Intercooler Fan Conversions
Discussion
paulcundy said:
What also concerns me is the possibilty of water ingress into an engine if the core failed which is obviously not a problem on Air/Air IC's
G
Graham,
But I thought water injection was a way of boosting power? I realise a sudden flood of all the coolant wouldn't be a good thing but I think its unlikely that it would fail that way. Surely the most likely failure mode is a slight weep from an internal crack?
Regards
Paul C
I didn't think water injection actually increased power in a low boost application, more cooled the charge under very high boost which obviously heats the charge a lot more. If you could run high boost without water cooling you'd get more power as every drop of water in the charge is taking up space that could otherwise be used by something combustable? Or maybe not?
Weightwise, well the 4x10 is the size of a 1.5l Coke bottle, and roughly the same weight when full of coolant.
Leaking? - Well there is always that scenario, but the core inside the tube is a cast aluminium extruded core, there is no welding or brazing between the rows as on a normal intercooler, it is all one piece. As you can see on my site, these units are used on Methanol drag cars such as RX7's and Evos running upto 50psi boost with no internal failures.
As for water 'injection', it only works if your charge temps are above a certain level, roughly 50 degrees C before the throttle.
Leaking? - Well there is always that scenario, but the core inside the tube is a cast aluminium extruded core, there is no welding or brazing between the rows as on a normal intercooler, it is all one piece. As you can see on my site, these units are used on Methanol drag cars such as RX7's and Evos running upto 50psi boost with no internal failures.
As for water 'injection', it only works if your charge temps are above a certain level, roughly 50 degrees C before the throttle.
m12_nathan said:
. If you could run high boost without water cooling you'd get more power as every drop of water in the charge is taking up space that could otherwise be used by something combustable? Or maybe not?
Except when the factory ecu over richens the mixture or retards the timing when sensing high charge temps....
Even though the water isn't combustible, it can help in these scenarios and stop you 'losing' power. It also is a preventative for detonation, so allows the ecu to run more advance, and thus more power.
I'm sure these units are very well made and a failure may be unlikely but drag racing applications are not real-world comparisons to road cars. I know that the PWR systems (and ice coolers) are well respected in the drag scene though.
I know sub 10 second Evo 3's in New Zealand that use the PWR charge/ ice cooler system but not many roadcars.
I will remain open-minded until I have seen some back to back tests and if Dave wants to supply me with all that I will need for testing then thats great.
Bracketry will have to be fabbed to support the cooler in our application along with further support for the rad and for installing the pump. I'm sure we can cobble something temporary together for the purpose of testing though.
Graham
I know sub 10 second Evo 3's in New Zealand that use the PWR charge/ ice cooler system but not many roadcars.
I will remain open-minded until I have seen some back to back tests and if Dave wants to supply me with all that I will need for testing then thats great.
Bracketry will have to be fabbed to support the cooler in our application along with further support for the rad and for installing the pump. I'm sure we can cobble something temporary together for the purpose of testing though.
Graham
I am very interested. The benefits I see are
1. significatnly lower volume between the turbos and intake. This lets you boost quicker, more linear power, and all around better driving car. My Bell IC increased volume, power comes on about the same, but not near as linear as before.
2. Better heat management. I'm willing to bet on a hot day, it will perform better IF properly setup.
I have water/meth injection on my 3R, and it does work in RESTORING power to its original max on warm days. If its cool out and no heat soak, no difference. I use a small 250-300hp nozzle. steam cleans your pistons too. although in some rare cases it may mess up the ring lube.
1. significatnly lower volume between the turbos and intake. This lets you boost quicker, more linear power, and all around better driving car. My Bell IC increased volume, power comes on about the same, but not near as linear as before.
2. Better heat management. I'm willing to bet on a hot day, it will perform better IF properly setup.
I have water/meth injection on my 3R, and it does work in RESTORING power to its original max on warm days. If its cool out and no heat soak, no difference. I use a small 250-300hp nozzle. steam cleans your pistons too. although in some rare cases it may mess up the ring lube.
brav said:
I am very interested. The benefits I see are
1. significatnly lower volume between the turbos and intake. This lets you boost quicker, more linear power, and all around better driving car. My Bell IC increased volume, power comes on about the same, but not near as linear as before.
2. Better heat management. I'm willing to bet on a hot day, it will perform better IF properly setup.
I have water/meth injection on my 3R, and it does work in RESTORING power to its original max on warm days. If its cool out and no heat soak, no difference. I use a small 250-300hp nozzle. steam cleans your pistons too. although in some rare cases it may mess up the ring lube.
Brav meet DaveAVT.
paulcundy said:
I'll be up front and to avoid any confusion
Me too. I am not a racing driver and have no plans to be. I do like driving though, but as most of my driving is bumper to bumper slow stuff in town the heat builds up to a point where I have no power for open road spurts.
I'm trying to create a solution where I can drive in traffic all day then when I nail it, it flies! If a side effect of a CC is a cooler running motor then that's a big bonus.
Personally, I would like to see someone fit and test what I suggested in the second picture, with the two pipes into one, the CC on the top of the engine and the rad at the front...
I know its far easier to put the CC after the original intercooler with the pre-rad at the back, but there is so many compromises, less water volume, having an intercooler in line that is already prone to heat soak, putting the pre-rad in the same place(!), not as good air flow to the pre-rad even if there wasnt heat soak in that position, pressure drop through two cores, heat soak through the water piping etc...
If its done the way I suggested, then there is no scope for 'I wonder if it would have been better if I...'
I know its nice to have an easy DIY fitment, but these are expensive, seriously high performance cars so I wouldnt expect anybody to do anything half-assed!
The original design is half-assed, improve on it...
I know its far easier to put the CC after the original intercooler with the pre-rad at the back, but there is so many compromises, less water volume, having an intercooler in line that is already prone to heat soak, putting the pre-rad in the same place(!), not as good air flow to the pre-rad even if there wasnt heat soak in that position, pressure drop through two cores, heat soak through the water piping etc...
If its done the way I suggested, then there is no scope for 'I wonder if it would have been better if I...'
I know its nice to have an easy DIY fitment, but these are expensive, seriously high performance cars so I wouldnt expect anybody to do anything half-assed!
The original design is half-assed, improve on it...
If you could prove it worked, it might be more marketable to US owners who naturally love to "tinker" and have their cars apart for the first month of ownership anyway. In addition, we have a generally hotter climate which really makes a big difference in IC performace. It may be that at 90-110*F this thing would work much better.
I would go for it if I were promised consistant cooler temps, AND driveablilty on the street (IE, quick recovery ). The other major factor is cost, rather than hassle. If a cooler is 1500US, rad, and other parts are another 500, plus maybe 10 hours of labor/testing? thats another 750-1250. Looking at $3000+ USD at least. Question is, is it twice as good as my $750 Bell or $1500 FP IC
I guess we wont know unless we test it
Id be willing, but dont know how easy it would be with me being in the US.
Would need some total weight estimates, capacity estimates, fluid weight estimates, general parts list, costs, etc.
I would go for it if I were promised consistant cooler temps, AND driveablilty on the street (IE, quick recovery ). The other major factor is cost, rather than hassle. If a cooler is 1500US, rad, and other parts are another 500, plus maybe 10 hours of labor/testing? thats another 750-1250. Looking at $3000+ USD at least. Question is, is it twice as good as my $750 Bell or $1500 FP IC
I guess we wont know unless we test it
Id be willing, but dont know how easy it would be with me being in the US. Would need some total weight estimates, capacity estimates, fluid weight estimates, general parts list, costs, etc.
Well, I fitted one of Dave's Charge Coolers to my Alpine Renault GTA and the result is pretty good to say the least!
Originally I had charge temps of 35 on idle and up to 72 when on boost for a long while, but by then the road speed was making the IC work hard and do it's job.
With the CC, I have 30 on idle and the charge temps will not rise above 42. I am under the impression that for each degree of rise in charge temp I am loosing about 0.8 of a HP, so this reduction of 30 degs is probably worth an extra 24HP. Well it is not extra, it is just not lost anymore. I also understand that the ECU will not be retarding the ignition as much, or as soon, so another gain (or less of a loss).
As for road performance I used to find that when accelerating from a standing start the car was fading by the time I was near the top of third, this is when I used to see 72 deg C and suffer heat saturation.
Now the car absolutley rockets through third and forth too, just not enough runway to test fifth so far.
Like Dave suggests, I have an ali pre-rad in the front wing and a fan sucking air from under the car through it all the time. It is switched from the cabin. I used a couple of 20mm plastic conduit pipes to run under the car and clear hoses between all the other parts. I find that the water hardly gets warm. I calculated that I have about 5 litres of water in the system and so the pump circulates all the water in 1 cycle in about 15 seconds.
Originally after a fast run or sprint I would find the plenum to my throttle body so hot I could not touch it for more than a moment. Now, it is only a bit more than very warm, not even hot to touch.
I can only highly recomend this set up, it really does work, in theory as well as in practice...... dramatically, and would also say that the support and advice from David is second to none.
At the moment I have a temporary vent pipe/bleedline instead of a filler. And the water only expands about 5cm up the vent tupe (which is capped off). I'n time this will be cut down to about 20cm.
A before and after shot of my engine bay, a couple of other mods too.
PS: Anyone on here do any hillclimbing or sprints?
Originally I had charge temps of 35 on idle and up to 72 when on boost for a long while, but by then the road speed was making the IC work hard and do it's job.
With the CC, I have 30 on idle and the charge temps will not rise above 42. I am under the impression that for each degree of rise in charge temp I am loosing about 0.8 of a HP, so this reduction of 30 degs is probably worth an extra 24HP. Well it is not extra, it is just not lost anymore. I also understand that the ECU will not be retarding the ignition as much, or as soon, so another gain (or less of a loss).
As for road performance I used to find that when accelerating from a standing start the car was fading by the time I was near the top of third, this is when I used to see 72 deg C and suffer heat saturation.
Now the car absolutley rockets through third and forth too, just not enough runway to test fifth so far.
Like Dave suggests, I have an ali pre-rad in the front wing and a fan sucking air from under the car through it all the time. It is switched from the cabin. I used a couple of 20mm plastic conduit pipes to run under the car and clear hoses between all the other parts. I find that the water hardly gets warm. I calculated that I have about 5 litres of water in the system and so the pump circulates all the water in 1 cycle in about 15 seconds.
Originally after a fast run or sprint I would find the plenum to my throttle body so hot I could not touch it for more than a moment. Now, it is only a bit more than very warm, not even hot to touch.
I can only highly recomend this set up, it really does work, in theory as well as in practice...... dramatically, and would also say that the support and advice from David is second to none.
At the moment I have a temporary vent pipe/bleedline instead of a filler. And the water only expands about 5cm up the vent tupe (which is capped off). I'n time this will be cut down to about 20cm.
A before and after shot of my engine bay, a couple of other mods too.
PS: Anyone on here do any hillclimbing or sprints?
The most difficult thing is the packaging in the Noble. You have to be prepared to make significant changes to the setup with the Noble for it to work as efficiently as it is intended. I have no doubt that it would work well if someone would go to the lengths required to fit it ( I have a friend running this system very successfully on an Evo3 hillclimb car). It's difficult enough to get these guys to install a tax disc holder in their cars - let alone chargecoolers !!
G
G
broad said:
The most difficult thing is the packaging in the Noble. You have to be prepared to make significant changes to the setup with the Noble for it to work as efficiently as it is intended. I have no doubt that it would work well if someone would go to the lengths required to fit it ( I have a friend running this system very successfully on an Evo3 hillclimb car). It's difficult enough to get these guys to install a tax disc holder in their cars - let alone chargecoolers !!
G
G
Eh up stranger (thats Yorkshire for hello).
Bloody ring me or email me
No contact for ages.
Yours
Worried of Yorkshire
Ash
Ash M400 said:
Eh up stranger (thats Yorkshire for hello).
Bloody ring me or email me
No contact for ages.
Yours
Worried of Yorkshire
Ash
Awight geezer (thats Kentish for 'how are you doing old chap')
I've been away a fair bit lately, testing with a couple of rally teams. I still look in from time to time though.
Should be coming to Oulton to whup your ass into shape
I may be able to encourage a couple of fellow rally peeps to come along to help out too - but the thought of going round and round in circles doesn't normally fill them will joy!! 
G
brav said:
Thanks for posting the results, I'm very interested in this application. Hopefully we can put something together over here in the states.
And this is on a hot day with ambient temps of around 26 degrees, so it supports the general results I have been seeing on various vehicles of charge temps only 12-16 degrees above ambient temperature.
On the GTA, there is still warming of the intake before the turbo because the route and length of the inlet tract, so in another application, I would estimate around 12 degrees gain over ambient..
This was using the 4 x 10" unit. Obviously, the larger diameter cores have even more water capacity and flow benefits.
I've used charge cooling before and it does work - but is not as good as a good intercooler IMO
the problem with charge coolers is that the water in them gets hot and takes ages to cool down again
not a problem for a 7 sec dragster - but a problem for a car that sits in traffic geting hot
My guess is better air flow will fix the temp problems - somebody needs to build an intercooler scoop that sits in the airflow
has anybody placed an anemometer in front of the intercooler to check the air flow ?
the problem with charge coolers is that the water in them gets hot and takes ages to cool down again
not a problem for a 7 sec dragster - but a problem for a car that sits in traffic geting hot
My guess is better air flow will fix the temp problems - somebody needs to build an intercooler scoop that sits in the airflow
has anybody placed an anemometer in front of the intercooler to check the air flow ?
gadgeroonie said:
My guess is better air flow will fix the temp problems - somebody needs to build an intercooler scoop that sits in the airflow
But here's were the theory falls down and we have to find out what actually happens - i.e. test it for real.
In theory, when the cars in traffic or going slowly both charge coolers and IC (no matter how efficient) will tend to get heat soaked.
Regards
PauL C
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