KITCAR TRENDS YEAR 2008
Discussion
feet said:
Probably loads more 7s. Just use BMWs instead of sierras - there are millions of beemers about today, ready for when the sierra bits finally run out
You beat me to that one. Makes me wonder why more firms haven't switched to Bimmer donors. AFAIK Marlin (and RV Dynamics Cobra) are the only cars which use these by design. I guess the older BMWs are still seen as worth preserving, whereas a Sierra of the same age is seen as scrapheap fodder. Whether people will feel the same about a 1990s BMW in a few years is another matter. (I think probably not)
Does anyone know of a reason why a 3 (or 5) series BMW makes a less suitable donor than a Sierra? Other than potential cost?
The only thing I can see against the beemers makign good donors for 7's is that the straight 6 makes a pinto look svelte! Despite the extra power getting the balance right would be challenging for such a light car. Better for larger vehicles though.
The bmw 4 cylinder models would probably be ok though.
>> Edited by peetbee to fix spelling after TigerK was so kind to me!
>> Edited by peetbee on Thursday 29th July 08:52
The bmw 4 cylinder models would probably be ok though.
>> Edited by peetbee to fix spelling after TigerK was so kind to me!
>> Edited by peetbee on Thursday 29th July 08:52
tigerk said:
Does anyone know of a reason why a 3 (or 5) series BMW makes a less suitable donor than a Sierra? Other than potential cost?
My guess would be that an E21 or E30 would probably be alright as a donor car, but if you start moving through the E36 and especially to the E46 you'll start running into problems with the electronics. Unless you're only planning on using the mechanical parts (diff, prop shafts, brakes, etc.) and nothing with too much electronic interference, or you're willing to start playing with aftermarket injection, etc.
Something I was reading re microcontrollers recently stated that a typical BMW these days contains 70+ microcontroller chips along with associated programming and supporting circuits.
Meeja said:
Will there be an online build diary?!
Knowing your programming knowledge and the digital camera you have access to I am expecting something rather flash.....
Not sure about it to be honest. I wasn't planning on it. I've got enough on my plate with work, a customer site in development, the kit, maintaining the daily driver and all the other hairbrain schemes I keep coming up with - microcontroller controlled composites oven with vacuum bag consolidation anyone?
But, I'll be taking loads of photos so if there turns out to be any interest, I'll be able to throw something together
>> Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 29th July 09:35
tigerk said:
My guess would be that an E21 or E30 would probably be alright as a donor car, but if you start moving through the E36 and especially to the E46 you'll start running into problems with the electronics. Unless you're only planning on using the mechanical parts (diff, prop shafts, brakes, etc.) and nothing with too much electronic interference, or you're willing to start playing with aftermarket injection, etc.
That will be the biggest problem for future development of kits.
Costs will have to go up if we use modern engines as electronic control systems will need to be replaced.
Then you get to the stage where a good secondhand Elise will be much better value.
I'd say a mid-engined car that takes the complete drivetrain from a FWD donor would be most likely to taske over the reign of Sevenesque thingies as a 'volume' kit car design.
IMHO there's enough excellent FWD hot hatches and derivatives thereof at low prices (specially when bought after the initial steep part of the depreciation curve) to make the prospect of a FWD kit car look a little pointless. Having swappable body parts to make it a roadster, coupé, pick-up etc. to distinguish it from mainstream offerings is a nice idea in theory - but how many folks would be bothered anyways? It's been done before, and I can't think of one that wasn't more than slightly compromised in the looks, driving or useability departments.
IMHO there's enough excellent FWD hot hatches and derivatives thereof at low prices (specially when bought after the initial steep part of the depreciation curve) to make the prospect of a FWD kit car look a little pointless. Having swappable body parts to make it a roadster, coupé, pick-up etc. to distinguish it from mainstream offerings is a nice idea in theory - but how many folks would be bothered anyways? It's been done before, and I can't think of one that wasn't more than slightly compromised in the looks, driving or useability departments.
I think we're already starting to see the arrival of these midengined cars with the Sylva Mojo, Marlin 5exi, Shelsley, Aeon, Quantum sunrunner and others.
There have been a couple of attempts at leaving the engine in the front where it came from with the Jester, Onyx and quantum +2 but they've not really met with that much success so far.
Perhaps once the cheap rear wheel drive donors start getting thin on the ground these designs will become the norm. I certainly hope that the styling continues to improve as some of them have been spectacularly unimpressive on that front.
There have been a couple of attempts at leaving the engine in the front where it came from with the Jester, Onyx and quantum +2 but they've not really met with that much success so far.
Perhaps once the cheap rear wheel drive donors start getting thin on the ground these designs will become the norm. I certainly hope that the styling continues to improve as some of them have been spectacularly unimpressive on that front.
In no particular order...
The market has been bogged down with endless Seven and Cobra ripoffs for years. What I'd like to see is a bit more originality. Sadly much original styling in the kit car market is dire. IMHO this is why replicas have done so well. They actually look good.
Fit and finish. The kit car industry has improved enormously over the years but I know someone who has had endless silly problems with a well known kit that's been around for years. Most of these problems were related to highly misleading statements along the lines that any combination of drivetrain parts would fit when in fact only a few common ones would. If I was selling a kit I'd list exactly what would fit by part numbers and model types. Must try harder.
A decent chassis design. When will they learn that a duff spaceframe just makes getting in and out harder, makes fitting parts harder, adds cost and is actually heavier than a simple X braced ladder frame for the same stiffness? If you don't know what you're doing don't try to pretend you do. If we are going to be taken seriously in the future then we'll need better chassis for handling, better support for the bodywork and to comply with crash resistance.
Doors. Stop trying to adjust them by shimming the hinge. This is a silly way to do it. I suggest the following method. Rigidly mount the hinges. Adjust the skin of the door on the internal door frame. The frame also forms the crash structure. It is much easier, for example, to adjust the height of a door by adjusting a screw at each end of the door than it is to squeeze in shims under one of the hinges while contorted under the dashboard.
The market has been bogged down with endless Seven and Cobra ripoffs for years. What I'd like to see is a bit more originality. Sadly much original styling in the kit car market is dire. IMHO this is why replicas have done so well. They actually look good.
Fit and finish. The kit car industry has improved enormously over the years but I know someone who has had endless silly problems with a well known kit that's been around for years. Most of these problems were related to highly misleading statements along the lines that any combination of drivetrain parts would fit when in fact only a few common ones would. If I was selling a kit I'd list exactly what would fit by part numbers and model types. Must try harder.
A decent chassis design. When will they learn that a duff spaceframe just makes getting in and out harder, makes fitting parts harder, adds cost and is actually heavier than a simple X braced ladder frame for the same stiffness? If you don't know what you're doing don't try to pretend you do. If we are going to be taken seriously in the future then we'll need better chassis for handling, better support for the bodywork and to comply with crash resistance.
Doors. Stop trying to adjust them by shimming the hinge. This is a silly way to do it. I suggest the following method. Rigidly mount the hinges. Adjust the skin of the door on the internal door frame. The frame also forms the crash structure. It is much easier, for example, to adjust the height of a door by adjusting a screw at each end of the door than it is to squeeze in shims under one of the hinges while contorted under the dashboard.
Cymtriks
Very good points, and as they say, sometimes the basics are not there.
On the design or styling of the kits, a lot can be said and done, but it all boils down to costs.
Very few are willing to invest in something really different, because if it doesn't succed you are out .
It's easier to invest on a seven clone or cobra replica, they have about 70/75% of the kit market, and you are sure you are going to sell them, than invest money on new kit designs, where they failure rate is pretty high.
I also think that some of the kit manufactures have very little design skills, but good enogh engineering skills to create a decent kitcar. So its best to create a Replica for the design part, and then a chassis fo the engineering.
Fit and finish in most kits has inproved considerably in the past decade, but not quite yet on all counts.
Doors are always going to be difficult to make right, in fact I would try to design kitcars that would not use doors, but cut-away doors and jump in solutions. ( Seven, Ariel Atom, Dax Kamala, and others).
Easier to manufacture and engineer with limited costs.
Very good points, and as they say, sometimes the basics are not there.
On the design or styling of the kits, a lot can be said and done, but it all boils down to costs.
Very few are willing to invest in something really different, because if it doesn't succed you are out .
It's easier to invest on a seven clone or cobra replica, they have about 70/75% of the kit market, and you are sure you are going to sell them, than invest money on new kit designs, where they failure rate is pretty high.
I also think that some of the kit manufactures have very little design skills, but good enogh engineering skills to create a decent kitcar. So its best to create a Replica for the design part, and then a chassis fo the engineering.
Fit and finish in most kits has inproved considerably in the past decade, but not quite yet on all counts.
Doors are always going to be difficult to make right, in fact I would try to design kitcars that would not use doors, but cut-away doors and jump in solutions. ( Seven, Ariel Atom, Dax Kamala, and others).
Easier to manufacture and engineer with limited costs.
cymtriks said:
A decent chassis design. When will they learn that a duff spaceframe just makes getting in and out harder, makes fitting parts harder, adds cost and is actually heavier than a simple X braced ladder frame for the same stiffness? If you don't know what you're doing don't try to pretend you do. If we are going to be taken seriously in the future then we'll need better chassis for handling, better support for the bodywork and to comply with crash resistance.
perhaps i'm just being pedantic, but this reads as if you are advocating the use of ladder frames over spaceframes . i'm no engineer, but to me a good spaceframe is preferable to a good ladder frame when it come to torsional stiffness (a bad frame of either sort should be avoided). well, at least thats one reason why i bought my stratos - should i have bought a cobra or se7en? i think i made the right decision
vojx said:Vojx, take a look at some of cymtriks' previous posts. My understanding of his position is that a good ladder frame chassis is better than a bad spaceframe.
perhaps i'm just being pedantic, but this reads as if you are advocating the use of ladder frames over spaceframes .
Personally, I'd rather have a lightweight composite monocoque...
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