Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

[Dreamspeed]

KDIcarmad said:

A quick comment on this transverse against in-line and it limiting engine size. Lamborghini use a transverse V12 in the Miura. Yes, they now use in-line, just interesting. I do not know why the switched?

Yes they did, (in my imagery dream 10 car garage, the Miura would be high on my list BTW!) But as far as I know, they’re the only company to do a transverse V12. I think as a general rule of thumb, you can go straight 4 or V6 transverse, but anything bigger V8, V10, V12 it’s all inline.

So if you want monster power, using currently available donor parts, in-line is the way to go. Yes you can get monster power from a 4 pot turbo, but it’s all boost, and I really don’t think the life of the engine will be that great.

You got me thinking, didn’t there used to be a Miura Kit-car? I haven’t seen one in years, not even at the Stoneleigh Show yesterday. I wonder how they did the transverse Jag/Bmw V12 like in the in-line Countach/diablo kits?

[smash]

There is - Parallel Designs are STILL working on it - only been about 6 years now I think! they're using Audi power.

http://lamborghinimiura.co.uk/

Vortex/Phantom was a great car at the time but it looks quite dated to me - the MG Rover design lineage which is plain to see doesn't help IMHO.

Very much looking forward to seeing your creation Dreamspeed based on your comments so far...

Edited by smash on Monday 7th May 18:50

[OwenK]

smash said:

There is - Parallel Designs are STILL working on it - only been about 6 years now I think! they're using Audi power.

Vortex/Phantom was a great car at the time but it looks quite dated to me - the MG Rover design lineage which is plain to see doesn't help IMHO.

Very much looking forward to seeing your creation Dreamspeed based on your comments so far...

MG Rover design? What?

[smash]

Chris Greville-Smith was chief engineer for Rover. Not saying it apes a Rover design as such, just that it has things about it that (I think at any rate) are very "of the period" Rover-esq

[KDIcarmad]

OwenK said:

smash said:

There is - Parallel Designs are STILL working on it - only been about 6 years now I think! they're using Audi power.

Vortex/Phantom was a great car at the time but it looks quite dated to me - the MG Rover design lineage which is plain to see doesn't help IMHO.

Very much looking forward to seeing your creation Dreamspeed based on your comments so far...

MG Rover design? What?

I believe the designer worked for MG/Rover. This design has no connection beyond that and the use of a Rover donor parts. If MG had I wonder if it would have saved them. Add the MG6R4 running gear to the mix and you would have a very interesting car. Any one done a MG6R4 kit! Or a Jaguar XK220 (used the engine from thr MG6R4).

[EddyP]

KDIcarmad said:

Great car! Looks classic and bit Ferrari from some angles and totally different from others! It looks a bit out of place in front of those house, it should be in the south of France surrounded by glamour model driven by a film star or sporting celebrity. A great kit car, this show that there are still people who believe in good design selling.

Now if I was designing a post to get interest in a new Kit Car show I would used the Vortex.

Unfortunately that was the most recent photo, and the houses next to the MOT station aren't the nicest ;-)

Thanks for the other comments, we're currently working on some better publicity photos.

[EddyP]

Dreamspeed said:

I did have a very close look at this kitcar (When it was called the Phantom), and I have to agree it’s a very good looking project for the money, very well finished, has a factory look and most people probably would think it wasn’t a kitcar; if you’d built it well and trimmed the interior ok, but there were a few issues that put me off; Now, this isn’t criticism, it’s just my personal preference:

It has a “one piece” body shell, so if I wanted to go racing, accident damage would be costly, and would have to be done by the professionals. (I’m not even sure if Vortex sell part of the body shell to graphed onto a damaged car or if you would have to buy a complete shell) There’s too many “butchered” Lotus’s, TVRs out there for the same reason. If the body was modular, panels could be replaced by the original DIY builder.

There’s another more problematic issue with “one piece” body shell’s that will affect everyone, even if you don’t go racing, and anyone who’s worked on cars like this will agree; this is very poor access to anything that needs replacing. The engine bay has very poor access, and being a hand built car, with used donor parts; things will go wrong, and when they do you’re on your back, under this car, jacked up on axle stands on your drive, cursing the poor mechanical access as the dirt and grit fall into your eyes, just because the bearings are noisy on your alternator.

I strongly believe that a car designed to be built by an amateur builder; is that thought MUST be given to the continued use/maintenance/repair/general tinkering of the car by the same amateur mechanic, after all most builders don’t have the resources of say Kwik-Fit. Also many builders don’t have the full budget to complete a car to their “dream” spec, so they may build the car to a stage where they can drive it, but then go back to it, over possibly many years, and upgrade when funds allow.

Thirdly, and this is just what I’m looking for in a kitcar, I really would like an in-line engine/gearbox set up, as opposed to the usual transverse “front wheel drive” engine layout. You have better weight distribution with this layout, plus a far greater selection of more powerful engines, such as V8’s, plus it’s a little more exotic. But that’s just my personnel preference and does not take away from the Honda/Ford engine/gearbox combo’s in the Vortex GTR, but I’d like to add, if any one reading this has ever tried replacing the clutch or alternator on a Mondeo or Cougar, you will know that these are extremely difficult and costly jobs to do.

That said, I do like the styling of this car, and I believe that’s why people buy the kit, but, and again this is a personnel preference, the styling is a little too “understated” for me. It’s almost too mainstream. If I were to spend £20,000 I would really like something that turns heads, of even the most “anti-car” person. However, I do understand the difficulties of trying to design something great looking, with the restrictions of IVA and Donor parts, so I would accept the styling, if only everything else I’ve mentioned had been addressed.

But yes, we need more kit’s like this on the market, in fact if there were more choice of this type of car, just as there are “track-day” machines, then the kit-car world would be in a very different place today and I don’t think this thread would have even started.

Hi,

You don't need to be concerned about accident damage.
First off, the body does have some removable panels, obviously all appatures are remoavble and the rear bumper, so some areas are "bolt on" replacements.
As for having a larger accident, it has happened, one of our customers went from this:



to



This work was done by himself, at home (apart from the painting), we provided the necessary area of the mould that he needed:



So if this should happen to someone, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

As for maintenance of the running gear etc.. it's actually very very easy, if anything maybe even easier than in the production car, i'll give you an example with a development car we've recently been doing:

Rear bumper, wheels and wheel arch liner removed (Approx 20 mins work)



Access to cam belt area:



Empty engine bay:



Then all of the development for the Volvo T5 engine, including fitting of new engine mounts etc.. was carried out with the body on, in the space that you can see, the end result was:



This car was built exactly as you say, build it on a budget to start with, with standard parts (Honda V6), then go back to it later when funds allow to make it a little more fun (350 bhp)


As for it being understated and too main stream, come and see me, I'll take you out in it, and you can count the number of heads that turn, everywhere it goes it gets a LOT of attention.

Sorry moderators if this is taking the thread off track a bit, feel free to split it into a seperate Vortex Auto thread if you like

Ed.

[SystemParanoia]

its a very VERY sexy car.. i can definitely see myself touring the south of France in this

[dom9]

Dreamspeed said:

Thirdly, and this is just what I’m looking for in a kitcar, I really would like an in-line engine/gearbox set up, as opposed to the usual transverse “front wheel drive” engine layout. You have better weight distribution with this layout, plus a far greater selection of more powerful engines, such as V8’s, plus it’s a little more exotic. But that’s just my personnel preference and does not take away from the Honda/Ford engine/gearbox combo’s in the Vortex GTR, but I’d like to add, if any one reading this has ever tried replacing the clutch or alternator on a Mondeo or Cougar, you will know that these are extremely difficult and costly jobs to do.

That said, I do like the styling of this car, and I believe that’s why people buy the kit, but, and again this is a personnel preference, the styling is a little too “understated” for me. It’s almost too mainstream. If I were to spend £20,000 I would really like something that turns heads, of even the most “anti-car” person. However, I do understand the difficulties of trying to design something great looking, with the restrictions of IVA and Donor parts, so I would accept the styling, if only everything else I’ve mentioned had been addressed.

I'm really looking forward to seeing pics of your car, Dreamspeed, because these are my two biggest gripes with the Vortex and we seem to think along very similar lines. To me, it is definitely the kit on the market closest to what I am looking for but it needs a longitudinal/ transaxle engine option and slightly more dramatic style to make it 'perfect'. Don't get me wrong, love it as it is, but still not quite 'enough' for me.

KDIcarmad said:

A quick comment on this transverse against in-line and it limiting engine size. Lamborghini use a transverse V12 in the Miura. Yes, they now use in-line, just interesting. I do not know why the switched?

Engine effectively sits on top of the gearbox so it's a massive weight, high up in the car and if you think of the car rolling through a corner, it's very hard to shift that weight once it has transferred to one side, which means the car isn't good in the corners. Much better to have the weight concentrated between the wheels (left to right as well as front to back) and low down.

EddyP said:

Unfortunately that was the most recent photo, and the houses next to the MOT station aren't the nicest ;-)

Thanks for the other comments, we're currently working on some better publicity photos.

Eddy, I take it you own the Vortex as a commercial enterprise? It really does look like a great car and all the reviews I've read have been glowing. But... Please, please, please can we have a bigger brother? V8 engine/ 'box and some updated styling?

[OwenK]

EddyP said:

As for it being understated and too main stream, come and see me, I'll take you out in it, and you can count the number of heads that turn, everywhere it goes it gets a LOT of attention.

Sorry moderators if this is taking the thread off track a bit, feel free to split it into a seperate Vortex Auto thread if you like

Ed.

Ed,

Thanks for the info on the Phantom/Vortex (what is it called now?!).
I personally would love a Vortex thread, for me this is one of the most interesting kit cars and all too frequently overlooked, I'd certainly have one in my stable. For example I was always of the understanding that they were £25k+, £13k or so is an excellent price and all of a sudden, much more appealing! I had a nosey at some of them at Stoneleigh including what I think was that accident damage repaired one above.

I know you were talking to someone else, but I'm fairly local to you (between Banbury and Daventry), would you be interested in a chat & a drive one evening? Feel free to give me an email through my profile.

[shunaphil]

Getting back on track....
New here and have been interested in kits since i was a teenager (now 45). Finally heading towards a point in life where i have some time and money to indulge a bit. For someone of my age, happy with plenty of spanner work my kit desires are the following :

I dont want a seven style or even a Cobra - I want a roof and a heater. The finished car has to be something the wife looks good in, and something she won't complain about messing up hair/make up/outfit

Straight line performance is fun, but its looks and noise I really want - if i want a really fast car with unbeatable handling i will buy a scooby or an evo - cheap as chips

Referring to an earlier comment - i think people of my age want a bit of nostalgia - the Nova was a kit car i will always remember - it was only a VW Beetle, but it got stared at EVERYWHERE and almost certainly still would today.

The MEV/MX5 stuff is great and i can see why its so popular, but they all look a bit 'generic' and all 'borrow' something from the current italian supercar look. They are just not 'different enough' which is the point of a kit really.

I take everyones point about the IVA , but its not THAT onerous, and we should all be used to having to 'comply' these days with all sorts or rules, so i genuinely don't think this is the major problem. The tuning / bodykit world is thriving for the young lads in their corsas etc, and these are the kit builders of tomorrow, so i think the desire is there, but maybe not the right products.

So it comes down to styling and easy availability of a donor....

Styling - i want something that looks like it was drawn by a mental chimpanzee on crack. I want pop up headlights. I want gullwing doors. Top Gear did a feature a few years ago when they took a variety of modern supercars and a countach to a school. Guess what all the boys crowded round - yes the countach.

Donor - it has to be ford - endless options and easy avilabilty of parts, endless tuning options too.

So from a technical point of view can someone as talented as Stuart Mills take his already tried and tested exo car (like a sonic) and just mould up a wacky body to go over the top? From an engineering point of view is this possible / economic?

Just my two penn'orth.

[Pat H]

Dreamspeed said:

Pat H said:

Having said that, I will be at Stoneleigh tomorrow, seeking inspiration for the next project. So if you see a white Esprit in the car park, be sure to say hello.

I thought I’d look out for a white Esprit, (I’ve had a couple myself) but there were two at the show? I know, what are the odds? But which one was yours? The one with the original Wheels or with the newer model wheels?

Mine was the completely standard HC Turbo parked next to the Elan Sprint. It was right opposite the Lotus Seven Owners' Club pitch.

I rather enjoyed the show.

[KDIcarmad]

shunaphil said:

I take everyones point about the IVA , but its not THAT onerous, and we should all be used to having to 'comply' these days with all sorts or rules, so i genuinely don't think this is the major problem. The tuning / bodykit world is thriving for the young lads in their corsas etc, and these are the kit builders of tomorrow, so i think the desire is there, but maybe not the right products.

So it comes down to styling and easy availability of a donor....

Styling - i want something that looks like it was drawn by a mental chimpanzee on crack. I want pop up headlights. I want gullwing doors. Top Gear did a feature a few years ago when they took a variety of modern supercars and a countach to a school. Guess what all the boys crowded round - yes the countach.

Donor - it has to be ford - endless options and easy avilabilty of parts, endless tuning options too.

So from a technical point of view can someone as talented as Stuart Mills take his already tried and tested exo car (like a sonic) and just mould up a wacky body to go over the top? From an engineering point of view is this possible / economic?

Just my two penn'orth.

Agree with you on IVA. As to the mental chimpanzee on crack designing car, yes please. Gullwing/Lambo doors are something I have always wanted on a car. You also commented on the young lads possible interest in kits, well I have got to know some and show them a few kit cars magazines. They dislike most of the exo cars, but loved the Nova. It was based on a design by Dennis Adams called the Prob 15.





Another over top design, that I feel out does the Nova! The Concept Centuar, sorry no pop ups of gullwing doors, its glass door flip open. This was Hillman Imp based. Image an update of this with a small car engine.

[Dreamspeed]

smash said:

There is - Parallel Designs are STILL working on it - only been about 6 years now I think! they're using Audi power.

http://lamborghinimiura.co.uk/

Vortex/Phantom was a great car at the time but it looks quite dated to me - the MG Rover design lineage which is plain to see doesn't help IMHO.

Very much looking forward to seeing your creation Dreamspeed based on your comments so far...

Edited by smash on Monday 7th May 18:50

Thanks for the link smash, now I see how they tackled the “V12 transverse” problem, they actually cheated a bit; going in-line Audi V6. I didn’t think they could do the V12 layout anyway. Good solution though…….now where have I seen this layout before?



Don’t worry, pictures are on the way, spoke to my PC artist last night; should be a couple of weeks. Stay tuned.

[Dreamspeed]

EddyP said:

Hi,

You don't need to be concerned about accident damage.
First off, the body does have some removable panels, obviously all appatures are remoavble and the rear bumper, so some areas are "bolt on" replacements.
As for having a larger accident, it has happened, one of our customers went from this:



to



This work was done by himself, at home (apart from the painting), we provided the necessary area of the mould that he needed:



So if this should happen to someone, it wouldn't be a problem at all.

As for maintenance of the running gear etc.. it's actually very very easy, if anything maybe even easier than in the production car, i'll give you an example with a development car we've recently been doing:

Rear bumper, wheels and wheel arch liner removed (Approx 20 mins work)



Access to cam belt area:



Empty engine bay:



Then all of the development for the Volvo T5 engine, including fitting of new engine mounts etc.. was carried out with the body on, in the space that you can see, the end result was:



This car was built exactly as you say, build it on a budget to start with, with standard parts (Honda V6), then go back to it later when funds allow to make it a little more fun (350 bhp)


As for it being understated and too main stream, come and see me, I'll take you out in it, and you can count the number of heads that turn, everywhere it goes it gets a LOT of attention.

Sorry moderators if this is taking the thread off track a bit, feel free to split it into a seperate Vortex Auto thread if you like

Ed.

Hi EddyP, thanks for the detailed reply and photos. After reading some of your comments, I’ve come to realise that you are linked to the Vortex Company in some way, and not just a fan of the car; perhaps you either work there or even own the company?

Now I feel a little with my post, but at least you know I was honest, and I did give genuine praise towards your car before I knew this.

Can I just say that I have the upmost respect for your company and the Vortex GTR, and I meant what I said; your car is unique in the field of Kitcars, giving a very well thought out and quality car at a realistic price. I did have a very good look around your car at Stoneleigh and your stand was one of the best! No question about it.

I almost feel guilty in trying to respond to your reply, after all you’re the one with the Kitcar Factory, selling cars, so you must know your market, and so I’ll try and use other people’s comments as reference.

As I’ve stated before, your Phantom GTR is a very good looking car, very pretty, and with the engine configuration, layout and engine bay access I feel your car is very much like a Ferrari Dino, it has that impression about it. Which I hope you’ll take as the high praise in the way it is intended.

So your car will obviously sell, just as the Dino is a great car, loved by millions, but I think some people are looking for a big brother, something more Testarossa.

As dom9 has said. Quote:

“I'm really looking forward to seeing pics of your car, Dreamspeed, because these are my two biggest gripes with the Vortex and we seem to think along very similar lines. To me, it is definitely the kit on the market closest to what I am looking for but it needs a longitudinal/ transaxle engine option and slightly more dramatic style to make it 'perfect'. Don't get me wrong, love it as it is, but still not quite 'enough' for me.”

I think there is a customer base for the type of car I’m proposing.

Also dom9 is correct in his further comment about the limitations of the transverse engine layout. Here’s even asking for a “bigger brother” with aggressive styling.

Thanks for the photos of the smashed Vortex; if you carried out the repairs yourself, and the end result was the black car shown, then my respect goes out to you. You’ve done a fantastic job, and you obviously have skills beyond the average kitcar builder.

Unfortunately this is my point. Most DIY mechanics can bolt on a fibre-glass panel to a steel chassis, there’s not much “artistic” skill required, but to graphed in a front side quarter, such as you did, I feel is beyond the skills of the same DIY mechanic.

There is a second reason why I prefer modular design over one-piece body shells, which I didn’t mention before, and this is for further styling changes down the line. OEM car makers have been doing face lift models for years. I think the same could be done with a well thought out kitcar. If a kitcar manufacturer designs a base model, but then comes out with the “Turbo” front bumper a few years later, existing customers can retro fit this to older models, giving them a fresh look on an older project, at an affordable price.

As for your pictures of the engine bay access; this has helped me see the car better and appreciate the construction. I agree, removing the wheels, bumper, liner and getting the car up on axle stands does give better access to the mechanical parts, in fact it’s a lot better than many OEM cars, developed at the cost of millions, on the roads today.

It’s just the car I’m proposing wouldn’t need to be jacked up at all; apart from possible wheel/suspension replacement, everything else is done from above, including handbrake adjustment, exhaust replacement, CVJ replacement, Fuel tank replacement, even clutch replacement can be done in 30 minutes, with the car on the ground. Even if you had to jack my car up, you still wouldn’t have to crawl underneath, on your back, to do any maintenance.

Accesses to all the mechanical parts are available within 5 seconds of simply lifting the body work away. In fact a friend of mine pointed out, that he could even replace the brake pads without taking the wheel off; ok a little tongue in cheek, but he was making a point.

Experience trying to replace a timing belt on a Lotus Esprit has taught me they had put little thought into maintenance when designing it. My car; you simply fold the seat forward, or even remove it, unbolt a removable panel in the bulk head, and you can now easily work on the front of the engine with very little trouble. Hey, if it’s raining and you’re trying to replace the timing belt on your driveway, close the door and work in the cockpit area of the car, staying dry!

I don’t want my comments to be in anyway negative; The Phantom GTR is a fantastic Kit-car, and its design has stood the test of time, where others have faded away.

It’s just an idea, but you have the track day car in the shape of the excellent V2; the mid-range sports car in the shape of the GTR; what you need is the “big-brother” Super-car, to complete the line-up. As a company you’d have pretty much most of the market covered. Perhaps, and this is just a casual remark, but Perhaps we may be able to work together. Your quality/ infrastructure /experience added with my project? Trust me on this, but there isn’t a car out there like it, or I would have bought it by now! Just a thought.

[Pat H]

Dreamspeed said:

Experience trying to replace a timing belt on a Lotus Esprit has taught me they had put little thought into maintenance when designing it.

You aren't kidding.

I know that the front of the motor is partly buried in the "Y" of the chassis, but I have never understood why there isn't an access panel behind the seats.

I'm afraid that I leave belt changes on the Esprit to someone younger and more flexible than me.

Ever tried replacing the radiator or one of the petrol tanks? Bloody horrible jobs, the lot of them.

One of my favourite cars at the show was the Hawk Stratos. Access to the cam belt and waterpump is an absolute breeze compared to the Esprit.

Other highlights were discovering that I comfortably fit in a Triking.

And being really impressed by the quality of finish of the Westfield S2000, which was in a different league from my old Westie. Very good turnout of Westfields outside, too.

And the drift experience was as popular as ever, and what a good demonstration of the quality and durability of their product.

Good turnout of Marlins. The little Marlin Roadster was such a lovely car.

Nice to see a few Minaris outside too. What a good kit that was.

But the highlight has to be the Exocet display. It really was a glimpse of the future.

I thought that the turnout really was pretty good, despite the economic doom and gloom. The crowds were very healthy on Sunday, the weather was great and the folk friendly and enthusiastic.

But where were Caterham Cars? Perhaps a bit short sighted not to have any official presence at the show.

Overall I found plenty to smile about.

[Dreamspeed]

Pat H said:

You aren't kidding.

I know that the front of the motor is partly buried in the "Y" of the chassis, but I have never understood why there isn't an access panel behind the seats.

I'm afraid that I leave belt changes on the Esprit to someone younger and more flexible than me.

Ever tried replacing the radiator or one of the petrol tanks? Bloody horrible jobs, the lot of them.

One of my favourite cars at the show was the Hawk Stratos. Access to the cam belt and waterpump is an absolute breeze compared to the Esprit.

Yes, I totally agree, Lotus Esprit; lovely to look at, great to drive (when working) but “Bloody Horrible jobs” to work on!

My brother has an Esprit, where the previous owner attempted to remove both tanks, due to them rotting and then leaking; but the chap gave up, and sold the pile of bits on eBay. (Brother still hasn’t finished yet BTW)

The early Esprit had in board brakes; on your F1 car, great, on your road car? Not so! It was ownership of these, and other cars, that made me design my own; learning from their mistakes and engineering them out on mine.

Yes, access on the Hawk Stratos is great compared to the Esprit. You just lift the rear clam away, and work away; you could almost be sitting on a comfy stool, drinking a coffee while doing it, and not hanging up-side-down like a bat, from your garage roof, hanging over the Esprit engine bay, trying to do the same job!

[Stuart Mills]

Pat H said:

But the highlight has to be the Exocet display. It really was a glimpse of the future.

We were delighted with the large numbers of people that turned up to watch for all six shows. The lads enjoyed doing it too. It was little tongue in cheek, I hope people realised that what we did in 3 minutes takes 3 months in your garage. We did a little preparation! Brilliant response from everyone too, hard work but well worth the effort. My sincere thanks to all volunteers and the MEV owners group.
If you missed the video here is the link;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcbXnnwOj3E&fea...

[Ferg]

Pat H said:

Mine was the completely standard HC Turbo parked next to the Elan Sprint. It was right opposite the Lotus Seven Owners' Club pitch.

I rather enjoyed the show.

This'll be you arriving then, Pat...??

[Ferg]

EddyP said:

to

In fairness though, that repair didn't go particularly well the first time. I remember the pillar join looking very grim at one time...