EVs... no one wants them!

[540TORQUES]

South tdf said:

I doubt any of the 2 people a hour that walk past are stupid enough to walk between a car and bollard when there is a 6ft pavement to use.

Never underestimate the stupidity/money grabbing nature of the general public.

So, are you insured against that type of claim?

[monkfish1]

South tdf said:

Ankh87 said:

Yes you can do that but those who can't charge up while they sleep because there's no off road parking aren't so fortunate are they. This is who I'm talking about.
Also I'm talking about your average worker who doesn't get expenses or gets a car allowance. Last time I checked your average minimum wage workers don't get these.

More places have street charging, this is my car last night outside a family property in Kensington. Quite ironic that my car was charging whilst we were out enjoying a Saturday night in London whilst it looks like a few people spent Saturday night on here saying EV’s don’t work.

In reality didn’t need to use public charging but it costs next to nothing.

Thats so PH.

Like kensington is representative of anywhere. Other than kensigton.

Brilliant. I needed a chuckle.

[monkfish1]

RayDonovan said:

Ankh87 said:

RayDonovan said:

On a 150kW Supercharger, 10 minutes will add approx 100 miles range. A 250kW version will add 152 miles.
I've just checked (sadly) and when I stop at the services for a toilet break and Coffee, my average time is 10 minutes (just parking up, checking emails and then heading into the services)

Before Ankh87 gets too worried, I stop for a coffee as my usual commute is over 200 miles and it's on expenses.
You are right about most people filling up before or after work, especially in a EV where it charges when you sleep.

Yes you can do that but those who can't charge up while they sleep because there's no off road parking aren't so fortunate are they. This is who I'm talking about.
Also I'm talking about your average worker who doesn't get expenses or gets a car allowance. Last time I checked your average minimum wage workers don't get these.

I'd suggest they don't get a EV then, simple.
They aren't a solution for everyone.

Except, eventually, they wont have a choice. Petrol sales will decline rapidly once theres a critical mass of EV's. Simple business economics. Im not going to try to predict a date for that, but shell announced closing 500 petrol station only this week in favour of electric charging.

You can still ride a horse, but you will struggle to feed and water it if you attempt a long journey.

[monkfish1]

Ankh87 said:

RayDonovan said:

Ankh87 said:

RayDonovan said:

On a 150kW Supercharger, 10 minutes will add approx 100 miles range. A 250kW version will add 152 miles.
I've just checked (sadly) and when I stop at the services for a toilet break and Coffee, my average time is 10 minutes (just parking up, checking emails and then heading into the services)

Before Ankh87 gets too worried, I stop for a coffee as my usual commute is over 200 miles and it's on expenses.
You are right about most people filling up before or after work, especially in a EV where it charges when you sleep.

Yes you can do that but those who can't charge up while they sleep because there's no off road parking aren't so fortunate are they. This is who I'm talking about.
Also I'm talking about your average worker who doesn't get expenses or gets a car allowance. Last time I checked your average minimum wage workers don't get these.

I'd suggest they don't get a EV then, simple.
They aren't a solution for everyone.

So what happens when there's no ICE avaliable? As of 2035 there's not going to be many left is there. It's either going to be really cheap to buy an ICE or really expensive due to lack of supply and millions still needing them.

What you've just suggested is ridiculous and shows you're in dream land.

For me I'm fortunate to have a driveway but I know so many people who don't.

In 2035 there will still be millions available, if we assume the renewal rate stays roughly the same. 5% per year. So by 2034 50% of cars could be EV. But wont be as sales are not 100% EV.

AS per my post above, availability of petrol will, ultimately be the deciding factor.

[tamore]

so monkfish, what would your solution be? leave things as they are (ICE dominant)? pile a load of resourced behind an alternative tech (probably H2)? wait until BEVs can carry 100% of use cases before any legislated transition?

genuinely interested.

[M4cruiser]

tamore said:

M4cruiser said:

One of the major factors is that the £2K Mondeo can be persuaded to keep going with a few screwdrivers and a hammer, whereas the EV will need an expensive visit to the Franchised dealer who charge £150 per hour just for the diagnosis.

that's partially true of bangers now. but bangers in 10 years time will all be diagnostics and laptops. what will happen is that an industry for indys to do so on old ICE and old EVs will spring up. my local garage is already training all it's techs to work on EVs. if you're on about the battery cell replacement level, that would be a specialist job. like plenty of jobs on ICE vehicles are.

Ok, there is a little more to it, but I bought an Autel scanner for £85 that tells me what's wrong with my ICE car. The tools for EVs are more expensive, and it will be decades before they are available to Joe Public with his £2,500 old Leaf.

[tamore]

M4cruiser said:

tamore said:

M4cruiser said:

One of the major factors is that the £2K Mondeo can be persuaded to keep going with a few screwdrivers and a hammer, whereas the EV will need an expensive visit to the Franchised dealer who charge £150 per hour just for the diagnosis.

that's partially true of bangers now. but bangers in 10 years time will all be diagnostics and laptops. what will happen is that an industry for indys to do so on old ICE and old EVs will spring up. my local garage is already training all it's techs to work on EVs. if you're on about the battery cell replacement level, that would be a specialist job. like plenty of jobs on ICE vehicles are.

Ok, there is a little more to it, but I bought an Autel scanner for £85 that tells me what's wrong with my ICE car. The tools for EVs are more expensive, and it will be decades before they are available to Joe Public with his £2,500 old Leaf.

the cheap scanners frequently give a code but no specifics, and fixing the problem can be well beyond 'screwdrivers'. the OEMs have made it harder and harder. you have to code in a bloody 12v battery on some models these days ffs!

[Seasonal Hero]

Ankh87 said:

Yes you can do that but those who can't charge up while they sleep because there's no off road parking aren't so fortunate are they. This is who I'm talking about.
Also I'm talking about your average worker who doesn't get expenses or gets a car allowance. Last time I checked your average minimum wage workers don't get these.

Are you as concerned about the 17 million who live in a house with no car today?

[otolith]

M4cruiser said:

Ok, there is a little more to it, but I bought an Autel scanner for £85 that tells me what's wrong with my ICE car. The tools for EVs are more expensive, and it will be decades before they are available to Joe Public with his £2,500 old Leaf.

You can get the diagnostic information for a Leaf with a sub-30 quid OBD2 dongle and a phone app.

https://www.speakev.com/threads/which-obd-reader-f...

So cheaper than your solution, though to be fair I don’t think your Autel scanner does anything more than a cheap dongle + app does, so you could have saved yourself fifty quid.

[monkfish1]

tamore said:

so monkfish, what would your solution be? leave things as they are (ICE dominant)? pile a load of resourced behind an alternative tech (probably H2)? wait until BEVs can carry 100% of use cases before any legislated transition?

genuinely interested.

Id suggest a "hard stop" was the main error. And the most likely part to fall before 2030.

Set the manufacterers emmision targets, tapering to zero over a sensible timframe and let the get on with it. No regulations were required for tesla to crack on and offer a product, including charging to the market.

[Fastpedeller]

tamore said:

Ankh87 said:

So what happens when there's no ICE avaliable? As of 2035 there's not going to be many left is there. It's either going to be really cheap to buy an ICE or really expensive due to lack of supply and millions still needing them.

What you've just suggested is ridiculous and shows you're in dream land.

For me I'm fortunate to have a driveway but I know so many people who don't.

you got a petrol pump attached to your house?

i think most people can see the progress which suggests in 10 years 'fuelling' an EV will be a very similar experience to filling an ICE vehicle now. even if it is 10 mins as opposed to 5 (i actually dispute the 5 min thing), so what. even if you have to refuel fully 3 times in a week, that's 15 mins.

if you analyse the progress differently and don't think this will be achieved, then each to their own. i personally think in 2035 we'll look back at wonder what all the fuss was about. only difference will be that some people won't have to use a public facility to charge their car, but this is surely a good thing as it takes the pressure off the charging stations.

Will the mass charging of EV's be that simple? - It's a great energy surge to charge one EV in 10 minutes, so charging a dozen on a forecourt is maybe out of the question. If you consider the number of ICE cars that can pass through a filling station in one day, if every car changes to EV, there will have to be that capacity (maybe more, if the range of EV's is less than ICE ) to fulfill the 'refuelling' needs. The average refuel time for an ICE is possible much less than 10 minutes.

[540TORQUES]

Scanners often tell you the wrong problem anyway. There is no substitute for an experienced intelligent mechanic or engineer, a dying breed.

[monkfish1]

Fastpedeller said:

tamore said:

Ankh87 said:

So what happens when there's no ICE avaliable? As of 2035 there's not going to be many left is there. It's either going to be really cheap to buy an ICE or really expensive due to lack of supply and millions still needing them.

What you've just suggested is ridiculous and shows you're in dream land.

For me I'm fortunate to have a driveway but I know so many people who don't.

you got a petrol pump attached to your house?

i think most people can see the progress which suggests in 10 years 'fuelling' an EV will be a very similar experience to filling an ICE vehicle now. even if it is 10 mins as opposed to 5 (i actually dispute the 5 min thing), so what. even if you have to refuel fully 3 times in a week, that's 15 mins.

if you analyse the progress differently and don't think this will be achieved, then each to their own. i personally think in 2035 we'll look back at wonder what all the fuss was about. only difference will be that some people won't have to use a public facility to charge their car, but this is surely a good thing as it takes the pressure off the charging stations.

Will the mass charging of EV's be that simple? - It's a great energy surge to charge one EV in 10 minutes, so charging a dozen on a forecourt is maybe out of the question. If you consider the number of ICE cars that can pass through a filling station in one day, if every car changes to EV, there will have to be that capacity (maybe more, if the range of EV's is less than ICE ) to fulfill the 'refuelling' needs. The average refuel time for an ICE is possible much less than 10 minutes.

Its pretty easy to work out. We know how much energy is in fuel, and roughly how efficent ICE is. So we can work out energy consumed.

So if a petrol station sells X amount of fuel, we can work that out in kWh. However, we dont know the % of cars that will charge there versus at home.

But if we say, an 80% drop in "refuelling" at service stations, its still going to be a mighty large number of kWh at peak load points. Especially if some on here are to be belived that we will, in future, charge a 400 mile range in 10 mins.

Unlike charging at home which can be time shifted by various means and incentives, that cant work on a forecourt.

Would be interesting to see the numbers. Maybe everything will be OK? I doubt it though.

Edited by monkfish1 on Sunday 31st March 14:17

[740EVTORQUES]

Fastpedeller said:

Will the mass charging of EV's be that simple? - It's a great energy surge to charge one EV in 10 minutes, so charging a dozen on a forecourt is maybe out of the question. If you consider the number of ICE cars that can pass through a filling station in one day, if every car changes to EV, there will have to be that capacity (maybe more, if the range of EV's is less than ICE ) to fulfill the 'refuelling' needs. The average refuel time for an ICE is possible much less than 10 minutes.

If the 60% of people who have home parking charge most of the time at home then you only need public charging for the remaining 40% plus some capacity for when people with home charging do longer journeys (despite what people here say that’s actually a minority part of most usage for most people.)

Add in some destination charging which is genuinely additional capacity (how many gyms, hotels or restaurants have on site petrol stations) and it’s far from certain that we will need more rapid charge points at services and urban petrol station equivalents than there are petrol pumps now. Add in the fact that you don’t need different petrol, diesel, E5, E10 and it actually sound pretty straightforward by comparison.

It’s also why as EVs displace petrol, some service stations are going to become unviable fairly quickly.

[monkfish1]

740EVTORQUES said:

It’s also why as EVs displace petrol, some service stations are going to become unviable fairly quickly.

Very much so.

[740EVTORQUES]

Remember also that ICE vehicles waste around 70-80% of their fuel through thermal inefficiency so you don’t need anything like the same amount of energy when delivered via a BEV pathway which waste only around 10%.

[tamore]

gridserve norwich have 22 x 350kW chargers and some lower rated ones. i'd look at that as to a 'how'.

i've no idea if they could pull 7MW if they needed to. i suspect not and there's some balancing/ buffering behind the scenes.

[otolith]

540TORQUES said:

Scanners often tell you the wrong problem anyway. There is no substitute for an experienced intelligent mechanic or engineer, a dying breed.

They tell you something, same as blue smoke, or mayonnaise in the oil cap, or knocking under load, or whatever. It’s a piece of information, sometimes it tells you exactly what’s wrong, sometimes it’s a clue, sometimes it’s a red herring.

[Tigger2050]

Dave200 said:

I have a 350 mile 2021 EV and Tesla v4 chargers will soon bring a full charge down to well under 30 minutes. That means you'd be able to do a 600+ mile journey with only a single 30 minute stop or two 15 minute stops. That's remarkable progress and I'm optimistic about what can be achieved in a decade. Technology is amazing.

Edited by Dave200 on Sunday 31st March 09:08

Why do EVangelists constantly spout stuff they know is not true.

Advertised maximum charging rates are a fantasy compared to actual charging rates in the real world.

EV's have a charging curve. When the battery is low you might, for a short time, get the advertised rate but it quickly starts to slow and it continues to slow until it gets to 80% when it collapses, to protect the battery. Trying to charge to 100% would be a long long process.

This of course assumes that you are charging in perfect conditions. Charging stations will not deliver their advertised maximum charging rates, if significant numbers are charging at the same time, far from it, they can throttle back very significantly as they don't have access to unlimited power.

Also, if it is colder than ideal your battery will not charge as quickly either.

Actual charging rates, in perfect conditions (i.e. full power available at the station and 30C ambient temperature) are published out there. It says, under these perfect conditions, a Tesla model 3 long range with an advertised maximum charging rate of 250 kwh will actually average 124 kwh between 10-80%. Most of the time you are not going to be getting perfect conditions and after 80% you can forget it.

So your figures for your 600 mile journey are just as much fantasy as EV's advertised charging rates!

If EV's are so good, why the need to make things up? Just like they never seem to mention that whilst you get 100% of the fuel you pay for into your ICE tank, you only get 85-90% of your paid for electricity into the EV 'tank'.

Edited by Tigger2050 on Sunday 31st March 15:36

[D4rez]

said:

Because for the most part it’s irrelevant - a ‘refill’ on an electric car is still much cheaper for most people - total non issue. Don’t let’s mention how much of the energy in petrol an IcE car wastes on heat and noise