Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

[Pat H]

Ferg said:

Pat H said:

Mine was the completely standard HC Turbo parked next to the Elan Sprint. It was right opposite the Lotus Seven Owners' Club pitch.

I rather enjoyed the show.

This'll be you arriving then, Pat...??

That would indeed be me.

The bloke on the gate wouldn't take my £15 and waved me through, insisting that I must be driving some sort of kit car.

The same thing happened about five years ago, when I turned up in a Ferrari 328. I was complimented on how authentic it looked and was directed towards the Ferrari replica pitch...

[Ferg]

Typical.
It would have been nice to chat. As it was I was only taking pics of cars arriving to divert myself from having to chat with a bloke I spoke to in passing, but who had sort of decided on telling me his life story...

[Ferg]

KDIcarmad said:

Any one done a MG6R4 kit!

I've seen some one-off replicas, but only 2WD. I've long believed that the layout is a bit difficult to replicate with a fairly mundane/cheap donor. The driveshaft through the sump isn't an easy trick to copy either to keep the engine low...

[OwenK]

Pat H said:

That would indeed be me.

The bloke on the gate wouldn't take my £15 and waved me through, insisting that I must be driving some sort of kit car.

The same thing happened about five years ago, when I turned up in a Ferrari 328. I was complimented on how authentic it looked and was directed towards the Ferrari replica pitch...

on a related note, when leaving on the sunday I spotted a genuine Ferrari 360 (or a breathtakingly good replica) in the non-kit car park... Takes a very honest fella to not say it's a replica and save £15!

[MG CHRIS]

Looks like quantum is developing a new car by the sounds of it similar to there old coupe, saloon model here's the link

http://www.quantumkitcars.co.uk/html/the_future.ht...

Hopefully they will note the construction of the mev exocet that almost everything can be used from the donor, mk1 focus would be the obvious choice good handling car wide ranges of engine up to the 2.0 turbo and prices are low even for a tatty st170 can be picked up for around the 1k mark.

The kit car industry has been crying out for more of a kit that can be used everyday mayby this is the way forward.

[EddyP]

In response to all the other Vortex questions, I don't want to take this thread off topic anymore, so have asked a moderator to move them to another thread and when that happens i'll answer them. Please feel free to keep comments coming to us though, be them positive or negative, it's great to hear what our potential customers hear and would like to see from us.
You can "like" us on facebook to keep up to date with any latest news too, the page is very new so forgive the little content on there so far. www.facebook.com/vortexauto

Ed.

Edited by EddyP on Tuesday 8th May 21:44

[dom9]

I've just paid my first visit to the GT40s board in a long, long time.

I used to regularly stop in to see what Fran Hall was up to at RCR as I always loved his Superlite Coupe (and the 962 of course) and he always seemed very progressive with kit development and keeping up with the times/ trends.

This thread caught my eye about the new RCR car (GTA):

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-...

Fran Hall of RCR fame said:

The GTA is aimed at being an easy build , I want to try to bring some fresh customer blood to the industry....less expensive and less time consuming to build....I think we may be losing out on some of the younger crowd too.
These guys know all about the "tuner" style cars and having a 400hp plus 4 cylinder is right up their alley...
Having everyday usability is also important to me in the GTA as some guys only have the funds to run one car...

Later.. Fran Hall of RCR fame said:

I am not talking teenagers here...I am talking about the mid to late 20's guys...first big project kind of customer.

Grown up in the tuner era but want something a little sophisticated looking but within their tuning comfort zone..

A few things strike me about the new car:

1) The price seems very reasonable (US$20k + donor and some other bits)

2) They are looking at that younger/ tuner market (something we have noted on this thread)

3) They are using the central 'tub' of a porduction car (Mitsubishi Eclipse) to give production quality doors and cabin (which follows my suggestion of 'kits' becoming more like highly modified production cars a la Z Cars)

4) The build should be pretty 'easy' by the sounds of things

5) The styling looks very up-to-date and handsome, which appeals

This car pretty much fulfils all my criteria, except for that longitudinal V8/ transaxle combo. The fact that it uses production car doors and full interior is very, very interesting to me as that is the one thing I am not sure any kit has ever matched a production car for. Even the Noble M400 I looked at the other day was horrible on the inside. Stereo on the passenger side? For goodness sake Lee!

Perhaps using the centre 'tub' could be a good concept going forward to ensure 'production' car cabin quality, as long as the 'donor' could easily (it's all relative) and safely take spaceframes at either end?

Edited by dom9 on Wednesday 9th May 09:03

Edited by dom9 on Wednesday 9th May 09:11

[seansverige]

Thanks for the heads up Dom, some pics from thread:


Looks like the designers a fan of the forthcoming NSX... , but they're staying true:


Hats off to Fran for doing this, but as well as being very clever (sounds like it uses most of donors interior as well as doors - be interesting to see how influential this is), I'm guessing he has development resources that'd make most UK mfrs weep - and a potential market that justifies the investment. Unfortunately for anyone tempted on this side of the pond the donor is the Mitsi Eclipse - US model only IIRC.

[Dreamspeed]

dom9 said:

I've just paid my first visit to the GT40s board in a long, long time.

I used to regularly stop in to see what Fran Hall was up to at RCR as I always loved his Superlite Coupe (and the 962 of course) and he always seemed very progressive with kit development and keeping up with the times/ trends.

This thread caught my eye about the new RCR car (GTA):

http://www.gt40s.com/forum/rcr-forum-rcr40-slc-p4-...

Fran Hall of RCR fame said:

The GTA is aimed at being an easy build , I want to try to bring some fresh customer blood to the industry....less expensive and less time consuming to build....I think we may be losing out on some of the younger crowd too.
These guys know all about the "tuner" style cars and having a 400hp plus 4 cylinder is right up their alley...
Having everyday usability is also important to me in the GTA as some guys only have the funds to run one car...

Later.. Fran Hall of RCR fame said:

I am not talking teenagers here...I am talking about the mid to late 20's guys...first big project kind of customer.

Grown up in the tuner era but want something a little sophisticated looking but within their tuning comfort zone..

A few things strike me about the new car:

1) The price seems very reasonable (US$20k + donor and some other bits)

2) They are looking at that younger/ tuner market (something we have noted on this thread)

3) They are using the central 'tub' of a porduction car (Mitsubishi Eclipse) to give production quality doors and cabin (which follows my suggestion of 'kits' becoming more like highly modified production cars a la Z Cars)

4) The build should be pretty 'easy' by the sounds of things

5) The styling looks very up-to-date and handsome, which appeals

This car pretty much fulfils all my criteria, except for that longitudinal V8/ transaxle combo. The fact that it uses production car doors and full interior is very, very interesting to me as that is the one thing I am not sure any kit has ever matched a production car for. Even the Noble M400 I looked at the other day was horrible on the inside. Stereo on the passenger side? For goodness sake Lee!

Perhaps using the centre 'tub' could be a good concept going forward to ensure 'production' car cabin quality, as long as the 'donor' could easily (it's all relative) and safely take spaceframes at either end?

Edited by dom9 on Wednesday 9th May 09:03

Edited by dom9 on Wednesday 9th May 09:11

Thanks Dom9, great link. This is the sort of thing the UK industry needs, something that uses an easy available donor from a UK car, has a unique look and a factory feel about it.


America seems to have a vast selection of be-spoke kitcars through to replica’s to choose from, such as the following:


Attack K-1
Factory 5 GTM
Canadian All-Terrain Vehicles Corporation (Hummer Replica)
The Car Factory ETV
DDR Motorsport
Dragon Motor Cars
Duloux Motors
EM motors
Fiberfab US
Galatea Automobiles

In fact the list is so great; I’ve found this link for you. Make sure you’re comfortable and have a fresh mug of coffee, because you’ll spend hours following the link. Bit like YouTube!


http://www.kitcarlinks.com/usmakers.htm


There is so much juicy stuff on this link; you’ll be spoilt for choice. I gave serious consideration in importing one of these over, because the dollar price looks very attractive, but when you factor in the shipping costs of both the kit, and the donor (how do you get the donor? Do you fly to the states, spend a week looking for the right one); add the import duty and VAT, and deal with the left hand drive to right hand drive conversion; then it just isn’t viable.

And of course, if your kitcar is based on a non-UK car, what happens when I need a set of brake pads, or clutch or coil pack, or even a light bulb. (Anyone who’s ever owned a Japanese import will know what I mean)

It really is depressing, the Americans have all this choice; we have very little, unless you have the money for what I’ve just mentioned.

If I can’t turn my car into a reality, I’m selling up and going state side! At least a car with no roof makes sense in California!

[Dreamspeed]

seansverige said:

I'm guessing he has development resources that'd make most UK mfrs weep - and a potential market that justifies the investment.

You are absolutely right! This level of development, over in the UK, is extremely expensive. There must be a way around this problem. I just don’t have the answer yet.

[paulpsz008]

Hi Gents,
Apologies if I repeat something or break a ground rule but I haven’t read the entire thread yet.

However, I am one of these potential clients, 30ish, capable builder, bit of cash etc...

For me it needs a roof, to be watertight, 200+bhp per ton, & 25mpg. 2+2 & a boot would be nice, but not essential.
I just can’t make the 2 car equation work, driving a snotter through the week gets me down I have some great roads on my commute and want to be in my fun car all the time.

So what I want is a new GTM Libra/Ballista kit or a Ginnetta G40/50 kit.

[seansverige]

Dreamspeed said:

...a way around this problem. I just don’t have the answer yet.

Make sure you engineer a LHD version....

The US definitely bigger market but not sure it's that much more diverse: overall seems dominated by replicas, the biggest difference being that this includes hot rod related designs. Which is not to say there's no demand for original design like the FFR 818 & Superlite GTA but aside from La Bala am struggling to think of many more.

Many seem to have fallen by the wayside, but I'd say probably more Corvette based rebodies being offered as turnkeys. Not really sure what you'd classify Bailey Blade XTR as - was gonna make a crack about how shonky front air dam was looking, but to be fair, it is actually consistent with 3D model...

...doesn't make it right, though. Reminds me of the old Guigiaro / TR7 joke: after studying the side sculpting on the TR7 on its 1975 debut, he walked around and exclaimed: "Oh, no! They've done it on this side too!"

[Dreamspeed]

seansverige said:

Make sure you engineer a LHD version....

Yep, already covered that in my design. My car uses mostly Audi A6 parts (engine now mid-mounted), which is the same whichever country you buy it (Ok, very minor changes). My chassis is easily adapted to either LHD or RHD, and because it utilises the dash from the donor or pretty much any VAG car, then it’s a “no-cost option”

I’m glad you posted pictures of the Bailey Blade. It’s an interesting concept, and it shows the problem I have at the moment. The upper photo is obviously an un-finished mock-up, whereas the PC image below looks great. It’s amazing what a splash of colour makes. I only have photos of my Mock-up, which still needs some styling tweaks.

I’ve seen their website; I just wish I had that level of equipment/manpower and space! It would make things a lot better for me.

About the GTA, the artist impressions look stunning, no question; now putting aside the engineering issues for now, and just concentrating on the styling, I wonder how close the artist impressions will match the final build car; I suspect the one piece spoiler/light beam at the rear may not see its way into production. It would be great if it did, and if so, I would really like to know how they did it, and the cost of such a design piece.

Even companies like Lotus and TVR couldn’t even afford such design flare, and have to “borrow” lights from other cars.

The headlights would also be another item to be compromised I fear.

The styling on my car worries me, I think it won’t be to everyone’s taste; Some people who have seen it, love it, others not so, but then again, I have design my car to be modular, so if there’s something you don’t like, you can cut it up and change it, without having to chop into a complete one piece body shell. None of the fibre-glass panels are structural anyway.

I’m going to keep an eye on the GTA, see how it turns out.

[Ferg]

paulpsz008 said:

So what I want is a new GTM Libra

It's on it's way, but likely to be turnkey only.

paulpsz008 said:

Ballista kit

Thankfully that's not going to happen.

[Artstu]

Ferg said:

paulpsz008 said:

So what I want is a new GTM Libra

It's on it's way, but likely to be turnkey only.

Do have any more details please?

[seansverige]

Artstu said:

Ferg said:

paulpsz008 said:

So what I want is a new GTM Libra

It's on it's way, but likely to be turnkey only.

Do have any more details please?

+1. Aren't GTM part of Westfield now? Makes it more likely to come to something

[wemorgan]

seansverige said:

+1. Aren't GTM part of Westfield now? Makes it more likely to come to something

Yes I believe so, together with a few others I think - like a consortium of kit car OEMs.

Development of a new vehicle is ongoing.

[Westyman]

I hope this years revived Donington show can do something to reinvigorate the market. It was always my favourite show and has been sorely missed. Lets hope the track is open to use. I personally have owned kit cars since 1999 because of the flying laps I did around Donington in 1999 in the original Formula 27 Fireblade car. Truly memorable.

A track based event is surely a great way to bring in new customers, how about a low admission fee ( for the public & existing kitcar drivers) then say, a £10 fee for 2 flying laps in a company demonstrator ( refundable against a future kit purchase)

please dont let the H&S brigade say this is frought with too many risks to be viable.

[Iwantoneofthose]

Westyman said:

I hope this years revived Donington show can do something to reinvigorate the market. It was always my favourite show and has been sorely missed.

Did I read somewhere that if you buy this book (see link) you get a ticket to Donny thrown in 4 free?
http://www.completekitcar.co.uk/ukguidetotrackda.h...

[seansverige]

Dreamspeed said:

The upper photo is obviously an un-finished mock-up, whereas the PC image below looks great.

Even companies like Lotus and TVR couldn’t even afford such design flare, and have to “borrow” lights from other cars.

The headlights would also be another item to be compromised I fear

Erm, the rendered image is definitely shinier, I'll give you that - but my reference to the Guigiaro joke was they can't use the excuse of deviating from the 3D model as an excuse because it is faithful to it...

Even sticking with that theme the front air dam needs a lot of tidying, especially the surfacing. I don't know what the final engineering solution is, but I hope it's more sophisticated than the buck: an MX5 with massive spacers. It's been dragging on for some time now but they must have been doing something right as it's picked up decent amount of coverage; even got a feature in Sunday Times motoring section couple of years back (& they probably wouldn't acknowledge even a successful kitcar mfr on pain of death).

TVR were past masters at using existing light units, but most recent Lotii have had bespoke lights - I'm pretty sure even the bullseye unit on the Elise & Evora is (which might be why they're so damn expensive). At the front it's now easier than ever to produce a bespoke look as lighting elements are available individually: you can either pepper the front fascia with them, à la late era TVR, or group them together in a feature, possibly under perspex cover. Latter doesn't tend to work so well at back so bit more of a challenge but not insoluble. GTRClive's build thread might be worth checking out for both - IIRC he's using some LED strips for taillights but I don't know if they're IVA compliant (he's in Canada).

As regards the GTA, the donor means it simply can't quite be the low slung middie as sketched, but from the clay buck shown above, and the one below, show it's not too far off.

Agree on the taillights, and the lower front quarters need tidying but overall shaping up pretty nicely.