Discussion
qdos said:
I'm going to be controversial here and suggest that there's a whole load of PC nonsense going on with this now.
Almost certainly. I think it's more about class to be honest - having a bit of eye candy around is fine but it tends to degenerate into cheap tartery (I was at a track with a max-power type show this year and some of it was frankly embarrassing). You'd have to go more for the Goodwood style of things I think. Either way, I don't think that a few promo girls will go any way to solving the problem.You need to provide things to watch, other than rows of static cars. I do think that having the cars moving in some manner (doesn't have to be a track day) would help. Maybe some show competitions as well that people can enter to give some focus (concourse or whatever).
qdos said:
So lets forget we're at that age when our ages are now beyond our waist sizes...
Speak for yourself - I'm only in my forties! 
qdos said:
So any bright ideas and suggestions as to what we DO do are very welcome....
Well, if you want controversial, my suggestion is stop flogging a dead horse. As was discussed starting with Kartman's post back on page seven of this thread, the main problem you're up against is that shows as a form of marketing for manufacturers and suppliers are an outdated concept that simply don't make sense any more.If you're looking at shows from the point of view of an organiser, however, then surely the logical analysis would run like this:
- Problem: poor attendance from manufacturers has led to lacklustre shows with poor public attendance.
- Why aren't manufacturers attending? Because they see shows as offering a poor return for their time and money.
Solution:
- Start rebuilding public interest by encouraging more manufacturers to attend.
- How do you do that when you can't initially give them the confidence that their time and expense will be repaid by adeqaute sales interest? You make sure that it is worth their while to attend even if they don't sell anything. In other words:
- You pay manufacturers to attend, instead of charging them.
Now whether the financial numbers could be made to stack up so that this works is another question - I'm not in the shows and exhibitions game, so I really couldn't say - but it seems to me that if you can't make thsi approach stack up, then the vicious circle continues and the horse eventually dies, no matter how much you flog it.
Sam_68 said:
Well, if you want controversial, my suggestion is stop flogging a dead horse.....
You pay manufacturers to attend, instead of charging them.
Now whether the financial numbers could be made to stack up so that this works is another question.....
The sums wouldn’t add up I’m afraid….You pay manufacturers to attend, instead of charging them.
Now whether the financial numbers could be made to stack up so that this works is another question.....
Let me give you an approximate run through the figures for Exeter (as that’s the next show).
Hire of facility £25,000
Publicity £20,000 (figure from Cookie)
Staff on day (including hotel and travel) £5,000
Extra for ‘supplements’ such as attractions, show guide, booking forms, etc
So, It’ll cost Mr Cooke over £50,000 to lay it on.
On the income side; he’ll get about 2000 paying punters this year (it’s been better in years past) at £11 inc VAT which equates to £18,333 nett.
How could the £32,000 gap be bridged if manufacturers were not paying for their stands?
Even if that gap could be bridged; would there be enough over to pay manufacturers to attend?
Entertainers should be paid, not exhibitors, a marching band playing modern tunes for older folk and a bike/car stunt show should earn a fee, I love to watch cunning stunts!
Awards for best in show, greatest distance travelled etc. An areana with JCB's dancing, human cannon ball, etc. Ever seen the "purple helmets" stunt team? I would travel and pay just to see them. It's all been done before but we must not forget that kit car shows need to entertain. A decent guy on the mike to keep everyone invloved on "Radio car show" transmitted around the show grounds tannoy playing car related tunes, a time table of various activities during the weekend, you could have inter club "throwing the starter motor competitions" or drag a mate on a bonnet races. A good laugh is all that is required, does not have to cost a great deal either. When the show salesman rings up to tell exhibitors about all these new attractions, they should want to be part of the new enthusiasm.
A lousy disco in a shed at night is not good enough, even though the majority of the attendees did not pay an admission fee to get in the show. Its the combination of all the possible carnival activities that will make for an entertaining show that people will remember and come back to. People may critisise all the individual suggestions but collectively they can create an atmosphere associated with fun.
I will not mention female mud wrestling as clearly we may have an older age group or potential lady customers reading who may find such things offensive. I was told they even had a lap dancing marquee at the Max Power show, not exactly car related entertainment, but you could walk past if you are not interested, more and varied entertainment is needed to enhance the shows.
What form of entertainment would attract you to visit a show?
Awards for best in show, greatest distance travelled etc. An areana with JCB's dancing, human cannon ball, etc. Ever seen the "purple helmets" stunt team? I would travel and pay just to see them. It's all been done before but we must not forget that kit car shows need to entertain. A decent guy on the mike to keep everyone invloved on "Radio car show" transmitted around the show grounds tannoy playing car related tunes, a time table of various activities during the weekend, you could have inter club "throwing the starter motor competitions" or drag a mate on a bonnet races. A good laugh is all that is required, does not have to cost a great deal either. When the show salesman rings up to tell exhibitors about all these new attractions, they should want to be part of the new enthusiasm.
A lousy disco in a shed at night is not good enough, even though the majority of the attendees did not pay an admission fee to get in the show. Its the combination of all the possible carnival activities that will make for an entertaining show that people will remember and come back to. People may critisise all the individual suggestions but collectively they can create an atmosphere associated with fun.
I will not mention female mud wrestling as clearly we may have an older age group or potential lady customers reading who may find such things offensive. I was told they even had a lap dancing marquee at the Max Power show, not exactly car related entertainment, but you could walk past if you are not interested, more and varied entertainment is needed to enhance the shows.
What form of entertainment would attract you to visit a show?
Not been to any car shows for ages (Autosport starting getting a bit chavvy and expensive!).
Have frequented the Dive show at the NEC the last few years and that seems to be suffering the same - smaller numbers of traders and MOP and horrendous entry/parking/food costs.
The one thing I do think the Dive show had that was good were scheduled lectures/talks from 'interesting' people about various topics - perhaps if you could get a few people to present something (suspension principles, wiring, body work etc.) it would be something that appeals to the existing builders/owners/tinkerers.
Do any of the manufacturers do demo-builds at the shows?
Perhaps if people watched a car being put together they might not think it such a daunting task?
Like the idea of the slalom course, demo runs etc. what about 'pit stop challenge' and possibly getting a couple of the simulators or something?
Not sure if any of that helps!
Chris
Have frequented the Dive show at the NEC the last few years and that seems to be suffering the same - smaller numbers of traders and MOP and horrendous entry/parking/food costs.
The one thing I do think the Dive show had that was good were scheduled lectures/talks from 'interesting' people about various topics - perhaps if you could get a few people to present something (suspension principles, wiring, body work etc.) it would be something that appeals to the existing builders/owners/tinkerers.
Do any of the manufacturers do demo-builds at the shows?
Perhaps if people watched a car being put together they might not think it such a daunting task?
Like the idea of the slalom course, demo runs etc. what about 'pit stop challenge' and possibly getting a couple of the simulators or something?
Not sure if any of that helps!
Chris
There appears to be a number of themes which have now become intertwined. Entertainments is a separate issue to exhibiting. Entertainers provide a service and need to be paid. Whether they need to attend is another matter as I have no proof that they directly attract anybody to a kit car show. 'The Cars are the Stars' is an old but reliable adage. However entertainers do enlighten any event and if people enjoy this addition they may well feel better about the show and maybe will look forward to the next one.
The idea that manufacturers should be paid falls on stoney ground with me. The bottom line of any event is that somebody has to pay for all this. I have yet to come across an organiser who wasn't an ordinary guy and his family just trying to do their best. By creating Stafford I invested my time. money and expertise to create a profitable event that provided manufacturers and others with a sales opportunity. Without profit there can be no incentive to create such an excessive drain on personal finance. If manufacturers took a chance and invested in my show (actually they invested in me) I worked hard to ensure that they achieved sales success. I would suggest that I succeeded at least generally as my idea lasted in its original concept for 19 years.
The idea that I should pay for a hall and then pay again to fill it is a nonsense, not that I didn't do this once upon a time, as this was the norm with custom car shows in the seventies. This sheer insanity extinquished the major custom shows very quickly when attendance figures fell below 30,000 and the vacuum was filled by small hard core events where the same people who were once paid to attend went to them anyway. They needed the oxygen of showing their cars publicly
Paying car owners did not lead to better cars or increased attendance. Instead it led to high expense and high expectations plus a lack of respect from car owners to show organisers. Too many thought that their cars were the stars of the show and I see this repeated a small way in threads on kit car shows with some openly saying 'Without my car and others like me there would be no show' - Yes there would be sir, it's already been tried and tested.
To manufacturers a kit car show is a business opportunity, to a car owner/visitor it should be a hobby sport and no more. Attendance should be through a desire to be there and to share the experience with friends. Making a small financial contribution to the hire of a venue without which the whole event could not happen should not be resented. Owners should never class themselves as exhibitors unless offically entered and a prior commitment being made to the organiser.
Stafford 88 - 96 encouraged clubs to attend and if their members were prepared to supply cars for the whole weekend on an official indoor club stand, then not only did the driver get in free but so did his family and a couple of friends. They also received trophies and awards and they felt part of the show and returned every year. Big clubs such as the then Dutton Owners Club could select six cars out of many and that made a displaying on the club stand an honour within the club. It also meant that show visitors saw the very best in Duttons when they came into the hall.
Popping along for a few hours if the weather is fine is no committment, indeed it is not even something the organisesr can rely on. Shows are about committment, those Dutton owners and the other 80 indoor club cars made that commmittment and were all made to feel part of the show (my committment). The modern 'I might attend the show if I feel OK on the day' approach does not add anything to a show at all.
The idea that kit car owners get in free and then became dominant in thinking rather than remaining as an appreciated concession is an issue that must be addressed, particularly if it spawns a 'I'm not going if they do not let me in free'. no matter how good the show might be to everybody else. Such an attitude is a return to showing contempt to the organisers with whom no shows would exist. But then it must have been a laxity by show organisers that allowed train of thought to take root.
Never forget that 'somebody (the organiser) has to pay for all this' and clearly he is now struggling. How about helping by being part of the scene without expecting to be rewarded?
One thing is for sure, without shows the world would be a poorer place.
The idea that manufacturers should be paid falls on stoney ground with me. The bottom line of any event is that somebody has to pay for all this. I have yet to come across an organiser who wasn't an ordinary guy and his family just trying to do their best. By creating Stafford I invested my time. money and expertise to create a profitable event that provided manufacturers and others with a sales opportunity. Without profit there can be no incentive to create such an excessive drain on personal finance. If manufacturers took a chance and invested in my show (actually they invested in me) I worked hard to ensure that they achieved sales success. I would suggest that I succeeded at least generally as my idea lasted in its original concept for 19 years.
The idea that I should pay for a hall and then pay again to fill it is a nonsense, not that I didn't do this once upon a time, as this was the norm with custom car shows in the seventies. This sheer insanity extinquished the major custom shows very quickly when attendance figures fell below 30,000 and the vacuum was filled by small hard core events where the same people who were once paid to attend went to them anyway. They needed the oxygen of showing their cars publicly
Paying car owners did not lead to better cars or increased attendance. Instead it led to high expense and high expectations plus a lack of respect from car owners to show organisers. Too many thought that their cars were the stars of the show and I see this repeated a small way in threads on kit car shows with some openly saying 'Without my car and others like me there would be no show' - Yes there would be sir, it's already been tried and tested.
To manufacturers a kit car show is a business opportunity, to a car owner/visitor it should be a hobby sport and no more. Attendance should be through a desire to be there and to share the experience with friends. Making a small financial contribution to the hire of a venue without which the whole event could not happen should not be resented. Owners should never class themselves as exhibitors unless offically entered and a prior commitment being made to the organiser.
Stafford 88 - 96 encouraged clubs to attend and if their members were prepared to supply cars for the whole weekend on an official indoor club stand, then not only did the driver get in free but so did his family and a couple of friends. They also received trophies and awards and they felt part of the show and returned every year. Big clubs such as the then Dutton Owners Club could select six cars out of many and that made a displaying on the club stand an honour within the club. It also meant that show visitors saw the very best in Duttons when they came into the hall.
Popping along for a few hours if the weather is fine is no committment, indeed it is not even something the organisesr can rely on. Shows are about committment, those Dutton owners and the other 80 indoor club cars made that commmittment and were all made to feel part of the show (my committment). The modern 'I might attend the show if I feel OK on the day' approach does not add anything to a show at all.
The idea that kit car owners get in free and then became dominant in thinking rather than remaining as an appreciated concession is an issue that must be addressed, particularly if it spawns a 'I'm not going if they do not let me in free'. no matter how good the show might be to everybody else. Such an attitude is a return to showing contempt to the organisers with whom no shows would exist. But then it must have been a laxity by show organisers that allowed train of thought to take root.
Never forget that 'somebody (the organiser) has to pay for all this' and clearly he is now struggling. How about helping by being part of the scene without expecting to be rewarded?
One thing is for sure, without shows the world would be a poorer place.
DEN TANNER said:
The sums wouldn’t add up I’m afraid...
Stuart Mills said:
Entertainers should be paid, not exhibitors...
Then regrettably, with the advent of the internet as a virtually free means of reaching a huge audience with multi-media information on your product, I think you're going to see a continued decline in manufacturer attendance at kit car shows and the downward spiral that I set out above.In which case your model for future kit car shows has to be based on the assumption of a gathering of kit car owners/clubs with a handful of side stands/sideshows, with no significant manufacturer presence?
Sorry to be so pessimistic, but with even major events like national motorshows failing to be commercially viable, these days, I don't see how you can generate viable levels of interest in such a niche area, if you're intent on fleecing (Den's words, not mine!
) both sheep and sheepdogs. DEN TANNER said:
On the income side; he’ll get about 2000 paying punters this year (it’s been better in years past) at £11 inc VAT which equates to £18,333 nett.
How could the £32,000 gap be bridged if manufacturers were not paying for their stands?
Even if that gap could be bridged; would there be enough over to pay manufacturers to attend?
On the other hand, would £32K really be such a big gap to bridge? At a tenner a head, that's 3,200 extra people through the gates. Sure, that's a 260% increase in over your current attendance levels, but is that really such an unachievable target if you marketed the show hard to manufacturers and major component suppliers as a free showcase for their products that they can't afford not to attend? How could the £32,000 gap be bridged if manufacturers were not paying for their stands?
Even if that gap could be bridged; would there be enough over to pay manufacturers to attend?
The reason you're getting crap attendance is that you're putting on crap shows with little to look at. How many people did Stoneleigh used to get through the gates before the rot set in?
You wouldn't have to pay everyone to attend (maybe just a few key players if they were reluctant to attend on commercial grounds) and hopefully success would breed success. Do it right, and in the medium term there might be scope to turn it into a 'National Specialist Sports and Racing car' show, to widen the scope of interest...invite a few 'prestige' niche manufacturers like Lotus, Morgan, Radical, Ariel to increase the credibility and you could recapture some of the serious enthusiasts that the Autosports show has now lost engagement with?
Bottom line is that you have to reverse the current trend. Maybe that's unachieveable, but it's certainly unachievable if you're too timid in terms of ambition and marketing of the event.
Fair Parking said:
How about helping by being part of the scene without expecting to be rewarded?
That cuts both ways: If the shows aren't generating a substantial part of manufacturers' revenue in comparison to their other forms of marketing, it's adding insult to injury to expect them to pay for the privilege of being part of the 'scene' whilst the organiser takes a profit on both sides.Kit car manufacturers - the ones that survive, anyway - are businesses, not charities. They will do things if it benefits them financially. They can't - especially in the current climate - be expected to support things that cost them money, out of the mere goodness of their hearts, for the benefit of the 'scene'.
Sam_68 said:
That cuts both ways: If the shows aren't generating a substantial part of manufacturers' revenue in comparison to their other forms of marketing, it's adding insult to injury to expect them to pay for the privilege of being part of the 'scene' whilst the organiser takes a profit on both sides.
Kit car manufacturers - the ones that survive, anyway - are businesses, not charities. They will do things if it benefits them financially. They can't - especially in the current climate - be expected to support things that cost them money, out of the mere goodness of their hearts, for the benefit of the 'scene'.
Which manufacturers are you talking about? I ask because shows have to be part of the marketing 'mix" not by themselves do they generate sales, but what shows do is allow the potential buyer to see and feel (and sometimes experience) the car in the flesh. The theory of websites taking over from shows and enabling manufacturers to sell by this mean alone just isn't plausible, yes there will be a few customers who have bought a kit car via the website without seeing the car in person first but very few I'm sure purchase this way. The issue we have is a much smaller market due to increased economic pressures and a change of interest from the younger generation who aren't exposed by their Fathers, brothers, Uncles and neighbours to servicing and fiddling with their cars so have no interest in the "goings" on under a cars skin, its all aesthetics and performance now days. Adding entertainment to a kit car show is a great idea, but would cost, good example is the hire of Shane Lynch doing doughnuts in the car park at Rockingham this year at the The French Car show, there was quite a few thousand pounds spent on this and the 4000+ French car owners who paid £15.00 to park outside the place seemed happy with this event, not sure it would suit the Kit car show attendees though. The idea behind Stafford was to offer a very affordable show to exhibit at, apparently even at Stafford some manufacturers have told me they sold cars, so they do work but just don't get the support.Kit car manufacturers - the ones that survive, anyway - are businesses, not charities. They will do things if it benefits them financially. They can't - especially in the current climate - be expected to support things that cost them money, out of the mere goodness of their hearts, for the benefit of the 'scene'.
Edited by tombs on Thursday 13th October 19:36
Edited by tombs on Thursday 13th October 19:37
tombs said:
Which manufacturers are you talking about?
Surely this is self evident?Which manufacturers are businesses?
All of them.
Which manufacturers have decided that the cost (both monetary and in terms of time) involved in attending shows does not represent good value in terms of sales returns?
Those who have chosen to vote with their feet and stayed away... get yourself a list of manufacturer exhibitors at any recent kit car show (try Stafford, if you want to keep things on-topic), then deduct it from a list of current UK manufacturers and you have your answer.
tombs said:
The theory of websites taking over from shows and enabling manufacturers to sell by this mean alone just isn't plausible, yes there will be a few customers who have bought a kit car via the website without seeing the car in person first but very few I'm sure purchase this way. ..
I agree completely and I never suggested such a theory.But in the old days, I would attend shows as an essential part of my initial selection process, before deciding whether a car merited further investigation.
It allowed a better idea of what the car looked like 'in the flesh' than the handful of photos (at best) that would be published in the kit car press, and it was the only practicable way to discuss aspects of the car with other owners.
These days, the internet allows a manufacturer to present large numbers of photos, written information, video, build manuals, etc. at next to no cost, and I can discuss aspects of the car with other owners in extended detail, whenever I want to, on the relevant forums.
Certainly, I would then go to visit the manufacturer and test drive the car (or a short list of a few cars) before making a final decision, but I would do that even if I had attended a show... if only to assess the manufacturer's production capability and apparent business stability, and to get the opportunity of more detailed, one-to-one discussion with the manufacturer and a decent opportunity to test drive a demonstrator.
Put bluntly, I don't need to attend shows any more, so there has to be enough there of interest to make me want to, before I squander time, admission fees and (for most people; I'm fortunate in getting it free) petrol in travelling half way across the country to attend.
What we seem to have here is a handful of people who just love to post on forums lots and lots of negativity and tell everyone why they have got it all wrong. It's fascinating how more often than not these folk are not even active in the industry other than posting on forums. Now I'm not singling anyone out here and hopefully we can all keep our cool but it is something that happens on lots of forums across no end of fields in which people have a passion about.
We've got a lot of helpful discussion going on and it's good to hear people's perspectives on things. Most of us I think are in agreement that what needs to happen is more engagement of ALL who attend the shows.
Interestingly I happened to be at a completely different show last week held at a world famous venue with lots of advertising and even people phoning up to ask if you were going to the show. It was all done in a very professional manner and very efficient BUT it lacked any soul at all. There was nothing much of any genuine interest there. It was just the top teams with very smart stands that looked no different than their websites only they were in 3D.
Both of us wandered around the show desperately trying to find anything really worthwhile seeing and were generally pretty disappointed that there was nothing that genuinely interested us. UNTIL we found the stand which was marketing to the disabled. It was manned by disabled and featured some pretty agricultural by comparison goods compared to the slick no expense spared stands, but there was a genuine enthusiasm which came obviously from the heart of these exhibitors. Plus what was really really good was that there was a test area where we could try things out for ourselves. Despite having another test area for the slick professional stuff which we had tried earlier, it was this stand and what they provided that totally changed our entire thinking on the show. It was GREAT! we thoroughly enjoyed it and we had a great day and came away with lots of ideas and enthusiasm. This is the magic that we need to try and find and provide but it's got to be natural. I think it's pretty obvious that it's clubs that are the key really. After all a club is a club because you have a gathering of like minded people who want to get together.
The Kit Car shows of years gone by used to involve the clubs and individuals by having things that would involve people and people of all kinds would take part in them. There was Concours there was the UFO awards there were skills tests and yes there were let's build a car right now events too. It was above all though, all good fun!
This weekend I've got to do some GRP work on a customer rebuild and also do some prep work on a car that only a few weeks ago I'd overtaken countless top marque cars on the F1 circuit at Silverstone in. So a pretty exciting car but you know what? There's a show on with a bunch of school kids who have made endurance racers out of bicycle parts and a couple of car batteries and I've had several invites from some of the kids taking part in it to go along and support them. You know where I'd really like to be? Well I'd prefer to be looking at the stuff made out of corrugated plastic and bits of Dexion than working on these cars. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love these cars we're building. After all one which I drive enables me to overtake the likes of Ferraris and Lamborghinis so who wouldn't? But seeing people making things and learning how they can be a part of something is pretty special. It's got that infection I experienced in a small corner of a hall at the NEC last week and it's this that we need to find and get to the fore of what Kit Cars are all about.
Oh by the way the show I'd like to be going to is also free to anyone who wants to go along and it's at Goodwood on Sunday. Greenpower, it's electric carts made by kids at their schools. These are the kids who in only a couple more years will be the ones who will be buying, building and competing in all kinds of cars. One of them tonight rang me and told me that he's going to build his own himself when he's on his holiday and he's only just turned 13.
We've got a lot of helpful discussion going on and it's good to hear people's perspectives on things. Most of us I think are in agreement that what needs to happen is more engagement of ALL who attend the shows.
Interestingly I happened to be at a completely different show last week held at a world famous venue with lots of advertising and even people phoning up to ask if you were going to the show. It was all done in a very professional manner and very efficient BUT it lacked any soul at all. There was nothing much of any genuine interest there. It was just the top teams with very smart stands that looked no different than their websites only they were in 3D.
Both of us wandered around the show desperately trying to find anything really worthwhile seeing and were generally pretty disappointed that there was nothing that genuinely interested us. UNTIL we found the stand which was marketing to the disabled. It was manned by disabled and featured some pretty agricultural by comparison goods compared to the slick no expense spared stands, but there was a genuine enthusiasm which came obviously from the heart of these exhibitors. Plus what was really really good was that there was a test area where we could try things out for ourselves. Despite having another test area for the slick professional stuff which we had tried earlier, it was this stand and what they provided that totally changed our entire thinking on the show. It was GREAT! we thoroughly enjoyed it and we had a great day and came away with lots of ideas and enthusiasm. This is the magic that we need to try and find and provide but it's got to be natural. I think it's pretty obvious that it's clubs that are the key really. After all a club is a club because you have a gathering of like minded people who want to get together.
The Kit Car shows of years gone by used to involve the clubs and individuals by having things that would involve people and people of all kinds would take part in them. There was Concours there was the UFO awards there were skills tests and yes there were let's build a car right now events too. It was above all though, all good fun!
This weekend I've got to do some GRP work on a customer rebuild and also do some prep work on a car that only a few weeks ago I'd overtaken countless top marque cars on the F1 circuit at Silverstone in. So a pretty exciting car but you know what? There's a show on with a bunch of school kids who have made endurance racers out of bicycle parts and a couple of car batteries and I've had several invites from some of the kids taking part in it to go along and support them. You know where I'd really like to be? Well I'd prefer to be looking at the stuff made out of corrugated plastic and bits of Dexion than working on these cars. Don't get me wrong I absolutely love these cars we're building. After all one which I drive enables me to overtake the likes of Ferraris and Lamborghinis so who wouldn't? But seeing people making things and learning how they can be a part of something is pretty special. It's got that infection I experienced in a small corner of a hall at the NEC last week and it's this that we need to find and get to the fore of what Kit Cars are all about.
Oh by the way the show I'd like to be going to is also free to anyone who wants to go along and it's at Goodwood on Sunday. Greenpower, it's electric carts made by kids at their schools. These are the kids who in only a couple more years will be the ones who will be buying, building and competing in all kinds of cars. One of them tonight rang me and told me that he's going to build his own himself when he's on his holiday and he's only just turned 13.
I think I'm trying to make the point Sam that the reason you state above isn't actually a common reason why manufacturers do not exhibit at certain Kit car shows and support events, having spoken to the majority of kit car manufacturers over the last 12 years as it's my job to I know it's a lot more complicated than that which one day I'll revisit and comment on.
I agree websites have a place when promoting products and services but it does cost to explore this media properly and exploit it, you need to budget a reasonable amount to continue updating and tapping into websites, viral media etc..
Sorry if I misread your post Sam on the theory of websites, point taken.
Sam, you may not need to attend shows anymore as you are probably a seasoned kit car enthusiast, but there are those who do and will and you are missing out on that face to face contact which no media no matter how clever can replace. My issue is with how we go forward with our industry and its shows and how imperative it is we explore new markets....like the Motorsport UK show in November
I agree websites have a place when promoting products and services but it does cost to explore this media properly and exploit it, you need to budget a reasonable amount to continue updating and tapping into websites, viral media etc..
Sorry if I misread your post Sam on the theory of websites, point taken.
Sam, you may not need to attend shows anymore as you are probably a seasoned kit car enthusiast, but there are those who do and will and you are missing out on that face to face contact which no media no matter how clever can replace. My issue is with how we go forward with our industry and its shows and how imperative it is we explore new markets....like the Motorsport UK show in November
Edited by tombs on Thursday 13th October 21:32
Why not use the internet and social media to promote the kit car shows and scene. There are plenty of clever tricks out there to gain interest, maybe with a bit of creative thinking and get a viral thing going. I'm sure there are many people who like the idea of building a unique car from component parts... they just don't know it yet!
Yes, the economic turndown may prevent some from affording to build but may now have introduced a new demographic.
How about having stands focussing and promoting the many uses a kit can bring. Touring, track day use, hillclimbing, drag racing, wedding carriages, green laneing. It always cheers me up to see the Liege trials cars lined up at Stoneleigh, perched on the top of a grass bank.
Dakar 4x4 to the top of Snowdon any one?
Yes, the economic turndown may prevent some from affording to build but may now have introduced a new demographic.
How about having stands focussing and promoting the many uses a kit can bring. Touring, track day use, hillclimbing, drag racing, wedding carriages, green laneing. It always cheers me up to see the Liege trials cars lined up at Stoneleigh, perched on the top of a grass bank.
Dakar 4x4 to the top of Snowdon any one?
Edited by Iwantoneofthose on Thursday 13th October 22:08
Sam to answer your point - this thread has made it plain that organisers are not making any money from shows which is why such events are dying.
To get it right all anybody has to do is to find a venue, find 50 manufacturers and 50 other exhibitors who will invest in you, be liable for £50,000 of your own money in order to put all your own ideas into reality.
Easy isn't it.
Kit car manufacturers are indeed businesses but I thought I had already said that and to them you should add the numerous other trade exhibitors that form an essential part of the shows.
On the other hand you might listen more carefully to those whose postings on here come from long and hard experience over years rather than from fanciful notions and to keep this on topic, it ain't gonna be me that keeps Stafford going for reasons I have already posted.
Give me one good reason why persons indulging in a hobby sport shouldn't make a small financial contribution from taking advantages of the facilities an expensive venue has to offer whilst at the same spending time with their friends and thousands of other like minded people.
Convince us as to why anybody should be entitled to all this for free whilst somebody else has to stump up £50,000 to make it happen.
To get it right all anybody has to do is to find a venue, find 50 manufacturers and 50 other exhibitors who will invest in you, be liable for £50,000 of your own money in order to put all your own ideas into reality.
Easy isn't it.
Kit car manufacturers are indeed businesses but I thought I had already said that and to them you should add the numerous other trade exhibitors that form an essential part of the shows.
On the other hand you might listen more carefully to those whose postings on here come from long and hard experience over years rather than from fanciful notions and to keep this on topic, it ain't gonna be me that keeps Stafford going for reasons I have already posted.
Give me one good reason why persons indulging in a hobby sport shouldn't make a small financial contribution from taking advantages of the facilities an expensive venue has to offer whilst at the same spending time with their friends and thousands of other like minded people.
Convince us as to why anybody should be entitled to all this for free whilst somebody else has to stump up £50,000 to make it happen.
Edited by Fair Parking on Friday 14th October 09:57
Edited by Fair Parking on Friday 14th October 10:03
qdos said:
What we seem to have here is a handful of people who just love to post on forums lots and lots of negativity and tell everyone why they have got it all wrong.
What we have here are a handful of people who seem to be incapable of facing up to the basic commercial reality of the situation.The facts as I see them (feel free to dispute these if you disagree with them, qdos) are as follows:
- Fact: Public attendance at shows is falling.
- Fact: Manufacturer show attendance is falling
- Fact: ultimately, any sensible and well-run business will do whatever they believe to be in the business’ best financial interest.
- Fact: the basic purpose of shows for a manufacturer is to publicise and present their product to potential purchasers.
- Fact: the internet is now the main means of the younger generation finding information on pretty much anything.
- Fact: the internet did not exist when shows were in their hay-day.
- Fact: shows cost manufacturers a substantial amount in terms of time and expenditure.
- Fact: shows reach only a very small number of customers (according to the figures being quoted on this thread, we’re talking about as few as 2000 people?), in a relatively restricted geographic area.
- Fact: internet marketing, once it is set up, is an incredibly cheap and effective way of reaching your customers.
- Fact: the internet is capable of reaching vast numbers of potential customers, globally.
Now it may be that Tombs' assertion that manufacturers are staying away for reasons other than commercial expediency is correct. However, if they are to be persuaded to change that policy, there is one and only one way that they will be persuaded:
- Convince them that there is an overwhelming case to demonstrate that it is in the best commercial interest of their business to attend.
But it’s going to be a tough job to do that, because the facts don’t seem to support it.
Fair Parking said:
Sam to answer your point - this thread has made it plain that organisers are not making any money from shows which is why such events are dying.
To get it right all anybody has to do is to find a venue, find 50 manufacturers and 50 other exhibitors who will invest in you, be liable for £50,000 of your own money in order to put all your own ideas into reality.
Easy isn't it.
Yes, I appreciate that. My personal view, as I have stated already, is that if the horse is dead, you should stop flogging it.To get it right all anybody has to do is to find a venue, find 50 manufacturers and 50 other exhibitors who will invest in you, be liable for £50,000 of your own money in order to put all your own ideas into reality.
Easy isn't it.
I appreciate that show organisers are running a business, too, but if shows aren't making any reasonable profit for anyone, why bother trying to organise them?
Qdos sees that as being negative. I see it as common sense.
Fair Parking said:
Give me one good reason why persons indulging in a hobby sport shouldn't make a small financial contribution from taking advantages of the facilities an expensive venue has to offer whilst at the same spending time with their friends and thousands of other like minded people.
If that was directed at me, then I ought to point out that I haven't suggested that they shouldn't. I'm not one of those suggesting that kit car owners should be given free entry, only kit car manufacturers (ie. the businesses you rely on to provide the core attraction and who increasingly do not appear to be making a sufficient return from their investment to tempt their involvement).Edited by Sam_68 on Friday 14th October 17:51
Not paying kit owners to attend for the reasons stated was a decision I made back in 1986 and not wishing to promote Stafford again was a decision I made in 1995.
I was under the impression that my answer to the original question on how Stafford could be revived was that sadly it has had its day.
Other shows soldier on and hopefully general attendance will improve. Learning from the experience of previous shows might just give then a fighting chance.
What would make me attend a kit car show? Cars, decent cars - a selection of everything currently available. Will a selection made up of 90% 7/exoskeleton/cobra variants entice me? No. The girls don’t hurt however btw Stiggy!
If that is all that can be offered I think that probably does mean the writing’s on the wall for shows.
It seems to me the biggest enemy of the kitcar industry is the kitcar industry. Whenever the term kitcar is used outside of the scene it is almost invariable with a negative connotation e.g. “the fit and finish was more like a kitcar than what you’d expect on a production car” etc. If a global corporation had a brand with the kind of negativity attached to it that “Kit Car” does (and you’ll find it all over PH) it would rebrand without hesitation. These cars are alternatives to the main stream. They are Alternative Cars. They should have an Alternative Car show. “See the latest kits at the kit car show” or “See the latest self build mainstream alternative cars at the Alternative Car show” – which sounds more credible? Airfix make kits FFS.
I looked at the current kit car mags in Smiths recently for the first time in years – one was the equivalent of those Machine Mart catalogues you used to get free with Exchange and Mart, little actual content and still grinding an axe that should have been dulled years ago, the next appeared to have a touch of sniff petrol Blundell style “This month we be done looking at this fantastic kit which , to be honest, is fantastic” journo about it. It also can’t decide whether it’s a car mag or a blues guitarist fanzine. Only ONE was truly edging into the 21st century – well styled, comprehensive articles and consistency throughout. These are my personal observations – your mileage may differ.
It’s interesting that on this thread it looks like suggestions are being asked for and yet blinkers are on with long established industry types on a “there’s only one way to do it which is how it’s always been done” philosophy. I see merit in Sam’s suggestion. I think he can see the wood for the trees. The world turns and keeps turning. Someone mentioned getting youngsters into the mechanical side of car ownership earlier on – thing is cars these days are simply more and more less suitable to DIY as they get more complex and, let’s face it, they don’t need the attention that they used to – they go 10’s of thousands of miles between services. They want quick fix stuff in a press button instant messaging world. A nice new flash something that gives a bit of individuality and fitted in a Halfords car park in 15 minutes. When I was younger I remember resetting the tappets and gapping/cleaning the plugs on my 5 Gordini Turbo almost every other weekend to try and ensure the ultimate performance, lol! But it’s not like that anymore and mainstream cars are sooooo capable now. I guess the equivalent now is fitting a new ECU chip or boost controller. Back in the 70’s you could build a Dutton B plus with a simple 1600 crossflow and it would outdrag all but what were deemed supercars to 60. Cortina 2000GT? No problem! Alfa GTV? Bye bye! And all for next to no money. Even base cars now are supremely capable and routinely sub 10 second 0-60 and they bloody handle. Really well. It needs something special to attract someone to defect from a production car on performance grounds (it may be easier on aesthetic grounds especially in the area of the replica styles) – they can pick up an M5 for £5k nowadays for god sake. This probably explains why the most popular alternative cars these days (see what I did there?) are 7/exoskeleton track day weapons – because they can match/exceed performance of production cars with similar new cost. These are not pratical cars though and it seems to me, with IVA and the inherent capabilities of modern mainstream cars, the only way to compete in this arena is to go back to the origins of kit cars – the body conversion, retaining all the abilities that a manufacturer has spent millions developing and giving a truly alternative and individual look to it. Stiggy is already tapping this, Simpson has been doing it for some time even the Murtaya is one donor although not really a body swap. Then there’s the MR2 Dino which disguises it’s origins very well – of course it doesn’t always work The Ride GTR350 is best forgotten I think. Again all of this is just IMHO as someone who has owned 4 prebuilt kit cars and helped build one.
Woah my tracking’s out – I seem to have gone waaaay off topic. Sorry.
So the show thing – could it be that alternative car show saturation limit is simply one show a year and it can’t support more? Why would promoters put on shows that only break even – out of the goodness of their hearts? Not buying that one. The show that most everyone would likely attend would be the show that can say “we have every alternative car manufacturer displaying in one place”. I can hear the dinosaurs now – it’ll never happen, you won’t be able to do it – of course you can do it! – it’s all about how you go about it.
Suggestion
Maybe, just maybe, there is a halfway house with Sam’s suggestion. The manufacturers display for free but for each sale they make at the show (in other words for each deposit taken) they pay say 25% of the ordinary pitch cost. So 4 sales over the weekend and they pay in full for the pitch, if they achieve no sales it costs them nothing. Kind of a reverse contingency discount. Manufacturers reading this thread how does that sound? Is it enticing? Or is it just not how it was always done
You could of course adjust the percentages but is the principle sound? Could it get almost all manufacturers to display? For fledgling manufacturers the cost risk is minimised and you may get them to display when otherwise they may not.
Or you could flip this on it’s head and say for each deposit taken the display fee reduces 25% - why would you do this? Pyschology – the manufacturer may just push that little bit harder/be that little bit more imaginative in there display to try and avoid paying the fee! I’m sure you must know some manufacturers whose attitude would be “Right we are definitely going balls out not to pay for this one!” And if they do something really special the public will respond, word gets around and greater attendance results “did you see so and so’s display”. Admittedly this is a bit radical and the argument will be "The manufacturer is trying to make as many sales as they can anyway" only one way to find out...ETA OK - I think my imagination ran away abit on this flip one because the argument from the manufacturer if they don't make sales will be poor attendence so onus would be on organiser etc. back to sqaure one. Scrap this one.
Get out of the box – it can be interesting outside!
If that is all that can be offered I think that probably does mean the writing’s on the wall for shows.
It seems to me the biggest enemy of the kitcar industry is the kitcar industry. Whenever the term kitcar is used outside of the scene it is almost invariable with a negative connotation e.g. “the fit and finish was more like a kitcar than what you’d expect on a production car” etc. If a global corporation had a brand with the kind of negativity attached to it that “Kit Car” does (and you’ll find it all over PH) it would rebrand without hesitation. These cars are alternatives to the main stream. They are Alternative Cars. They should have an Alternative Car show. “See the latest kits at the kit car show” or “See the latest self build mainstream alternative cars at the Alternative Car show” – which sounds more credible? Airfix make kits FFS.
I looked at the current kit car mags in Smiths recently for the first time in years – one was the equivalent of those Machine Mart catalogues you used to get free with Exchange and Mart, little actual content and still grinding an axe that should have been dulled years ago, the next appeared to have a touch of sniff petrol Blundell style “This month we be done looking at this fantastic kit which , to be honest, is fantastic” journo about it. It also can’t decide whether it’s a car mag or a blues guitarist fanzine. Only ONE was truly edging into the 21st century – well styled, comprehensive articles and consistency throughout. These are my personal observations – your mileage may differ.
It’s interesting that on this thread it looks like suggestions are being asked for and yet blinkers are on with long established industry types on a “there’s only one way to do it which is how it’s always been done” philosophy. I see merit in Sam’s suggestion. I think he can see the wood for the trees. The world turns and keeps turning. Someone mentioned getting youngsters into the mechanical side of car ownership earlier on – thing is cars these days are simply more and more less suitable to DIY as they get more complex and, let’s face it, they don’t need the attention that they used to – they go 10’s of thousands of miles between services. They want quick fix stuff in a press button instant messaging world. A nice new flash something that gives a bit of individuality and fitted in a Halfords car park in 15 minutes. When I was younger I remember resetting the tappets and gapping/cleaning the plugs on my 5 Gordini Turbo almost every other weekend to try and ensure the ultimate performance, lol! But it’s not like that anymore and mainstream cars are sooooo capable now. I guess the equivalent now is fitting a new ECU chip or boost controller. Back in the 70’s you could build a Dutton B plus with a simple 1600 crossflow and it would outdrag all but what were deemed supercars to 60. Cortina 2000GT? No problem! Alfa GTV? Bye bye! And all for next to no money. Even base cars now are supremely capable and routinely sub 10 second 0-60 and they bloody handle. Really well. It needs something special to attract someone to defect from a production car on performance grounds (it may be easier on aesthetic grounds especially in the area of the replica styles) – they can pick up an M5 for £5k nowadays for god sake. This probably explains why the most popular alternative cars these days (see what I did there?) are 7/exoskeleton track day weapons – because they can match/exceed performance of production cars with similar new cost. These are not pratical cars though and it seems to me, with IVA and the inherent capabilities of modern mainstream cars, the only way to compete in this arena is to go back to the origins of kit cars – the body conversion, retaining all the abilities that a manufacturer has spent millions developing and giving a truly alternative and individual look to it. Stiggy is already tapping this, Simpson has been doing it for some time even the Murtaya is one donor although not really a body swap. Then there’s the MR2 Dino which disguises it’s origins very well – of course it doesn’t always work The Ride GTR350 is best forgotten I think. Again all of this is just IMHO as someone who has owned 4 prebuilt kit cars and helped build one.
Woah my tracking’s out – I seem to have gone waaaay off topic. Sorry.
So the show thing – could it be that alternative car show saturation limit is simply one show a year and it can’t support more? Why would promoters put on shows that only break even – out of the goodness of their hearts? Not buying that one. The show that most everyone would likely attend would be the show that can say “we have every alternative car manufacturer displaying in one place”. I can hear the dinosaurs now – it’ll never happen, you won’t be able to do it – of course you can do it! – it’s all about how you go about it.
Suggestion
Maybe, just maybe, there is a halfway house with Sam’s suggestion. The manufacturers display for free but for each sale they make at the show (in other words for each deposit taken) they pay say 25% of the ordinary pitch cost. So 4 sales over the weekend and they pay in full for the pitch, if they achieve no sales it costs them nothing. Kind of a reverse contingency discount. Manufacturers reading this thread how does that sound? Is it enticing? Or is it just not how it was always done
You could of course adjust the percentages but is the principle sound? Could it get almost all manufacturers to display? For fledgling manufacturers the cost risk is minimised and you may get them to display when otherwise they may not.Or you could flip this on it’s head and say for each deposit taken the display fee reduces 25% - why would you do this? Pyschology – the manufacturer may just push that little bit harder/be that little bit more imaginative in there display to try and avoid paying the fee! I’m sure you must know some manufacturers whose attitude would be “Right we are definitely going balls out not to pay for this one!” And if they do something really special the public will respond, word gets around and greater attendance results “did you see so and so’s display”. Admittedly this is a bit radical and the argument will be "The manufacturer is trying to make as many sales as they can anyway" only one way to find out...ETA OK - I think my imagination ran away abit on this flip one because the argument from the manufacturer if they don't make sales will be poor attendence so onus would be on organiser etc. back to sqaure one. Scrap this one.
Get out of the box – it can be interesting outside!
Edited by smash on Friday 14th October 14:21
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