Intercooler Fan Conversions

[m12_nathan]

I thought that whilst charge cooling was good for not getting too hot too soon it had a problem of taking forever to cool down once it had got too hot? Certainly there are people who remove standard fit charge coolers and replace with intercoolers for hard use on other cars (which I know may not be the same as the Noble).

[paulcundy]

Dave,
The best place to put your cooler would be in the single hose between the inlet and the standard IC. This leaves all of the standard stuff as it is and adds yours in the best position for ease of fitting and thermal efficiency. You are then also close to the side pods which is where the rad should go.

http://paulcundy.smugmug.com/gallery/


Regards
Paul C

[DaveAVT]

m12_nathan said:

I thought that whilst charge cooling was good for not getting too hot too soon it had a problem of taking forever to cool down once it had got too hot? Certainly there are people who remove standard fit charge coolers and replace with intercoolers for hard use on other cars (which I know may not be the same as the Noble).

But the art it not getting it hot, by the art of using a good core, pump and prerad, and fan assisting the prerad.

If water is constantly flowing at a good rate, and being cooled well, then it will not be able to gain in temperature.

Rear engined turbo cars always suit water to air..

[DaveAVT]

paulcundy said:

Dave, The best place to put your cooler would be in the single hose between the inlet and the standard IC. This leaves all of the standard stuff as it is and adds yours in the best position for ease of fitting and thermal efficiency. You are then also close to the side pods which is where the rad should go. http://paulcundy.smugmug.com/gallery/ Regards Paul C

Yes, agreed, that would be very easy and practical.

Would have been nice also to shorten the boost system, it is very, very long, but at least the option is there for anybody that wants to...

[plipton]

DaveAVT said:

paulcundy said: Dave, The best place to put your cooler would be in the single hose between the inlet and the standard IC. This leaves all of the standard stuff as it is and adds yours in the best position for ease of fitting and thermal efficiency. You are then also close to the side pods which is where the rad should go. http://paulcundy.smugmug.com/gallery/ Regards Paul C Yes, agreed, that would be very easy and practical. Would have been nice also to shorten the boost system, it is very, very long, but at least the option is there for anybody that wants to...

I agree that'd be the easiest place to fit the CC. However, I really like the look of this arrangement for several reasons...




1. it removes the IC from its standard location - i.e. above a very hot rear turbo and exhaust silencer.
2. it shortens the inlet run so should reduce lag and heat soak
3. Leaving the IC in line would no doubt help charge cooling to a degree but will also reduce air flow and, therefore, boost pressure.
4. charge temperature no longer relies on airflow to the IC (not great I'm told, but aided with a fan)
5. It tidies up the engine bay.
6. with a little cunning engineering work the freed-up area above the silencer box could be converted to a small but useful luggage space.

Disadvanges..

1. the system needs a radiator to be mounted away from sources of heat (realistically the front of the car). This could be in one of the wheel arches away from the main rad as long as it was protected from wheel crud, but still had plenty of airflow. Pipework might fit inside the central tunnel (not had mine apart yet so can't be sure).
2. the charge cooler is pretty close to the front turbo so may soak quite a bit of heat.
3. charge temperature when starting a hot engine could be very hot. Simple maths...
Ambient temperature 20 degrees C (293 Kelvin). Engine bay at 60 degrees (333 kelvin). Charge temp entering CC (@0.7 bar) = 498 Kelvin (225 Celcius) plus the extra 40 degrees in the engine bay = 265 Celcius ('kin hot)!!

However, that assumes instant full boost and no cooling effect from the CC so is the absolute worst possible case scenario and never likely to occur. Ditto the standard IC except it's mounted atop a frigging hot turbo and silencer!


>> Edited by plipton on Sunday 21st May 15:32

[adrian w]

put a low density radiator behind the standard front mounted one.

[DaveAVT]

Remember, the core can be insulated as it doesnt rely on radiation of heat to cool down..

And yes, it will suffer heat soak if the car is turned off for a while and restarted, but the moment the pump is activated, cooler coolant from the rad is circulated around again and its back to normal temps very rapidly. A lot of people who have ran and tested these have reported how quickly the units recover from any heat soak, usually in a few seconds..

[DaveAVT]

adrian w said:

put a low density radiator behind the standard front mounted one.

These are the rads I can supply, approx 10" x 10", 30mm thick, all alloy, or alot of people use Yamaha R1 rads from Ebay, usually about £10-30, complete with fan, and roughly the same size.



The chargecooler pre-rad needs to be infront of any other rads...

[plipton]

Hmmm. I'll get measuring tomorrow (if I get a chance before dark). Slight mod needed to allow for a BOV but the idea seems sound!

[DaveAVT]

plipton said:

Hmmm. I'll get measuring tomorrow (if I get a chance before dark). Slight mod needed to allow for a BOV but the idea seems sound!

You could either mount the BOV on the y-peice, or even have a spout welded to the tapered inlet to the core and have the BOV mounted to that, or even easier, use a silicone hose with a BOV tee-off where the y-peice connects to the chargecooler.

...then again, you may use a silicone Y-Piece instead of hard pipe, so there is loads of options, and nothing is tricky or expensive..

>> Edited by DaveAVT on Sunday 21st May 21:17

[plipton]

DaveAVT said:

plipton said: Hmmm. I'll get measuring tomorrow (if I get a chance before dark). Slight mod needed to allow for a BOV but the idea seems sound! You could either mount the BOV on the y-peice, or even have a spout welded to the tapered inlet to the core and have the BOV mounted to that, or even easier, use a silicone hose with a BOV tee-off where the y-peice connects to the chargecooler. ...then again, you may use a silicone Y-Piece instead of hard pipe, so there is loads of options, and nothing is tricky or expensive.. >> Edited by DaveAVT on Sunday 21st May 21:17

Yep, I think the engine end is a go-er. Just need to see what size pre-rad will fit in the front and how to plumb it. At times like this I wish I'd finished building my pit in the garage!!

Can you give me the full dimensions of the CC, the pump and coolant pipe sizes please?

Ta

>> Edited by plipton on Sunday 21st May 21:21

[DaveAVT]

I do loads of different size cores :

Core size: Total Length

4" x 6"----290mm---------2.3" (57mm)inlet and outlet
4" x 8"----350mm---------2.3" (57mm)inlet and outlet
4" x 10"---395mm---------2.3" (57mm)inlet and outlet
6" x 8"----435mm---------3.0" (76mm)inlet and outlet
6" x 10"---485mm---------3.0" (76mm)inlet and outlet

Obviously the bigger the better...

Pump is approx 6" long, 3" diameter : All hosing is 19mm push on...

Pre-rad L=11.5" W=10" H=1.5" and has 4 bolt mounting for a Craig Davies or equivalent fan.




>> Edited by DaveAVT on Sunday 21st May 21:38

[paulcundy]

DaveAVT said:

Remember, the core can be insulated as it doesnt rely on radiation of heat to cool down.. ..

Brilliant, of course it doesnt.

Does the pump run continuously or is it thermo controlled. I ask because its another 5 amps to find.

I'm just a little wary of the mention of heat soak. Once the whole lot, coolant and cooler are heat soaked I can see this might take at least 30 secs or more to cool down? You'll have all the water to cool so there is some inertia there. I suppose this means the pump has to run continuously?

Regards
PauL C

nb if you mount it between the existing IC outlet and the manifold inlet then there is no Y peice and the BOV will be perfect - indeed you could make one with a T'd BOV fitted.

[DaveAVT]

paulcundy said:

DaveAVT said: Remember, the core can be insulated as it doesnt rely on radiation of heat to cool down.. .. Brilliant, of course it doesnt. Does the pump run continuously or is it thermo controlled. I ask because its another 5 amps to find. I'm just a little wary of the mention of heat soak. Once the whole lot, coolant and cooler are heat soaked I can see this might take at least 30 secs or more to cool down? You'll have all the water to cool so there is some inertia there. I suppose this means the pump has to run continuously?

I would always run the pump continuously. Remember you are not trying to get the water to an 'ideal' temp, you are trying to keep it as cold as possible at all times, whereas having a thermostatic switch will only try and maintain it at a certain temp, which is not what you want.

As for heatsoak, I am thinking of a system where there is a long water pipe run and the prerad at the front, so the only heatsoak will really be at the water in the core. Once you turn it back on again, cool water from the front is flowing again. The pump flows roughly a coke can of fluid a second, so it is very capable of cooling down very quickly. Think how quickly a heat soaked intercooler could be cooled if you threw a bucket of water over it..

[paulcundy]

DaveAVT said:

paulcundy said: DaveAVT said: Remember, the core can be insulated as it doesnt rely on radiation of heat to cool down.. .. Brilliant, of course it doesnt. Does the pump run continuously or is it thermo controlled. I ask because its another 5 amps to find. I'm just a little wary of the mention of heat soak. Once the whole lot, coolant and cooler are heat soaked I can see this might take at least 30 secs or more to cool down? You'll have all the water to cool so there is some inertia there. I suppose this means the pump has to run continuously? I would always run the pump continuously. Remember you are not trying to get the water to an 'ideal' temp, you are trying to keep it as cold as possible at all times, whereas having a thermostatic switch will only try and maintain it at a certain temp, which is not what you want. As for heatsoak, I am thinking of a system where there is a long water pipe run and the prerad at the front, so the only heatsoak will really be at the water in the core. Once you turn it back on again, cool water from the front is flowing again. The pump flows roughly a coke can of fluid a second, so it is very capable of cooling down very quickly. Think how quickly a heat soaked intercooler could be cooled if you threw a bucket of water over it..

Dave,
Understood. I'll be up front and to avoid any confusion I'm not in the frame for this as its not necessary for my application, I have an FP IC and various engine/engine bay cooling mods which more than deal with the heat soak issue for what I do but I'm sure there are more than a few guys who'd be interested in your obvious expertise and experience. How big a radiator do you think the system will need? I was wondering if you could be really cheeky and put an A/C like rad (i.e. wide but vry thin) in front of the stock IC with a fan attached to the back face of the IC as a puller? There's about 2 inches gap between the back of the rear clam IC duct grill and the front face of the IC. I know its not ideal and you might argue that you're re-cycling heat but it might be a lot easier than having a front mounted rad.

I note your thoughts about a front mounted rad but you should know that the central tunnel of the M12/M400 (which is the esiest place to run the pipework) gets very hot so you can't rely on the water in the return circuit being cold "on the key". The tunnel gets very hot from re-circulated air from the front turbo unless you force air through it from front to back.
Regards
Paul C




>> Edited by paulcundy on Sunday 21st May 22:50

[DaveAVT]

paulcundy said:

Dave, Understood. I'll be up front and to avoid any confusion I'm not in the frame for this as its not necessary for my application, I have an FP IC and various engine/engine bay cooling mods which more than deal with the heat soak issue for what I do but I'm sure there are more than a few guys who'd be interested in your obvious expertise and experience. How big a radiator do you think the system will need? I was wondering if you could be really cheeky and put an A/C like rad (i.e. wide but vry thin) in front of the stock IC with a fan attached to the back face of the IC as a puller? There's about 2 inches gap between the back of the rear clam IC duct grill and the front face of the IC. I know its not ideal and you might argue that you're re-cycling heat but it might be a lot easier than having a front mounted rad. I note your thoughts about a front mounted rad but you should know that the central tunnel of the M12/M400 (which is the esiest place to run the pipework) gets very hot so you can't rely on the water in the return circuit being cold "on the key". The tunnel gets very hot from re-circulated air from the front turbo unless you force air through it from front to back. Regards Paul C >> Edited by paulcundy on Sunday 21st May 22:50

Don't use an AC rad. This is what people have done in the past and its insufficient. A good CC system is a sum of all the parts. AC rads actually are very small volume inside, and the inlet and outlet diameter is very small. The size radiator I specified above (and a lot of bike rads) is sufficient. Again, biggest is best, simple as that. If you can, permanently fan assist the pre-rad too.

As for the centre tunnel, I have the exact same scenario on the Alpine GTAs I fit them too. They have the main rad pipes running under the centre of the car - again they can be insulated, or if complete flexible pipe is used, can you not run them under the car, but not quite down the centre? The Alpine has a flat undertray, but lots of brackets/hangers where the pipe work can be connected upto and keep it at least 6" from any source of heat..

I wouldnt really worry about that too much, as people running CC systems in front engined cars, have all the pipework in the engine bay, which is going to be far warmer than running down the underneath of your cars. Even though there is heat, there is also a lot of air movement under the car, so the pipes may be hot to the touch, but whether they actually radiate alot of heat is a different matter. Stationary heat soak is a different matter, so there may be an issue there, but nothing insurmountable.

[DaveAVT]

paulcundy said:

I was wondering if you could be really cheeky and put an A/C like rad (i.e. wide but vry thin) in front of the stock IC with a fan attached to the back face of the IC as a puller? There's about 2 inches gap between the back of the rear clam IC duct grill and the front face of the IC. I know its not ideal and you might argue that you're re-cycling heat but it might be a lot easier than having a front mounted rad.

Yes, you could. Are you thinking of the tandem intercooler and cc system, or just the CC on its own.?

It still would be best to keep it away from any source of heat though. In that position, even though you have a fan, you still have radiated heat from the normal intercooler, and all the CC water pipe work is in the hot engine bay, and the total volume of water in the system is reduced.

[broad]

In my experience most people want to be able to fit these things themselves. To that end plumbing the rad at the front of the Noble and routing the pipework down the tunnel is going to be beyond them. Access to the tunnel without a ramp etc... is practically impossible and the bottom of the car is flat sheet so no pipes will be running on the outside of the car.

I would go as far to say that its unlikely you will get anyone to put a rad in a side-scoop too. Unless you have an M400 the side scoops aren't exactly up to the job and I doubt anyone will do the 'Cundy chop mod' to a roadcar that need to be resold at some point in the future.

That then leaves us with putting the rad in the stock IC location and the core in the main throttle to IC outlet pipe. The plumbing would be shorter which doesn't sound like a good thing and heat soak via any place under that very hot clam is always going to be an issue.

What also concerns me is the possibilty of water ingress into an engine if the core failed which is obviously not a problem on Air/Air IC's

G

[paulcundy]

broad said:

What also concerns me is the possibilty of water ingress into an engine if the core failed which is obviously not a problem on Air/Air IC's G

Graham,
But I thought water injection was a way of boosting power? I realise a sudden flood of all the coolant wouldn't be a good thing but I think its unlikely that it would fail that way. Surely the most likely failure mode is a slight weep from an internal crack?
Regards
Paul C

[paulcundy]

broad said:

In my experience most people want to be able to fit these things themselves. To that end plumbing the rad at the front of the Noble and routing the pipework down the tunnel is going to be beyond them. Access to the tunnel without a ramp etc... is practically impossible and the bottom of the car is flat sheet so no pipes will be running on the outside of the car. I would go as far to say that its unlikely you will get anyone to put a rad in a side-scoop too. Unless you have an M400 the side scoops aren't exactly up to the job and I doubt anyone will do the 'Cundy chop mod' to a roadcar that need to be resold at some point in the future. That then leaves us with putting the rad in the stock IC location and the core in the main throttle to IC outlet pipe. The plumbing would be shorter which doesn't sound like a good thing and heat soak via any place under that very hot clam is always going to be an issue.

Dave ,
I tend to agree with Graham, he does a lot of aftermarket stuff at Noblemods so he knows the market. I think the best "first test" of this would be to piggyback your rad onto the back of the exisitng IC with a hefty fan and the cooler as discussed before. You could then easily route the pipework and get it well insulated. This would all be pretty easy to do and would be removable if it didn't work well.

How much does the cooler weigh when full of water - will it need supporting?

Regards
PauL C


>> Edited by paulcundy on Monday 22 May 09:49