eco cars

[stig mills]

I am working on an an electric powered R2 at the moment. The wind tunnel tests at Mira showed us that it only takes 27kw to propel it to 100mph. The motor I'm using is a poly phase AC unit that has been specially developed for the task. It has huge amounts of low RPM torque so acceleration will be brisk. It operates at 50rpm per volt and is almost 100% efficient at 5000rpm. Peak HP not tested yet but I'm going to check out the torque on a dyno soon. The characteristics of the motor allow it to drive direct to the diff so no losses via a tranny. I am using Lithium polymer battery chemistry due to there light weight. The whole car inc 144v 90amp hour cells is 560kgs and so we are hoping for excellent performance. It wont be a locost though as the motor was nearly 4k and the cells nearly 20k but if anyones interested they are welcome to emial me on [e-mail] and I will keep them posted on further developments. Not expecting to sell them but I do enjoy a challenge. Stuart

[hoopdiddy07]

stig mills said:

I am working on an an electric powered R2 at the moment. The wind tunnel tests at Mira showed us that it only takes 27kw to propel it to 100mph. The motor I'm using is a poly phase AC unit that has been specially developed for the task. It has huge amounts of low RPM torque so acceleration will be brisk. It operates at 50rpm per volt and is almost 100% efficient at 5000rpm. Peak HP not tested yet but I'm going to check out the torque on a dyno soon. The characteristics of the motor allow it to drive direct to the diff so no losses via a tranny. I am using Lithium polymer battery chemistry due to there light weight. The whole car inc 144v 90amp hour cells is 560kgs and so we are hoping for excellent performance. It wont be a locost though as the motor was nearly 4k and the cells nearly 20k but if anyones interested they are welcome to emial me on [e-mail] and I will keep them posted on further developments. Not expecting to sell them but I do enjoy a challenge. Stuart

What performance and range are you expecting Stuart?

[hoopdiddy07]

fuoriserie said:

hoopdiddy07 said:

fuoriserie said:

Sam_68 said:

Yes, for a 1.4 petrol engine, it's good.

But (at risk of being tarred and feathered by the PistonHeads rednecks

Sadly, I doubt that many people on here would care...

Edited by Sam_68 on Wednesday 9th January 22:48

I actually think it to be a very interesting niche, a modern lightweight Turbodiesel, with E85, on a streamlined modern update of the lotus Eleven could be a nice project to work on.

You could still keep the fun and still run around on track days, without worrying about your cash being drained by the rise of fuel.

I'ts almost a given that fuel prices in the future are going to go up, more than down, so a kitcar that can still be fun and stylish, without it being thirsty would be a nice proposition to work on.......

Preferred kitcar chassis to work on ?

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:21

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 10th January 08:22

Nothing niche about eco cars. The problem is that nobody currently offers a green vehicle that takes advatage of government incentives, is cheap to buy and more importantly, does'nt look like noddy's car. The market is waiting and vast. I admire your passion for design fuoriserie what do you do for a living?

On the subject of your quick sketches; I realise that you have key styling values that you feel necessary to incorporate on your designs but I feel that in this instance, you need to start with a clean sheet. Think about minimising frontal area and drag in plan. Does it need four wheels? How many people are likley to be in it 90% of the time. Unless you cleverley better what exists already then your ideas are nothing more than styling sketches. .

I didn't answer this part.......

When I was younger ( many moons ago...) I worked as a car and product designer......, now that I'm old and wiser., I work in marketing, it pays the bills and gets me to work part-time on car design project without having the pressure to bring home the bacon every month!!!

We could come with a very creative design brief for this project, but do you have an investor with a load full of cash ?, we're talking about a few million pounds to come up with a radical, creative and innovative design ?

In the last few years i've been part of a few interesting design projects on a consulting basis,in Italy and the UK,( sportscar designs), but most failed when the cost of manufacturing was factored in the development, and most of the time the numbers didn't add up.....

Sportscar or kitcar manufacturing is very difficult in this very competitive car world, and most of the time it's a losing battle...

I just have fun, with a few rough sketches on paper.....and from time to time I get to work on a few fun cardesign projects, but I don't have to risk a business or livelihood on them.

I admire and respect the people that work in the kitcar industry, because they work in a very tough environment, and sometimes they are up against prejudice and derision..

Cheers
Italo



Who did you design for back in the day. I'll come clean: my company is developing an environmentally sensitive vehicle and your take on this would be interestintg to see. It's a live project and I am a vehicle designer myself so have already produced computer models etc. Your hobby of quickly sketching rough ideas is a way of compairng my efforts. The fact that you do it for free on these pages is of additional benefit.

Don't worry about the cash. I've been doing this a long time and am well aware of how much it costs and how to do it cheaply. I'll have to differ with you about the respect you have for most producers of kit cars. IMHO most of them haven't been to university to study their subject, they didn't spend three years before that developing their skills in 3D and 2D art and design and they definatley haven't spent ten years making a living as a car designer.

I don't doubt the skill, balls and ambition of designers of kit cars, in fact I too have a great deal of respect for them. In fact, I don't even want to get into a conversation about all of that, I just would like to see how you would deal with the following brief.

Single seat, minimal frontal area. Ultra lighweight, electric, fun and very sexy commuter vehicle using relativley inexpensive technology and compensating for this with clever design that achieves the above to an extent that it is still top of class. Must be so sexy and unique that it results in a media storm and thus, self premotes itself. Your marketing background will be of considerable benifit here.

[stig mills]

Experimenting with 2 types of Li, with phosphate and polymer, consumption is in the 200w/h bracket at cruise and max motor rpm at full volts produces 70 mph. Its early days yet but the battery manufacturers are keen to the extent that I have not been asked for pennies yet so they must feel its got potential. BMS experts are essential for Li and I am guided here by the cell manufacturers. Controller wise we have introduced current limitation to protect its self and to save hammering the cells. Pick up at 250amps is fantastic but seriously reduces the range. Of course with an AC drive its easy to extract power under over-run and braking so regen is programmed in.
The Zonta by the way is intended to be a modern take on the 7 theme with an economical twist. Your comments were a little harsh but no offence taken. Please be careful though as you may offend Zonta owners. Give me a ring or keep a check on the "Battery Vehicle Society" forum to check progress 01623 655522
Regards Stuart

[fuoriserie]

[quote=hoopdiddy07


I don't doubt the skill, balls and ambition of designers of kit cars, in fact I too have a great deal of respect for them. In fact, I don't even want to get into a conversation about all of that, I just would like to see how you would deal with the following brief.

Single seat, minimal frontal area. Ultra lighweight, electric, fun and very sexy commuter vehicle using relativley inexpensive technology and compensating for this with clever design that achieves the above to an extent that it is still top of class. Must be so sexy and unique that it results in a media storm and thus, self premotes itself. Your marketing background will be of considerable benifit here.
[/quote]


A very nice design brief......and a tall order to achieve with those set parameters....

Must it be a 4 wheeler or 3 wheeler ? what type of manufacturing technology are you considering? are you considering vacum forming for the body or a more low tech manufacturing process?

Project cost and numbers produced? price?
What would you consider inexpensive technology ? electric motor ? batteries and/or controler systems?

I like the challenge........and don't mind showing a few sketches on PH for fun and free,...... but I still do it on a part-time consulting basis for cash.....

Will see what I can come up with.....
Cheers
Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 17th January 08:56

[hoopdiddy07]

fuoriserie said:

[quote=hoopdiddy07


I don't doubt the skill, balls and ambition of designers of kit cars, in fact I too have a great deal of respect for them. In fact, I don't even want to get into a conversation about all of that, I just would like to see how you would deal with the following brief.

Single seat, minimal frontal area. Ultra lighweight, electric, fun and very sexy commuter vehicle using relativley inexpensive technology and compensating for this with clever design that achieves the above to an extent that it is still top of class. Must be so sexy and unique that it results in a media storm and thus, self premotes itself. Your marketing background will be of considerable benifit here.

A very nice design brief......and a tall order to achieve with those set parameters....

Must it be a 4 wheeler or 3 wheeler ? what type of manufacturing technology are you considering? are you considering vacum forming for the body or a more low tech manufacturing process?

Project cost and numbers produced? price?
What would you consider inexpensive technology ? electric motor ? batteries and/or controler systems?

I like the challenge........and don't mind showing a few sketches on PH for fun and free,...... but I still do it on a part-time consulting basis for cash.....

Will see what I can come up with.....
Cheers
Italo


The retail price for the car needs to be no more than 12K. Assume that around 4K is to be spent on the pre-preg glass composite monocoque tub. I personaaly think that two wheels at the front with one behind is the most simple, lightweight option. It also offers greater scope to keep drag low. Another major cost saver is to eliminate the glasshouse. I have some ideas on how to do this whilst still offering weather protection. Intended market is the young commuting buisness man who is style concious but sick and tired of being sweated on in the commute into London or where ever. Range needs to be around 55 miles and top speed 55mph.

I look forward to seeing your thoughts!

[hoopdiddy07]

stig mills said:

Experimenting with 2 types of Li, with phosphate and polymer, consumption is in the 200w/h bracket at cruise and max motor rpm at full volts produces 70 mph. Its early days yet but the battery manufacturers are keen to the extent that I have not been asked for pennies yet so they must feel its got potential. BMS experts are essential for Li and I am guided here by the cell manufacturers. Controller wise we have introduced current limitation to protect its self and to save hammering the cells. Pick up at 250amps is fantastic but seriously reduces the range. Of course with an AC drive its easy to extract power under over-run and braking so regen is programmed in.
The Zonta by the way is intended to be a modern take on the 7 theme with an economical twist. Your comments were a little harsh but no offence taken. Please be careful though as you may offend Zonta owners. Give me a ring or keep a check on the "Battery Vehicle Society" forum to check progress 01623 655522
Regards Stuart

Appologies for the harsh comments, I'ts an honest opinion though that I am pretty well qualified to give. Having been on your website I can commend you on your seven style car. It has a great stance. You obviously know your stuff, how much additional range could you gain by reducing weight to 250kgs with your current technology?

In fact, I'll give you a call over the next couple of weeks when I'm next on buisness in your area. You can bop me on the nose for my comments and maybe there are buisness opportunities we can discuss.

Edited by hoopdiddy07 on Thursday 17th January 20:28

[fuoriserie]

hoopdiddy07 said:

fuoriserie said:

[quote=hoopdiddy07


I don't doubt the skill, balls and ambition of designers of kit cars, in fact I too have a great deal of respect for them. In fact, I don't even want to get into a conversation about all of that, I just would like to see how you would deal with the following brief.

Single seat, minimal frontal area. Ultra lighweight, electric, fun and very sexy commuter vehicle using relativley inexpensive technology and compensating for this with clever design that achieves the above to an extent that it is still top of class. Must be so sexy and unique that it results in a media storm and thus, self premotes itself. Your marketing background will be of considerable benifit here.

A very nice design brief......and a tall order to achieve with those set parameters....

Must it be a 4 wheeler or 3 wheeler ? what type of manufacturing technology are you considering? are you considering vacum forming for the body or a more low tech manufacturing process?

Project cost and numbers produced? price?
What would you consider inexpensive technology ? electric motor ? batteries and/or controler systems?

I like the challenge........and don't mind showing a few sketches on PH for fun and free,...... but I still do it on a part-time consulting basis for cash.....

Will see what I can come up with.....
Cheers
Italo


The retail price for the car needs to be no more than 12K. Assume that around 4K is to be spent on the pre-preg glass composite monocoque tub. I personaaly think that two wheels at the front with one behind is the most simple, lightweight option. It also offers greater scope to keep drag low. Another major cost saver is to eliminate the glasshouse. I have some ideas on how to do this whilst still offering weather protection. Intended market is the young commuting buisness man who is style concious but sick and tired of being sweated on in the commute into London or where ever. Range needs to be around 55 miles and top speed 55mph.

I look forward to seeing your thoughts!

lightweight 3wheeler, single seater.have you thought about hybrid powerplant instead of pure electric?

Petrol/electric engines or Petrol/hydrogen ?, piaggio has developed for its scooters these type of engine options, and the MP3 basculating 3wheeler ( my prefered choice for my design sketches...), will be offered in 2009 with these options.

check this website for info :
http://www.engines.piaggio.com/_vti_g2_nwArt.asp?r...

Will work a few roughs over the weekend....

Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Friday 18th January 11:13

[hoopdiddy07]

A pure electric vehicle is much cheaper to develop (assuming low tech) and allows the use of hub motors. This offers greater scope for optimising drag. It is my personal belief that electric vehicles will ultimately dominate the market as the technology becomes even more efficient and inexpensive. Hybrids are a bit of a compromise imho, they are overcomplicated and a stop gap to ensure an economic meltdown doesn't occur through the overnight demise of fossil fuels. This is why the brief states low drag and ultra lightweight. The opportunity is to developed a very focused low tech ev, that excels in terms of range and performance because of what it hasn't got.

That said, I wasn't aware of the link and will give it some thought. Thanks for that.

Edited by hoopdiddy07 on Friday 18th January 20:04

[stig mills]

You can see from my previous replies that I am quite happy to share details of what I am developing. One reason is possibly to help others with similar ideas and thus encourage the use of EV's. Perhaps others could share their own ideas? I have been toying with the idea of building a 3 wheeler city ev for some time. I would liken my idea to a modern BMW Isetta. Aero dyamically speaking a more streamlined design would have one wheel at the front and 2 at the rear. Then you would need a diff though thus adding weight. A hub motor could drive the single front wheel but I have been quoted £2500 by PML flightlink plus £1700 for a controller. I used a wheel motor on the back of my scooter conversion but thats only 1500watts (2HP)although they are only £600. I also blew a couple of IGBT's at £110 each but now use 20p fet's in series to control it.
Two wheel motors on the rear is an option but more expensive than a single larger motor.
I would prefer the cheaper and more stable option of 2 wheels up front and a motor driving the single rear via a reduction box. 250kgs was mentioned above but thats not realistic as the Li-Ion pack will be over 150kgs. I believe 2 seats would ensure it doesnt look like a disabled vehicle. I was experimenting with 50mm alloy tube producing long curves over the top running front to back. I would love to see any ideas you may have Italo. Regards Stuart

[fuoriserie]

hoopdiddy07 said:

A Hybrids are a bit of a compromise imho, they are overcomplicated and a stop gap to ensure an economic meltdown doesn't occur through the overnight demise of fossil fuels. This is why the brief states low drag and ultra lightweight. The opportunity is to developed a very focused low tech ev, that excels in terms of range and performance because of what it hasn't got.

Edited by hoopdiddy07 on Friday 18th January 20:04

I agree with you hybrids are a stop gap solution, but I'm not sure the potential client is still ready to give up the freedom of having a vehicle that gives a better range, and the hassle of a last minute plug-in recharge....

If it's hybrid you could use both fuels, and if one runs out the other can still take you back home.
We shouldn't under estimate the value of the potential of two different energy sources supplying motive power to the vehicle..

Woking on the the sketches......

[fuoriserie]

stig mills said:

You can see from my previous replies that I am quite happy to share details of what I am developing. One reason is possibly to help others with similar ideas and thus encourage the use of EV's. Perhaps others could share their own ideas? I have been toying with the idea of building a 3 wheeler city ev for some time. I would liken my idea to a modern BMW Isetta. I would love to see any ideas you may have Italo. Regards Stuart

Stuart,
I like the concept.......will see what i can do....

[FlossyThePig]

fuoriserie said:

stig mills said:

You can see from my previous replies that I am quite happy to share details of what I am developing. One reason is possibly to help others with similar ideas and thus encourage the use of EV's. Perhaps others could share their own ideas? I have been toying with the idea of building a 3 wheeler city ev for some time. I would liken my idea to a modern BMW Isetta. I would love to see any ideas you may have Italo. Regards Stuart

Stuart,
I like the concept.......will see what i can do....

Have you had a look at some of the teams taking part in the automotive X-prize?

Intrigued by the Aptera and "alé", both three wheelers.

[hoopdiddy07]

stig mills said:

You can see from my previous replies that I am quite happy to share details of what I am developing. One reason is possibly to help others with similar ideas and thus encourage the use of EV's. Perhaps others could share their own ideas? I have been toying with the idea of building a 3 wheeler city ev for some time. I would liken my idea to a modern BMW Isetta. Aero dyamically speaking a more streamlined design would have one wheel at the front and 2 at the rear. Then you would need a diff though thus adding weight. A hub motor could drive the single front wheel but I have been quoted £2500 by PML flightlink plus £1700 for a controller. I used a wheel motor on the back of my scooter conversion but thats only 1500watts (2HP)although they are only £600. I also blew a couple of IGBT's at £110 each but now use 20p fet's in series to control it.
Two wheel motors on the rear is an option but more expensive than a single larger motor.
I would prefer the cheaper and more stable option of 2 wheels up front and a motor driving the single rear via a reduction box. 250kgs was mentioned above but thats not realistic as the Li-Ion pack will be over 150kgs. I believe 2 seats would ensure it doesnt look like a disabled vehicle. I was experimenting with 50mm alloy tube producing long curves over the top running front to back. I would love to see any ideas you may have Italo. Regards Stuart

I still think the target weight is valid. A composite body incorporating composite springs and uprights with moulded in seat etc would add less than 100kgs. I also disagree that single seaters look like disabled vehicles, this is where the skill of the stylist comes in. Lewis Hamilton didn't look like he was driving a disabled vehicle last season to me.

[stig mills]

Thanx for that, couldnt find "ale" though. Regards Stuart

FlossyThePig said:

fuoriserie said:

stig mills said:

You can see from my previous replies that I am quite happy to share details of what I am developing. One reason is possibly to help others with similar ideas and thus encourage the use of EV's. Perhaps others could share their own ideas? I have been toying with the idea of building a 3 wheeler city ev for some time. I would liken my idea to a modern BMW Isetta. I would love to see any ideas you may have Italo. Regards Stuart

Stuart,
I like the concept.......will see what i can do....

Have you had a look at some of the teams taking part in the automotive X-prize?

Intrigued by the Aptera and "alé", both three wheelers.

[stig mills]

[/quote]

I still think the target weight is valid. A composite body incorporating composite springs and uprights with moulded in seat etc would add less than 100kgs. I also disagree that single seaters look like disabled vehicles, this is where the skill of the stylist comes in. Lewis Hamilton didn't look like he was driving a disabled vehicle last season to me.
[/quote]

Lewis wasnt driving a 3 wheeler though!

[stig mills]

quote;
It's a live project and I am a vehicle designer myself so have already produced computer models etc. Your hobby of quickly sketching rough ideas is a way of compairng my efforts. The fact that you do it for free on these pages is of additional benefit.

Don't worry about the cash. I've been doing this a long time and am well aware of how much it costs and how to do it cheaply. I'll have to differ with you about the respect you have for most producers of kit cars. IMHO most of them haven't been to university to study their subject, they didn't spend three years before that developing their skills in 3D and 2D art and design and they definatley haven't spent ten years making a living as a car designer. end quote.

Could I encourage you to show some of your past work or idea sketches here?
Not your best ofcourse as they maybe used without consent. Italo works very hard to keep us entertained and I feel we are all in his debt. It would be very interesting however to see a sample of your work as you mentioned kit car firms should cough up a couple of grand for a week to a pro to design a car.
Sounds great value if a car can indeed be designed in a week. But it may help convince those reading to tell us what they would get in return for the cash. Bearing in mind some would need to sell a few extra cars to find the spare money. It would be very interesting to see what a proffesional like yourself could bring to the table. Assuming you are not available for commisions then you could let us know what to expect and perhaps recommend a another.
Your efforts would be greatly appreciated and your sketches most welcome.
I design by construction using various materials otherwise I would be sketching now instead of typing when I should be in bed. Regards Stuart

[hoopdiddy07]

stig mills said:

I still think the target weight is valid. A composite body incorporating composite springs and uprights with moulded in seat etc would add less than 100kgs. I also disagree that single seaters look like disabled vehicles, this is where the skill of the stylist comes in. Lewis Hamilton didn't look like he was driving a disabled vehicle last season to me.

Lewis wasnt driving a 3 wheeler though!

Hows about disguieing how many wheels it's got. You said quote:

I believe 2 seats would ensure it doesnt look like a disabled vehicle.

No mention of how many wheels it has. Also, a single wheel at the front would increase drag. Since when have teardrops been wider at the back than the front?

[hoopdiddy07]

stig mills said:

quote;
It's a live project and I am a vehicle designer myself so have already produced computer models etc. Your hobby of quickly sketching rough ideas is a way of compairng my efforts. The fact that you do it for free on these pages is of additional benefit.

Don't worry about the cash. I've been doing this a long time and am well aware of how much it costs and how to do it cheaply. I'll have to differ with you about the respect you have for most producers of kit cars. IMHO most of them haven't been to university to study their subject, they didn't spend three years before that developing their skills in 3D and 2D art and design and they definatley haven't spent ten years making a living as a car designer. end quote.

Could I encourage you to show some of your past work or idea sketches here?
Not your best ofcourse as they maybe used without consent. Italo works very hard to keep us entertained and I feel we are all in his debt. It would be very interesting however to see a sample of your work as you mentioned kit car firms should cough up a couple of grand for a week to a pro to design a car.
Sounds great value if a car can indeed be designed in a week. But it may help convince those reading to tell us what they would get in return for the cash. Bearing in mind some would need to sell a few extra cars to find the spare money. It would be very interesting to see what a proffesional like yourself could bring to the table. Assuming you are not available for commisions then you could let us know what to expect and perhaps recommend a another.
Your efforts would be greatly appreciated and your sketches most welcome.
I design by construction using various materials otherwise I would be sketching now instead of typing when I should be in bed. Regards Stuart

TVR SAGARIS Cheif Designer
TVR Typhon Pricipal Designer
TVR Tuscan Convertible Cheif Designer

Have a look on google images

[hoopdiddy07]

I get the imprssion that you are on the defensive here. It kind of proves my point that your average Kit Car manufacturer considers himself a design guru but lacks the seven years of study and ten years of experience to back it up. This generally results in a very capable person building and selling a limited number of kits to a very small market. Like I said, I admire what your good at, but still don't understand your why you don't buy in services that fill in the areas that your not so good at. IMHO this is why the kit car industry has remaind as niche as it has. I don't want an argument, I am simply stating the observations I've made over a long period of time.

The two grand I mentioned would buy you consultancy. A bit of guidance during your development process. Depending on location, probably five visits and an abundance of sketches and suggestions to assist you. A turn key production ready mould bought from me would be more like 200K depending on complexity. To be honest though, you would struggle to buy my time as I have bigger fishes to fry. You would probably be best having a Coventry University design student on placement. Choose carefully though, they let anyone onto the course nowadays and anyone not given a placement at one of the major OEM's is probably not worth the investment.