW gives you the averages for each fuel source on the dash not a combined. So when it uses electric it would avg ~4.5m/kWh typically. When it uses petrol it averages 99.9mpg (only because it does not go higher on the dash). Petrol is cheaper a mile in hybrid mode.
Have no idea the typical split on journeys of electric vs petrol is impossible to know EV range also add in brake regen etc. The new G21 330e also doesn’t recharge the battery off the petrol engine.
I have a post further back giving the numbers and another further back of the dash after not sitting about,
It’s the RWD only saloon so it’s fairly at the top end of aerodynamic shape.
Richtea1970 said:
I’ve had hybrids and EVs and the headline grabbing figures are just that. I regularly see hybrids quoting 140mpg
Unfortunately that’s a consequence of the WLTP fuel economy testing and most (certainly my Cupra) starting each journey in EV mode. As I believe cars are testing ‘as is’ on startup this means the economy test is mainly done in EV mode until the battery’s exhausted. Anyone saying I got 150mpg out of my last tank of fuel is just running it more on EV meaning no petrol’s used, they’re just plugging it in more often. I did 105mpg on the last tank of fuel, but the car never really does more than 70mpg in hybrid mode using a mix of EV, petrol and electric power boost.
cidered77 said:
For those with hybrids - can i ask what sort of efficiency you're seeing whilst in EV mode?
for EVs in general, there seems so little focus on efficiency (miles per kwh being my favorite!), and all the chat on range... but of course range can be extended by just fitting a bigger and bigger batteries and have the thing weigh 3 tonnes!
We're running an EV more as an experiment than anything else (company car for last 2 months in the job!); currently seeing 3.6 miles per kwh, mostly motorway miles, out of an Ionic 6 AWD, which at a normal home tariff at a flat rate of 30p, means it's about 40% cheaper than running my diesel V90. That's pretty good - but not spectacular.
I've thought about a plug-in hybrid, but intuitively, seems to me whether in ICE or EV mode - you're always compromised dragging the other powertrain about, so efficiency has to suffer?
Has anyone properly geeked out and worked out what the real cost per mile difference is between a plug in and a conventional diesel?
I know you can get electricity cheaper than 30p per kwh, but - doesn't seem a bad figure to use as a baseline...
thanks for all the replies - seems a mixed bag, and nothing really definitive. So many factors to consider...for EVs in general, there seems so little focus on efficiency (miles per kwh being my favorite!), and all the chat on range... but of course range can be extended by just fitting a bigger and bigger batteries and have the thing weigh 3 tonnes!
We're running an EV more as an experiment than anything else (company car for last 2 months in the job!); currently seeing 3.6 miles per kwh, mostly motorway miles, out of an Ionic 6 AWD, which at a normal home tariff at a flat rate of 30p, means it's about 40% cheaper than running my diesel V90. That's pretty good - but not spectacular.
I've thought about a plug-in hybrid, but intuitively, seems to me whether in ICE or EV mode - you're always compromised dragging the other powertrain about, so efficiency has to suffer?
Has anyone properly geeked out and worked out what the real cost per mile difference is between a plug in and a conventional diesel?
I know you can get electricity cheaper than 30p per kwh, but - doesn't seem a bad figure to use as a baseline...
I know in exactly the same conditions I can run a BEV at 40% less fuel costs vs. a big diesel estate, without an optimised tariff paying 30p per kwh.
I know if i bought that EV privately that still wouldn't make it cheaper to run than my 6-year-old volvo, as depreciation is currently horrific - but I know with BIK it's definitely cheaper going with EV. Plus, with the exception of ride quality, the EV is a nicer commuter - but, 50k new car beats 20k used as a driving experience. Quelle surprise.
The diesel is much more practical though - more luggage space; 550 miles range. Based on this two-month trial, i wouldn't keep the EV - whilst it's cheaper and nicer in town, gap is not enough to offset practicality and my occasional 300 miles+ motorway day needs.
So PHEV could be a compromise, but i am deeply skeptical considering the surely lower efficiency in both states of drive that a PHEV saves much on fuel - even before you factor in higher purchase price and probably maintenance costs.
Does anyone have a direct comparison where they've swapped from diesl to PHEV, driven it the same way, and know the running costs of each?
Am nerdly curious still
I would have thought being the EV costs being 40% cheaper than a 4-pot diesel is pretty spectacular!
Maybe your usage pattern is at the outer edge of making a PHEV really worthwhile, with your daily mileage being on open roads and a bit beyond the EV range. Whereas consider the many millions with a slow urban commute that is 5-20 miles per day - their EV use of a PHEV will be much more significant (and efficient, including more braking regen) as well as the diesel/petrol vehicles being far less efficient in those circumstances.
I don't commute by car but the family car is constantly used on short trips of a few miles, mainly to ferry kids around. My old V8 Cayenne did about 10-12mpg with that usage.... Even your V90 would be very ordinary if doing those short trips, especially in winter. Whereas a non-plug in Ioniq (the one that looks like a Prius) was 55mpg in the same use, and obviously any PHEV would be better still.
Maybe your usage pattern is at the outer edge of making a PHEV really worthwhile, with your daily mileage being on open roads and a bit beyond the EV range. Whereas consider the many millions with a slow urban commute that is 5-20 miles per day - their EV use of a PHEV will be much more significant (and efficient, including more braking regen) as well as the diesel/petrol vehicles being far less efficient in those circumstances.
I don't commute by car but the family car is constantly used on short trips of a few miles, mainly to ferry kids around. My old V8 Cayenne did about 10-12mpg with that usage.... Even your V90 would be very ordinary if doing those short trips, especially in winter. Whereas a non-plug in Ioniq (the one that looks like a Prius) was 55mpg in the same use, and obviously any PHEV would be better still.
cidered77 said:
Does anyone have a direct comparison where they've swapped from diesl to PHEV, driven it the same way, and know the running costs of each?
Yes. Already posted to this thread.Diesel Skoda Kodiaq 190BHP AWD swapped to Volvo XC60 T8
Simple version: if most of your journeys are local and within battery range, it's half your fuel cost, maybe even better if an EV tariff works for you which would take a PHEV down to 1/4 of the fuel cost of the diesel. Maths below.
Commute, 11 miles, mostly NSL, 40MPG in the Kodiaq if I'm gentle. Sometimes +5MPG, sometimes -5MPG. 100% battery in the PHEV and gets around 2.4 miles/kWh. If you insist on sticking to expensive electricity and charge at what is now 28p, that works out for a return commute at £2.56 in the PHEV and roughly £3.20 in the diesel. We tend to charge up at no more than 16p kW/h, which makes it PHEV: £1.50 versus £3.20 in the diesel. So half the cost. We're on Octopus Agile. Some nights it's a lot cheaper (like tonight).
On a run that is greater than the battery range (40 miles in the summer) so it uses battery + petrol then your MPG is anyone's guess - it depends how much further and how fast. We seem to get between 60MPG and 80MPG. So better than the diesel (although you need to add in the cost of recharging the battery to that).
On a run if you're travelling so far that the battery is effectively 0% the entire way, so maybe an annual holiday when you're away from home and cannot charge for a week or more, we get 40MPG out of the PHEV. On a long run the diesel would hit 45MPG, and the average for the week away with local journeys added in would drop that, so call it the same as the PHEV. Which from what I can tell is pretty much the same cost as using a BEV and having to pay through the nose for rapid DC chargers when away from home.
MrTrilby said:
cidered77 said:
Does anyone have a direct comparison where they've swapped from diesl to PHEV, driven it the same way, and know the running costs of each?
Yes. Already posted to this thread.Diesel Skoda Kodiaq 190BHP AWD swapped to Volvo XC60 T8
Simple version: if most of your journeys are local and within battery range, it's half your fuel cost, maybe even better if an EV tariff works for you which would take a PHEV down to 1/4 of the fuel cost of the diesel. Maths below.
Commute, 11 miles, mostly NSL, 40MPG in the Kodiaq if I'm gentle. Sometimes +5MPG, sometimes -5MPG. 100% battery in the PHEV and gets around 2.4 miles/kWh. If you insist on sticking to expensive electricity and charge at what is now 28p, that works out for a return commute at £2.56 in the PHEV and roughly £3.20 in the diesel. We tend to charge up at no more than 16p kW/h, which makes it PHEV: £1.50 versus £3.20 in the diesel. So half the cost. We're on Octopus Agile. Some nights it's a lot cheaper (like tonight).
On a run that is greater than the battery range (40 miles in the summer) so it uses battery + petrol then your MPG is anyone's guess - it depends how much further and how fast. We seem to get between 60MPG and 80MPG. So better than the diesel (although you need to add in the cost of recharging the battery to that).
On a run if you're travelling so far that the battery is effectively 0% the entire way, so maybe an annual holiday when you're away from home and cannot charge for a week or more, we get 40MPG out of the PHEV. On a long run the diesel would hit 45MPG, and the average for the week away with local journeys added in would drop that, so call it the same as the PHEV. Which from what I can tell is pretty much the same cost as using a BEV and having to pay through the nose for rapid DC chargers when away from home.
These 2 journeys are Milton Keynes to Walthamstow and back, starting with a full battery and finishing on empty.
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You could plug in any combination of fuel/electricity prices to get a total cost per mile and then equivalent MPG. The cost of electricity obviously drags the effective mpg down a bit but for me it's still equivalent to 50mpg+ in a petrol. Not sure there are any 245bhp petrol estates that will do that sort of mpg though!
We've also got a XC60 T8. Assume the other poster has the newer bigger battery version as ours gets between 20-25 miles on a full charge, a true 40 mile range would be very useful. 95% of our journeys are within EV range we can go months without putting any fuel in it. The regen system isn't too intelligent, if I can be bothered I'll do a manual 'charge battery from engine' mode if I'm cruising on a motorway etc.
In 2.5 years I've average 60 mpg. Previous car was a V90 T5 which I believe is the same block as the XC. We got 27mpg out of that in 2.5 year ownership. What I really need to do is to do a spreadsheet and work out the numbers on fuel saved vs purchase price of a non PHEV.
I do like the volvos, it did miff me that they removed some of the as standard stuff on older cars like adaptive cruise control which became options. I took a good deal on an in stock car to find it had bogo cruise which was almost a deal breaker.
Currently contemplating a replacement. We need a bit more space so either looking at roof boxes or a bigger car like the XC90 although I plan to buy outright so won't have more than 30k to spend.
In 2.5 years I've average 60 mpg. Previous car was a V90 T5 which I believe is the same block as the XC. We got 27mpg out of that in 2.5 year ownership. What I really need to do is to do a spreadsheet and work out the numbers on fuel saved vs purchase price of a non PHEV.
I do like the volvos, it did miff me that they removed some of the as standard stuff on older cars like adaptive cruise control which became options. I took a good deal on an in stock car to find it had bogo cruise which was almost a deal breaker.
Currently contemplating a replacement. We need a bit more space so either looking at roof boxes or a bigger car like the XC90 although I plan to buy outright so won't have more than 30k to spend.
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