Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales
Discussion
Dreamspeed said:
Maybe a company that already has a Cobra in its line up could take it up, but I think a quality, triangulated chassis is needed, and not some of these poor ladder frame cobras, as Steffan has pointed out, the end result could be worse than the original.
I would suggest that an Elan style sheet steel backbone would be easier to make. Possibly a composite backbone would be worth looking at. It may be easier to autoclave a backbone than a central tub simply because it is a much smaller piece. It may also be possible to stack several in at once to cut the high costs of the process down. With bonded in inserts for fixings it could come out of the oven ready to fit under a car.Oh, don't be taken in by spaceframe hype. Nobody puts channel section Austin 7 ladder chassis under kit cars any more and lots of people don't add enough triangulation to spaceframes.
KDIcarmad said:
Dreamspeed said:
KDIcarmad: I’ve discussed the Murtaya poor sales before, with people in my very large circle of car fans, and the underlying problem seems to be why bother with a kit-car, when the Subaru has such a good following of its own? I seem to get the same answer every time, and I have to agree. Most people would rather spend the money on tuning an existing Subaru than build a kit car, also the styling of the Murtaya is not radical enough; the trade-off for a factory finished Subaru, for a hand built kitcar isn’t justified I’m afraid.
It needs to be more radical and/or not Subaru based. I know someone who owns a P1 Subaru and loves the Murtaya. Mostly for the styling and its use of the Subaru parts. I still believe you could see this as a modern TVR.
If I put TVR back in production I would use a Jaguar (Ford) donor. Keeping it British. Almost as many old jag's many as BMW.
The styling could pass for a production car, the engine is tuneable and the driveline it comes with very capable. The idea and the end product are very good.
If I worked at Subaru I'd look at the Murtaya and the Prodrive P1 and wonder "why not?"
Ferg said:
I take all of your points on-board, but I'd suggest that given a bit of time I could easily select cars which blur the line you are making between acceptable and non-acceptable fakes. It can NEVER be black and white and as long as you say that some things are OK because finding a closer match would be difficult etc etc then you will never make a hard and fast distinction.
The Ford vs. Chevy engine thing? Are you suggesting Ford V8s are unavailable? Or just the CORRECT Ford V8? Or is it that they are too much money? Isn't that the case? People are quite happy to bang on about making their car a 'replica' but not if it goes outside budget!
And what is an 'acceptable' 355 replica? Should we draw up a list of things it must have? There's a guy on here somewhere had an MR2 with a V6. Suppose he built a Dino kit with it? More or less acceptable?
I don't expect answers to these questions, of course, just pointing out the difficulty in drawing a line. I still maintain that there's no difference between building a Chevy-engined, cruciform chassis, 5 speed Cobra as building an MR2 based 355...both fake, both great fun, one seems to be the subject of possibly snob-based derision..
I quite agree; the difference between a replica and a fake isn’t black or white; it is debateable at many different levels. It is a sliding scale and peoples taste’s and views differ, just like in the art world, but I think in essence the general and simplistic rule of thumb is; if a said part on any car is just there for show and has no intrinsic mechanical merit, such as plastic Brembo brake covers, hiding small Peugeot brakes, then that part is clearly fake; the more parts there are like this on the vehicle, the further away it moves from the original, and the more people’s opinions change for the worse, labelling the entire car a fake, leading to ridicule.The Ford vs. Chevy engine thing? Are you suggesting Ford V8s are unavailable? Or just the CORRECT Ford V8? Or is it that they are too much money? Isn't that the case? People are quite happy to bang on about making their car a 'replica' but not if it goes outside budget!
And what is an 'acceptable' 355 replica? Should we draw up a list of things it must have? There's a guy on here somewhere had an MR2 with a V6. Suppose he built a Dino kit with it? More or less acceptable?
I don't expect answers to these questions, of course, just pointing out the difficulty in drawing a line. I still maintain that there's no difference between building a Chevy-engined, cruciform chassis, 5 speed Cobra as building an MR2 based 355...both fake, both great fun, one seems to be the subject of possibly snob-based derision..
The reason I would like to suggest some basic understanding between a Fake and a Replica, is to try and address the OP’s original comment on the “kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales”. I would argue that pretty much everyone on this forum is well versed in the kitcar world and understands it’s complexity, however we are in a very small minority and need to consider what the general public think of the kitcar world, after all if this industry needs to grow, then it’s the general public we shall get new interest from.
The issues is this; when the general public are asked “what is a kitcar” do they respond negatively, suggesting kitcars are nothing more than badly put together bits of scaffolding, with no weather protection, or some hacked up MR2 covered in fake plastic Ferrari parts?
If this is the case then the future looks bleak and we need to address the core problem of people’s attitudes towards kitcars. In other words, should the kitcar community stand up and say “enough of the track day cars and we don’t want any more re-body hacked up Japanese cars thank you”?
Do people focus too much on the Ferrari Fakes and dismiss a whole load of quality Replica’s and Kitcars? Do Ferrari fakes actually hurt the Kitcar industry? I’m opening this up for debate.
To try and answer your question about Ford V8 vs. Chevy V8 Ferg; This again is personnel taste, the purist would try and replicate the original 410bhp Ford 427 cu in OHV V8, while others may say that technology has moved on since 1966 and a GM LS7 with 505bhp is close to the original, but is more reliable, powerful and cost effective.
I would argue that the person using the GM LS7, is closer to the original as opposed to someone using say a 4-pot 1.8 turbo, from a family hatch back.
I wouldn’t put it down to snobbery, more of substance. Fake stick on plastic bits are superficial, where as true engineering and mechanical merit gives substance and depth to the car.
Good discussion by the way.
cymtriks said:
I would suggest that an Elan style sheet steel backbone would be easier to make. Possibly a composite backbone would be worth looking at. It may be easier to autoclave a backbone than a central tub simply because it is a much smaller piece. It may also be possible to stack several in at once to cut the high costs of the process down. With bonded in inserts for fixings it could come out of the oven ready to fit under a car.
Oh, don't be taken in by spaceframe hype. Nobody puts channel section Austin 7 ladder chassis under kit cars any more and lots of people don't add enough triangulation to spaceframes.
I understand where you’re coming from; your suggestion could be a possible way forward. The cost could be cheaper, but I think you may be limited on the power with such a chassis construction.Oh, don't be taken in by spaceframe hype. Nobody puts channel section Austin 7 ladder chassis under kit cars any more and lots of people don't add enough triangulation to spaceframes.
I just suggested the triangulated chassis, as this was how every TVR was constructed, and it’s relatively cheap and easy to construct. But I would like to add, if I had the budget, I would love to engineer a “retro-S3” with an extruded aluminium chassis and Carbon fibre bodywork, all calculated by the latest auto-cad software; I know, just dreaming.
As someone who is nailing their third fake plastic s
t box (FPSB) together the appeal of a kit car is almost 100% imbued in its shape.
I love the Cobra, not because of its Ferrari beating history, not because of its american muscle, not because a real one is worth millions, I love it because of the way it looks, in particular its "hips".
I know it sounds a bit perverse, but the whole car just looks " right".
Its the perfect shape for a sportscar.
Then you can add in all the stuff that turns money into sound which is what all us boys love and it becomes the stuff of dreams.
True some guys get a bit "precious" about the iconic nature of the car, and others like myself go beyond the envelope of conformity ( EFI, Jap and European engines, 35 MPG for Gods sake) but the first thing that must bring owners to the car in the first place is the shape.
Get the shape right and people will buy.
Now getting the next right shape is the $60,000 question.
Cheers,
Tony
t box (FPSB) together the appeal of a kit car is almost 100% imbued in its shape. I love the Cobra, not because of its Ferrari beating history, not because of its american muscle, not because a real one is worth millions, I love it because of the way it looks, in particular its "hips".
I know it sounds a bit perverse, but the whole car just looks " right".
Its the perfect shape for a sportscar.
Then you can add in all the stuff that turns money into sound which is what all us boys love and it becomes the stuff of dreams.
True some guys get a bit "precious" about the iconic nature of the car, and others like myself go beyond the envelope of conformity ( EFI, Jap and European engines, 35 MPG for Gods sake) but the first thing that must bring owners to the car in the first place is the shape.
Get the shape right and people will buy.
Now getting the next right shape is the $60,000 question.
Cheers,
Tony
Having spent 9 months observing my dad build a westfield, I would add that a real issue is quality of finish (simply most look cack! Panel gaps, old donor car wheels etc etc)
Quite simply if you can't be bothered (or aren't skilled enough) it will probably look like it was built by Stevie Wonder. The amount of time he had taken to shape, finish and perfect the little bits of the build is mind boggling. Now his will without doubt be one of the best Westies out there, however if this level of work had to go into a Westie build, I can't bare to imagine what must go into some of the smaller manufacturer kits.
On top of that, he has been waiting 8 weeks for an iva test, they took his £450 weeks ago, yet nothing has come through yet...
Quite simply if you can't be bothered (or aren't skilled enough) it will probably look like it was built by Stevie Wonder. The amount of time he had taken to shape, finish and perfect the little bits of the build is mind boggling. Now his will without doubt be one of the best Westies out there, however if this level of work had to go into a Westie build, I can't bare to imagine what must go into some of the smaller manufacturer kits.
On top of that, he has been waiting 8 weeks for an iva test, they took his £450 weeks ago, yet nothing has come through yet...
I do not like the Cobras and fail to see why this is said to be the most copied car in world. Will more replicas revive interest and sales?
As to how people see kit cars watch how the Top Gear TV program treats them.
The "I'll get a hammer" or "build by two blokes in a shed" lines. This is how many see kit cars. Changing this needs a lot of work, a few kit cars are outstanding, the Ultima can better most supercars on the Top Gear track. We all know that, most people don't. An Ultima needs to prove this on the show, so I ask you all to sent this question to the Top Gear TV program
"Is the Ultima too fast for you, too fast for the stig! It is a road car not race car, one of Britain fastest! Scared to embarrassed all those so called production supercars with one build in a shed?"
I certain if they get a hundred e-mail like this they let the car round the track.
As to how people see kit cars watch how the Top Gear TV program treats them.
The "I'll get a hammer" or "build by two blokes in a shed" lines. This is how many see kit cars. Changing this needs a lot of work, a few kit cars are outstanding, the Ultima can better most supercars on the Top Gear track. We all know that, most people don't. An Ultima needs to prove this on the show, so I ask you all to sent this question to the Top Gear TV program
"Is the Ultima too fast for you, too fast for the stig! It is a road car not race car, one of Britain fastest! Scared to embarrassed all those so called production supercars with one build in a shed?"
I certain if they get a hundred e-mail like this they let the car round the track.
1point7bar said:
If there were any damp patches, you would have to be a superman at throttle control to not get bitten by a big hp Ultima.
I am not convinced of the reality of a mass market for such a focused machine.
At last a little sense not every one wants or certainly afford to spend 40k plus on a week end toy ,another point is that at the buget end of the market people actualy enjoy building their own car ,like my ownit,s their car they enjoy it so what has it got to do with anyone else.As long as it is safe and driven with sense why knockit . waiting for incoming !!!!I am not convinced of the reality of a mass market for such a focused machine.
Yes, it’s true just about every sports car is pretty much “sold” on looks alone, if it looks great on a poster, people will want one.
But for me, and this is a personnel opinion, I want more from a car. The looks just get my interest, so I feel I must give it a second look. I’m glad Tony427 brought up the sound of the car; you are so right. Most performance engines have a nice sound to them, but others just have this “x-factor” about them, which every Piston Header will know only too well what I’m referring to.
A real Lamborghini Engine his this, but an MR2 doesn’t, sorry.
Chr1sch also makes a valid point; Quality of finish: Again, if the car looks great on the outside, with its flashy paint job, but looks like a cut and shut when you look behind the panels, then the quality is lost, people will be put off and unfortunately label all kitcars the same.
What we need is more Kitcars that have substance, something people can look deeper than the colour of the paint, open the bonnet and continue to see quality work and engineering. In the car world, there are thousands of truly great engineered cars, which can be appreciated just as much with the bonnet up as its looks when on a poster.
Yes, I think we all know what damage has been done by TopGear to the kitcar world, and yes I think we need to get the likes of Ultima and Gardner Douglas on this program, to put things right. Maybe, if the producers of TopGear have now turned the program into a superficial, poor comedy program similar to big brother and the like, then perhaps we should be looking to contact 5th Gear, see if they could run a story and show kitcars in a more positive light?
I think the kitcar world needs to move away from body kit fakes, and track day cars with zero practicality, and try and create some new fresh designs, which are well engineered and that appeals to more of the general public.
But for me, and this is a personnel opinion, I want more from a car. The looks just get my interest, so I feel I must give it a second look. I’m glad Tony427 brought up the sound of the car; you are so right. Most performance engines have a nice sound to them, but others just have this “x-factor” about them, which every Piston Header will know only too well what I’m referring to.
A real Lamborghini Engine his this, but an MR2 doesn’t, sorry.
Chr1sch also makes a valid point; Quality of finish: Again, if the car looks great on the outside, with its flashy paint job, but looks like a cut and shut when you look behind the panels, then the quality is lost, people will be put off and unfortunately label all kitcars the same.
What we need is more Kitcars that have substance, something people can look deeper than the colour of the paint, open the bonnet and continue to see quality work and engineering. In the car world, there are thousands of truly great engineered cars, which can be appreciated just as much with the bonnet up as its looks when on a poster.
Yes, I think we all know what damage has been done by TopGear to the kitcar world, and yes I think we need to get the likes of Ultima and Gardner Douglas on this program, to put things right. Maybe, if the producers of TopGear have now turned the program into a superficial, poor comedy program similar to big brother and the like, then perhaps we should be looking to contact 5th Gear, see if they could run a story and show kitcars in a more positive light?
I think the kitcar world needs to move away from body kit fakes, and track day cars with zero practicality, and try and create some new fresh designs, which are well engineered and that appeals to more of the general public.
KDIcarmad said:
I do not like the Cobras and fail to see why this is said to be the most copied car in world. Will more replicas revive interest and sales?
In the UK, you guys have 100% more kits than we do in the states; we have the Cobra, and you have the Cobra and the 7. It’s an exaggeration of course, but not so far from the truth. I don’t own a Cobra, nor do I plan on owning one (I prefer things that are a bit more unique), but to deny the broad-based appeal? Well, at least you know you are in a pretty small club. The Cobra is a manly, manly sexy, sexy car… on steroids. The fact that so many are sold, says volumes.Tony427 said:
As someone who is nailing their third fake plastic st box (FPSB) together the appeal of a kit car is almost 100% imbued in its shape.
I love the Cobra, not because of its Ferrari beating history, not because of its American muscle, not because a real one is worth millions, I love it because of the way it looks, in particular its "hips".
I know it sounds a bit perverse, but the whole car just looks "right". It’s the perfect shape for a sportscar.
Then you can add in all the stuff that turns money into sound which is what all us boys love and it becomes the stuff of dreams.
True some guys get a bit "precious" about the iconic nature of the car, and others like myself go beyond the envelope of conformity ( EFI, Jap and European engines, 35 MPG for Gods sake) but the first thing that must bring owners to the car in the first place is the shape.
Get the shape right and people will buy.
Now getting the next right shape is the $60,000 question.
Cheers,
Tony
Cobra, agreed.t box (FPSB) together the appeal of a kit car is almost 100% imbued in its shape. I love the Cobra, not because of its Ferrari beating history, not because of its American muscle, not because a real one is worth millions, I love it because of the way it looks, in particular its "hips".
I know it sounds a bit perverse, but the whole car just looks "right". It’s the perfect shape for a sportscar.
Then you can add in all the stuff that turns money into sound which is what all us boys love and it becomes the stuff of dreams.
True some guys get a bit "precious" about the iconic nature of the car, and others like myself go beyond the envelope of conformity ( EFI, Jap and European engines, 35 MPG for Gods sake) but the first thing that must bring owners to the car in the first place is the shape.
Get the shape right and people will buy.
Now getting the next right shape is the $60,000 question.
Cheers,
Tony
Your latter statement, I think, is what keeps the classics alive (120s 1401, 3000s, Cobras, 7s, Jags etc. I hear a lot of guys saying, oh no, not another 7, or Cobra, but in fact it’s’ the continual improvement and updating that keeps these going. I mean a lot of guys want to drive a classic-looking car, but don’t want to hassle with the anemic, outdated and difficult-to-find-replacements-for mechanicals. The frames, the suspensions, tires engines systems etc. are continually updated to make owning and regular driving more pleasurable.
Take a 7. In recent years, there was the Zetec, now the Duratec, and coming down the pipeline is the Ecoboost. At each revision (upgrade really) you get better fuel economy, better reliability – what’s not to like. The fact that they STILL sell in large numbers after all these years tells us that the designs and concepts are rather timeless, no?
However, Tony has a point. If it’s not a classic, it better be the canine’s b
ks. I’ve been following kit cars for more than 30 years. So many have come and gone, but the ones that go quickly are fugly. I mean sometimes you see a ‘new’ one and you think WTF[udge]! You KNOW they are going down and it ain’t going to be pretty.jontysafe said:
Would anyone actually want a kit car of a kitcar? Genuine question
Yes, and I can think of several examples:Teal (take your pick)
Buckland (updated with new mechanicals and a better grill (looks like they are working on the mechanical update and it’s on my short list – I’ll have to fix the grill)
Ultima (for less)
I’d also like to add to that list cool cars that are tough to find at a reasonable cost, but worthy like the Lotus 23, which I can only seem to find turn-key, and the Ford GT 40 which is cool, but always so expensive. On the expensive side, I agree with much of what Dreamspeeds has said, if it’s going to be a knock-off, it should be quality, but if the price is too high, then the customer base gets pretty small – it’s a balancing act to be sure.
Dreamspeed said:
Yes, it’s true just about every sports car is pretty much “sold” on looks alone, if it looks great on a poster, people will want one.
But for me, and this is a personnel opinion, I want more from a car. The looks just get my interest, so I feel I must give it a second look. I’m glad Tony427 brought up the sound of the car; you are so right. Most performance engines have a nice sound to them, but others just have this “x-factor” about them, which every Piston Header will know only too well what I’m referring to.
A real Lamborghini Engine his this, but an MR2 doesn’t, sorry.
Chr1sch also makes a valid point; Quality of finish: Again, if the car looks great on the outside, with its flashy paint job, but looks like a cut and shut when you look behind the panels, then the quality is lost, people will be put off and unfortunately label all kitcars the same.
What we need is more Kitcars that have substance, something people can look deeper than the colour of the paint, open the bonnet and continue to see quality work and engineering. In the car world, there are thousands of truly great engineered cars, which can be appreciated just as much with the bonnet up as its looks when on a poster.
First, your project sounds interesting and kudos for trying. I think you bring up some valid points about quality, and posing etc. But it’s well understood that nearly without exception quality costs, so there is always a balancing act between delivering quality, but doing it within a price structure that will allow the customer to drop the hammer on the deal. I’d love a GT 40 for instance, or even an Ultima, but have a hard time justifying dropping an arm, and leg AND a left testicle for one. Because, at the point you are at that cost, you might as well get the original (as you’ve previously pointed out).But for me, and this is a personnel opinion, I want more from a car. The looks just get my interest, so I feel I must give it a second look. I’m glad Tony427 brought up the sound of the car; you are so right. Most performance engines have a nice sound to them, but others just have this “x-factor” about them, which every Piston Header will know only too well what I’m referring to.
A real Lamborghini Engine his this, but an MR2 doesn’t, sorry.
Chr1sch also makes a valid point; Quality of finish: Again, if the car looks great on the outside, with its flashy paint job, but looks like a cut and shut when you look behind the panels, then the quality is lost, people will be put off and unfortunately label all kitcars the same.
What we need is more Kitcars that have substance, something people can look deeper than the colour of the paint, open the bonnet and continue to see quality work and engineering. In the car world, there are thousands of truly great engineered cars, which can be appreciated just as much with the bonnet up as its looks when on a poster.
I think this is really what makes a 7 so attractive. A manufacturer can deliver loads of performance for decent money, which makes the overall package attractive. And, it’s frankly why they will ALWAYS be a bit popular despite how bored some are with them. Also, for us Yanks, we aren’t THAT tired of them yet. Our problem has always been that there were not so many donors as y’all; so, the 7 deal, is pretty much in its infancy over here.
I will say though, that if your vehicle isn’t visually [very] appealing it will struggle.
Sorry if this sounds a bit thick and not really paying any attention to lemans is the delta wing actualy a modified caterham/westfield kit car is so then thats really intresting.
One of the previous post said about coming away from fakes and track day kits well look at the market and generaly that whats sell mev/road track and race sell a huge amount of kits mainly exo looks cars and most are used for track days and or the cheap build of the exocet of one im building. Fakes sell because people what to drive something that looks like there dream car be it at a stratos/ gt40/ cobra build or mr2 with lamb or ferrari look body panels.
Production quality kits don't sell because one to expensive case in point the murtaya is best part of 30k for a subaru with a coupe body in there abouts way. Why would you do that when you can spend a tenth of that and can have a highly tunned scooby and the same if you look at 2nd hand cars you can get a ferrari 355 for the price of one. Two the trim and quality is not the same as a production car and three the idea of a kit car is something cheap to build and mainly used for weekend use and track days.
If you look at the sals of the exocet in just 2 years on the market it has sold around 300 kits sold to several countries that is what people want a cheap, simply design with a great donor and to have some fun with it when finished. It's not the most pretty of designs but i don't think any of the exo style cars even the atom are good looking cars but it is not meant to be pretty just a fun toy for the weekend a fun build and meet like minded people who have problems and overcome them and to share them.
I truly believe mev/rtr have the best models on sale out of any other kit car company and i like many others will keep on buying from them and having fun and who cares what joe public think what kit cars are when we have a great choice of cars out there and a great community of experience people and the youngsters who will take that over in the future what more to people want production car quality kit cars for half the price of one well that is never going to happen.
One of the previous post said about coming away from fakes and track day kits well look at the market and generaly that whats sell mev/road track and race sell a huge amount of kits mainly exo looks cars and most are used for track days and or the cheap build of the exocet of one im building. Fakes sell because people what to drive something that looks like there dream car be it at a stratos/ gt40/ cobra build or mr2 with lamb or ferrari look body panels.
Production quality kits don't sell because one to expensive case in point the murtaya is best part of 30k for a subaru with a coupe body in there abouts way. Why would you do that when you can spend a tenth of that and can have a highly tunned scooby and the same if you look at 2nd hand cars you can get a ferrari 355 for the price of one. Two the trim and quality is not the same as a production car and three the idea of a kit car is something cheap to build and mainly used for weekend use and track days.
If you look at the sals of the exocet in just 2 years on the market it has sold around 300 kits sold to several countries that is what people want a cheap, simply design with a great donor and to have some fun with it when finished. It's not the most pretty of designs but i don't think any of the exo style cars even the atom are good looking cars but it is not meant to be pretty just a fun toy for the weekend a fun build and meet like minded people who have problems and overcome them and to share them.
I truly believe mev/rtr have the best models on sale out of any other kit car company and i like many others will keep on buying from them and having fun and who cares what joe public think what kit cars are when we have a great choice of cars out there and a great community of experience people and the youngsters who will take that over in the future what more to people want production car quality kit cars for half the price of one well that is never going to happen.
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