Discussion
Very INTERESTING reading....SHELL OIL CEO...peak iol in /yrs time...
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/01/shell_ceo_...
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/01/shell_ceo_...
Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 1st February 11:21
We also need some marketing info and future trends, for this new 3wheeler:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/01/2008_consu...
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/01/2008_consu...
On the battery type I'm advised that LiPo (lithium polymer) are not the way to go. Please see www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3o_2mwRPdw I,m playing with LiFe (lithium Phosphate) cells at the moment, no probs with over heating yet and should do 2000 cycles. LiPo only do 500 so I,m told
Edited by stig mills on Saturday 2nd February 10:19
stig mills said:
On the battery type I'm advised that LiPo (lithium polymer) are not the way to go. Please see www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3o_2mwRPdw I,m playing with LiFe (lithium Phosphate) cells at the moment, no probs with over heating yet and should do 2000 cycles. LiPo only do 500 so I,m told
LOL I've done that a couple of times with my RC heli batteries - I now have a vented fireproof pot to charge them in.Edited by stig mills on Saturday 2nd February 10:19
I'm pressuming you mean the A123 cells? They were certainly getting rave reviews on the RC forums, though from memory they are not as high power density, hell of a lot more stable though and quicker charging times as a result. Seem to recall not quite as high xC rating as well? What are they like price-wise now?
Edited by Davi on Saturday 2nd February 10:58
I did read a bit about a chap on ebay called pingping (or something like that!) who can do them at remarkably low price - mixed reviews on his cells if you do a bit of searching. Certainly looks like a good technology to go for if you don't mind splashing the cash though.
Need to look up the charge characteristics as well - I *think* you can fool my LiPo charger into charging them but it would take a long time on that sort of power. Then there is the BMS etc... annoys me a bit that they are all so bloody expensive when there really isn't anything in them that's technologically difficult (so I'm told)
Need to look up the charge characteristics as well - I *think* you can fool my LiPo charger into charging them but it would take a long time on that sort of power. Then there is the BMS etc... annoys me a bit that they are all so bloody expensive when there really isn't anything in them that's technologically difficult (so I'm told)
Still a way to go yet but the obvious area to potentially save costs is the battery area. Even if we save only 10% here that saving could pay for the chassis. I would like to be able to sell a full kit for around £3000 plus the cells, so I would hope to get one on the road for £5000. Not cheap but it is realistic. Will the potential customers be put off by this price level? Regards Stuart
stig mills said:
Still a way to go yet but the obvious area to potentially save costs is the battery area. Even if we save only 10% here that saving could pay for the chassis. I would like to be able to sell a full kit for around £3000 plus the cells, so I would hope to get one on the road for £5000. Not cheap but it is realistic. Will the potential customers be put off by this price level? Regards Stuart
At that price I would say it's going to depend massively on final range and performance IMO.fuoriserie said:
what part of the manufacturing cost will the battery pack be ? 50-60 % ?
I had originally intended to use a composite tub, probably pre-preg glass with cores in areas. The cost of this would likley be in the £2-£3k ballpark. I now think that a steel spaceframe bonded to a pu injection moulded body would be more in keeping with the cost model. It would also enable rapid production if demand was great enough. I have recently been doing some work for a company that specialises in low cost soft tooling for injection moulding. I recon that safety will be important to potential end users, it's important to reasure it's crash worthyness. By the way Italo, I've just bought a graphics tablet and have done a couple of arty sketches last night based on your interpretation of the brief. If someone can tell me how, I will post them for you.Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 4th February 10:04
hoopdiddy07 said:
If someone can tell me how, I will post them for you.
get yourself a free host account (photobucket.com) load the picture up there, it'll provide you with various linking options, click on the one that says something like " [img] http://wwwphotobucket.com/hoopdiddysaccount/hispic... [/img] " then just paste that in a post
I've been following this thread with interest. I've had a burning desire to build an electric car for years and I find the discussion here very stimulating. The A123 Systems batteries seem to me to be the best of the bunch at the moment. At least you can buy them, unlike a lot of other "wonder" batteries that seem to pop up all the time. They quote the following spec on their site
" * Power: Over 3000 W/kg and 5800 W/L
* Safety: Inherently safer and environmentally friendly
* Life: Superior calendar life, 10X cycle life vs. conventional Lithium ion"
I have seen regular Lithium Ion chemistry batteries quoted at everything from 150 WhKg to 3500 WhKg. Anyway, for my money A123 is at the top of the heap at present with a commercial product.
I believe you could make a practical PEV (pure electric vehicle) with these cells. It would have to be light and I think at a minimum have two seats and a small luggage compartment/area. Practicality is crucial with this type of vehicle as you're trying to get people out of conventional cars into this lightweight commuter.
It would have to be all-weather and easy to get in and out of. From a design perspective it also has to look like a real vehicle for adults, not a kiddie car.
This brings me to my main point. I think from this perspective a three-wheeler is going to be a dud from the word go. Apart from Morgans and Reliants, there has never been a decent, practical three wheeler. That's if you could call either of the others practical, they're no longer in production, that must tell you something.
To my way of thinking, getting the average schmo out of his air conditioned, heated seat, power steered, cup holder, leather upholstered car is going to be a tough call for a low volume manufacturer.
I think a vehicle with the appropriate form factor currently exists, the Smart. So in real terms, an EV conversion on a Smart would be the most practical way to get people into PEV's at the moment. Or create a car that's lighter but maintains the same basic form factor.
" * Power: Over 3000 W/kg and 5800 W/L
* Safety: Inherently safer and environmentally friendly
* Life: Superior calendar life, 10X cycle life vs. conventional Lithium ion"
I have seen regular Lithium Ion chemistry batteries quoted at everything from 150 WhKg to 3500 WhKg. Anyway, for my money A123 is at the top of the heap at present with a commercial product.
I believe you could make a practical PEV (pure electric vehicle) with these cells. It would have to be light and I think at a minimum have two seats and a small luggage compartment/area. Practicality is crucial with this type of vehicle as you're trying to get people out of conventional cars into this lightweight commuter.
It would have to be all-weather and easy to get in and out of. From a design perspective it also has to look like a real vehicle for adults, not a kiddie car.
This brings me to my main point. I think from this perspective a three-wheeler is going to be a dud from the word go. Apart from Morgans and Reliants, there has never been a decent, practical three wheeler. That's if you could call either of the others practical, they're no longer in production, that must tell you something.
To my way of thinking, getting the average schmo out of his air conditioned, heated seat, power steered, cup holder, leather upholstered car is going to be a tough call for a low volume manufacturer.
I think a vehicle with the appropriate form factor currently exists, the Smart. So in real terms, an EV conversion on a Smart would be the most practical way to get people into PEV's at the moment. Or create a car that's lighter but maintains the same basic form factor.
Fresh_Clip said:
I've been following this thread with interest. I've had a burning desire to build an electric car for years and I find the discussion here very stimulating. The A123 Systems batteries seem to me to be the best of the bunch at the moment. At least you can buy them, unlike a lot of other "wonder" batteries that seem to pop up all the time. They quote the following spec on their site
" * Power: Over 3000 W/kg and 5800 W/L
* Safety: Inherently safer and environmentally friendly
* Life: Superior calendar life, 10X cycle life vs. conventional Lithium ion"
I have seen regular Lithium Ion chemistry batteries quoted at everything from 150 WhKg to 3500 WhKg. Anyway, for my money A123 is at the top of the heap at present with a commercial product.
I believe you could make a practical PEV (pure electric vehicle) with these cells. It would have to be light and I think at a minimum have two seats and a small luggage compartment/area. Practicality is crucial with this type of vehicle as you're trying to get people out of conventional cars into this lightweight commuter.
It would have to be all-weather and easy to get in and out of. From a design perspective it also has to look like a real vehicle for adults, not a kiddie car.
This brings me to my main point. I think from this perspective a three-wheeler is going to be a dud from the word go. Apart from Morgans and Reliants, there has never been a decent, practical three wheeler. That's if you could call either of the others practical, they're no longer in production, that must tell you something.
To my way of thinking, getting the average schmo out of his air conditioned, heated seat, power steered, cup holder, leather upholstered car is going to be a tough call for a low volume manufacturer.
I think a vehicle with the appropriate form factor currently exists, the Smart. So in real terms, an EV conversion on a Smart would be the most practical way to get people into PEV's at the moment. Or create a car that's lighter but maintains the same basic form factor.
Electric smarts already exist. They are still too heavy to offer the range that most people would consider sufficient. The only way of tempting people away from the norm is by sacrificing some practicality and making up for it in style and cost saving imho. In order to achieve this, weight saving has to be top of the agenda and four wheels are one more than necessary. Also, I can't stress enough how important an attention grabbing aesthetic is. I suspect that the reason you didn't know about electric smart cars is that they look like any other Smart and therefore, publicity has been low. The media love to cover the unusual; 'and finally.....'." * Power: Over 3000 W/kg and 5800 W/L
* Safety: Inherently safer and environmentally friendly
* Life: Superior calendar life, 10X cycle life vs. conventional Lithium ion"
I have seen regular Lithium Ion chemistry batteries quoted at everything from 150 WhKg to 3500 WhKg. Anyway, for my money A123 is at the top of the heap at present with a commercial product.
I believe you could make a practical PEV (pure electric vehicle) with these cells. It would have to be light and I think at a minimum have two seats and a small luggage compartment/area. Practicality is crucial with this type of vehicle as you're trying to get people out of conventional cars into this lightweight commuter.
It would have to be all-weather and easy to get in and out of. From a design perspective it also has to look like a real vehicle for adults, not a kiddie car.
This brings me to my main point. I think from this perspective a three-wheeler is going to be a dud from the word go. Apart from Morgans and Reliants, there has never been a decent, practical three wheeler. That's if you could call either of the others practical, they're no longer in production, that must tell you something.
To my way of thinking, getting the average schmo out of his air conditioned, heated seat, power steered, cup holder, leather upholstered car is going to be a tough call for a low volume manufacturer.
I think a vehicle with the appropriate form factor currently exists, the Smart. So in real terms, an EV conversion on a Smart would be the most practical way to get people into PEV's at the moment. Or create a car that's lighter but maintains the same basic form factor.
Ahhh, a Smart electric. Never knew about it. The main reason for that is probably that I live in Australia and Smart cars are as popular as a fart in a spacesuit! I imagine they'd have Pb cells in them wouldn't they? I totally agree on the visual aesthetic issue and also the desperate need for light weight. I'm liking the concept drawings from Italo and you hoopdiddy, I'd love to see Italo's or your take on a four wheeler EV :-)
Edited by Fresh_Clip on Tuesday 5th February 02:45
hoopdiddy07 said:
These are scribles done entirley on the tablet and are a bit vague and overworked as a result. The detail is there to fill in the gaps at the moment. They are intended as toilet reading fodder I suppose. Thanks Davi.
Edited by hoopdiddy07 on Monday 4th February 20:52
I would buy one of these if the price was right..., I guess need to start saving for the year 2009.....
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 5th February 08:21
Fresh_Clip said:
Ahhh, a Smart electric. Never knew about it. The main reason for that is probably that I live in Australia and Smart cars are as popular as a fart in a spacesuit! I imagine they'd have Pb cells in them wouldn't they?
A quick Google revealed the Smart EV uses sodium nickel-chloride batteries. Their disadvantage is they run at 300C.I believe LMC are developing a kit to convert Smarts to electric using two Lynch motors. One for each rear wheel.
hoopdiddy07 said:
The only way of tempting people away from the norm is by sacrificing some practicality and making up for it in style and cost saving imho. In order to achieve this, weight saving has to be top of the agenda and four wheels are one more than necessary. Also, I can't stress enough how important an attention grabbing aesthetic is. I suspect that the reason you didn't know about electric smart cars is that they look like any other Smart and therefore, publicity has been low. The media love to cover the unusual; 'and finally.....'.
spot on.I also think this kind of vehicle is primarily going to appeal to people like myself - live in or close to a city but just far enough from work for walking / cycling to be a pain in the arse, but sit in traffic with 90% of the time taken to travel sitting stationary, burning expensive fuel for no gain, then struggling to park when you get there etc. For this masses of luggage space and seating isn't really required (I can think of 4 journeys in the last year where my car had more than 1 person in it)
One of my key criteria would be to ensure it's no longer than a standard vehicle is wide, because there are hundreds of cubby holes I could park in then!
Fresh_Clip said:
I totally agree on the visual aesthetic issue and also the desperate need for light weight. I'm liking the concept drawings from Italo and you hoopdiddy, I'd love to see Italo's or your take on a four wheeler EV :-)
Will see what I can do..Edited by Fresh_Clip on Tuesday 5th February 02:45
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