Discussion
We’ve not really seen anyone yet be brave enough to break away from the traditional shape of a car as defined by the components with an overlay of legislation. In due course EVs should be able to break away from that legacy design language and create aesthetic shapes that are purpose designed without legacy. You’d expect this to favour the internal consumer experience and also key aspects like drag if superior external shapes can be designed for a box. I suspect that global legislations will still play a huge role and ultimately be a restriction on obtaining the best drag efficiencies.
Ultimately we also all know that if efficiency is really that important then we wouldn’t be driving 2 ton 6 foot wide boxes with Carlos Fandango wheels but things much more Joe 90 like a GWiz Longtail. The uncomfortable truth is that secretly consumers don’t give a flying f
k about efficiencies or the environment. They just want what they want. They want it now and they want good finance. The companies know this and all their eco stuff is merely sales and marketing lubrication to help facilitate the insatiable greed and destruction of the excess consumer. 
Ultimately we also all know that if efficiency is really that important then we wouldn’t be driving 2 ton 6 foot wide boxes with Carlos Fandango wheels but things much more Joe 90 like a GWiz Longtail. The uncomfortable truth is that secretly consumers don’t give a flying f
k about efficiencies or the environment. They just want what they want. They want it now and they want good finance. The companies know this and all their eco stuff is merely sales and marketing lubrication to help facilitate the insatiable greed and destruction of the excess consumer. EddieSteadyGo said:
Whilst the styling is not exciting, one point for the nerds like me, the drag coefficient (cd) they have managed to achieve on this new car.is pretty good.
When model S was launched it had a cd of 0.24. Then they managed to achieve the same value for model X, despite the higher roofline. And this new Model Y has a reported cd of 0.23.
As a comparison, the i-pace has a much higher value of 0.29. This is the main reason why the range at higher speeds is so much less on the Jaguar.
I think we will see legacy car makers be tempted to start creating new corporate 'design languages' to achieve much better drag coefficient performances in the next couple of years. This is going to make many cars look similar to Tesla.
Cd is a dimenionless number though that means nothing without the frontal area. The drag calc is:When model S was launched it had a cd of 0.24. Then they managed to achieve the same value for model X, despite the higher roofline. And this new Model Y has a reported cd of 0.23.
As a comparison, the i-pace has a much higher value of 0.29. This is the main reason why the range at higher speeds is so much less on the Jaguar.
I think we will see legacy car makers be tempted to start creating new corporate 'design languages' to achieve much better drag coefficient performances in the next couple of years. This is going to make many cars look similar to Tesla.
Aerodynamic drag = Frontal Area x drag coefficient (Cd) x Air density x Speed squared
So just comparing Cd between cars without considering their frontal area is meaningless. The Model X for instance will definitely have higher drag than the Model S as it's got a higher frontal area.
RacerMike said:
Cd is a dimenionless number though that means nothing without the frontal area. The drag calc is:
Aerodynamic drag = Frontal Area x drag coefficient (Cd) x Air density x Speed squared
So just comparing Cd between cars without considering their frontal area is meaningless. The Model X for instance will definitely have higher drag than the Model S as it's got a higher frontal area.
You are adding unnecessary complication to my point. Yes, you could say the CdA takes into account the area and so would be a better figure.Aerodynamic drag = Frontal Area x drag coefficient (Cd) x Air density x Speed squared
So just comparing Cd between cars without considering their frontal area is meaningless. The Model X for instance will definitely have higher drag than the Model S as it's got a higher frontal area.
But the frontal area is broadly similar between say the Jaguar i-pace and the Model Y, so the point about comparative aerodynamic efficiency still stands.
EddieSteadyGo said:
But the frontal area is broadly similar between say the Jaguar i-pace and the Model Y, so the point about comparative aerodynamic efficiency still stands.
It does mean there was nothing particularly impressive about the Model-X having the same Cd as the Model-S though. 
Rider007 said:
However designs Teslas should be shot.They all look the same, just fattend,shortend,stretched,heightend. Bit like americans in general. Need to get european designers on board to give them some flair.
But the European designs, with their large, aggressive vertical grilles and gaping front noses translates to pretty poor aero efficiency. Hence why I think we are going to see some of the big auto companies reinterpreting their design philosophy in the next year or so, EddieSteadyGo said:
But the European designs, with their large, aggressive vertical grilles and gaping front noses translates to pretty poor aero efficiency. Hence why I think we are going to see some of the big auto companies reinterpreting their design philosophy in the next year or so,
True but you can get stylish electric cars, take the Jag I-Pace 
Rider007 said:
I was trying to make the point that the i-pace has comparatively poor aero efficiency, which is the main reason its range is so much lower at higher speeds vs a similar Tesla. The Audi e-tron has the same issue.They are trying to carry over some of their familiar brand styling charactistics, and I agree it makes the design more distinctive, but the penalty is aero efficiency.
The result is that an i-pace driven in the real world is getting a range of around 220 miles. And that is with a large 90kwh battery pack. Adapting the design would have given quite a lot of extra range, or allowed for a smaller, lower cost battery pack to be used.
EddieSteadyGo said:
But the European designs, with their large, aggressive vertical grilles and gaping front noses translates to pretty poor aero efficiency. Hence why I think we are going to see some of the big auto companies reinterpreting their design philosophy in the next year or so,
Not necessarily so: https://www.motoringresearch.com/car-news/most-aer...A good number of ordinary German cars have very low drag, it seems. An S-Class is 0.24.
LG9k said:
A good number of ordinary German cars have very low drag, it seems. An S-Class is 0.24.
I think getting good Cd numbers out of a saloon is an awful lot easier than getting them out of an SUV or even a hatchback. For example whilst the S-Class is 0.24, the GLC is 0.31 and the GL is 0.37!kambites said:
I think getting good Cd numbers out of a saloon is an awful lot easier than getting them out of an SUV or even a hatchback. For example whilst the S-Class is 0.24, the GLC is 0.31 and the GL is 0.37!
A Prius (which is what the model Y most closely resembles) is about the same. The "tear drop" is a pretty old design - really pioneered by Citroen way, way back.The Teslas are not particularly remarkable in this regard.
kambites said:
LG9k said:
A good number of ordinary German cars have very low drag, it seems. An S-Class is 0.24.
I think getting good Cd numbers out of a saloon is an awful lot easier than getting them out of an SUV or even a hatchback. For example whilst the S-Class is 0.24, the GLC is 0.31 and the GL is 0.37!I think there is an argument that for certain car segments, an aggressive or bold look is much more important than better efficiency. But for the vast majority of cars, I think manufacturers are going to need to adapt their design approach and find new ways of making their cars distinctive..
kambites said:
Indeed, but it seems to be the smooth teardrop shape that people are objecting to from a styling perspective. People are hardly universally complementary about the styling of the Prius. 
They were tremendously popular for a short while in California. And lots of people who live around Heathrow seem to like them. kambites said:
Indeed, but it seems to be the smooth teardrop shape that people are objecting to from a styling perspective. People are hardly universally complementary about the styling of the Prius.
See the original post I was replying to, stating that all the slats/aggressive stuff hurts the drag. Those low drag cars all have those styling cues. It's noteworthy that the S Class and 7 Series, which are often cited as the Model S competitors have similar drag to the Model S. Tesla hasn't really done anything particularly clever here. In fact, I'd say making cars as Mercedes and BMW have done, with low drag, and retaining some sense of style is much more impressive, especially given they have to fit a big old engine up front.The Tesla's do look terrible (as does the Prius) but that's ok, both types of cars are designed that way for good reason. However, it is possible to do things differently, as illustrated by the examples in my link.
LG9k said:
In fact, I'd say making cars as Mercedes and BMW have done, with low drag, and retaining some sense of style is much more impressive, especially given they have to fit a big old engine up front.
You really find the S-class and 7-series more stylish than the Model-S? Each to their own I guess. The Model-X (and now Model-Y) are pretty terrible looking but to my eyes they're no worse looking than the GLC, X6, X4, etc. which don't even have the excuse of being remotely aerodynamic.
I'm not particularly a fan of Tesla but the amount of criticism their styling gets always seems odd to me.
Edited by kambites on Friday 15th March 12:54
kambites said:
LG9k said:
In fact, I'd say making cars as Mercedes and BMW have done, with low drag, and retaining some sense of style is much more impressive, especially given they have to fit a big old engine up front.
You really find the S-class and 7-series more stylish than the Model-S? Each to their own I guess. The Model-X (and now Model-Y) are pretty terrible looking but to my eyes they're no worse looking than the GLC, X6, X4, etc. which don't even have the excuse of being remotely aerodynamic.
Edited by kambites on Friday 15th March 12:52
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