Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

qdos said:

Steffan said:

Wouldn't it be fantastic if it actually gets built in numbers. It ought to be possible with the modern superfrugal 3 cylinder power plants around to hit 80mpg and 80mph in an ultralight three wheeler. Sadly I suspect meeting the passenger safety cell requirements, rollover protection etc etc will be the killer in this. I just cannot personally see this happening. I sincerely hope it does. 60 years ago Berkeley with the three wheeler were betting pretty close. It should be happening now.

A bit like this?



I did this between Abingdon and Milborne St Andrew (Oxford to Dorchester) and I did it again a few weeks later brimming the tank to be sure it wasn't a faulty trip computer. Only snag is that it was in my four wheeled Xsara Picasso

Excellent post qdos which really underlines how the technology in motoring has radically reduced fuel consumption in motoring. Brilliant results and this underlines my question on this topic. Berkeley were way ahead of their time with their three wheeler's (designed of course by the seriously underrated Lawrie Bond) which to this day 60 years later has IMO never really been equaled as a design let alone bettered.

Quite why this is I do not know. But it is a fact. With modern technology and lightweight materials there should be a range of vehicles bettering this result. I fact there is not one kit car equaling this level of achievement. First question must be why. Second question should be how can we achieve that. Food for thought.

I can agree with you Steffan and one of my answers to your questions would be as follows :

1- Maybe lack of interest by those who should be buying this type of product
2- Maybe the need for such a vehicle is not there yet...or
3- The price is not right.
4- Maybe someone is working on such a project.....but hasn't come forward yet...


The Elio has a few interesting ideas, but in my personal opinion, the design should have been more original and unique and really don't like the tandem seating set-up.

If they had wanted a narrow cabin maybe they could have used the AUDI Urban Concept layout:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/14/audi-urban-conc...

I still think this is a project attainable by the kitcar industry if a few had the resources to pull through such a project and potential buyers for a kitcar production.

3 cylinder Engines and drivetrains for such a Threewheeler are now plentyfull and for a skilled engineer to design a chassis for such a project would be easy and new technolgies could be adopted for the bodywork, chassis and other...

Anyway we have a dream project in the making but who is going to invest in these trying times ?....maybe that is the ultimate question for it to become a reality?


I believe it's only going to become a personal project of mine some day...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 12th January 11:10

[Justaredbadge]

fuoriserie said:

I can agree with you Steffan and one of my answers to your questions would be as follows :

1- Maybe lack of interest by those who should be buying this type of product
2- Maybe the need for such a vehicle is not there yet...or
3- The price is not right.
4- Maybe someone is working on such a project.....but hasn't come forward yet...


The Elio has a few interesting ideas, but in my personal opinion, the design should have been more original and unique and really don't like the tandem seating set-up.

If they had wanted a narrow cabin maybe they could have used the AUDI Urban Concept layout:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/14/audi-urban-conc...

I still think this is a project attainable by the kitcar industry if a few had the resources to pull through such a project and potential buyers for a kitcar production.

3 cylinder Engines and drivetrains for such a Threewheeler are now plentyfull and for a skilled engineer to design a chassis for such a project would be easy and new technolgies could be adopted for the bodywork, chassis and other...

Anyway we have a dream project in the making but who is going to invest in these trying times ?....maybe that is the ultimate question for it to become a reality?


I believe it's only going to become a personal project of mine some day...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 12th January 11:10

I would have thought that points 1, 2 & 3 would dictate that there weren't many people trying for point 4.

unfortunately, these days, it would take a mainstream manufacturer to make a 3 wheeler, have a load of "celebrities" photographed getting on and out of one, have a positive review on top gear etc before the masses would even think about buying a ready built one, let alone a kit.

There has to be the desire for one before there is any point in making (what may well be) a fantastic product with no-one to sell to.

look at the.kellforms retort thread for that. loads pf people saying what a fantastic car it was, then the factory saying they couldn't really sell them.

Now apply that thinking to a vehicle which will not look like a normal car due to having a wheel missing and you have your market.

[Steffan]

Justaredbadge said:

fuoriserie said:

I can agree with you Steffan and one of my answers to your questions would be as follows :

1- Maybe lack of interest by those who should be buying this type of product
2- Maybe the need for such a vehicle is not there yet...or
3- The price is not right.
4- Maybe someone is working on such a project.....but hasn't come forward yet...


The Elio has a few interesting ideas, but in my personal opinion, the design should have been more original and unique and really don't like the tandem seating set-up.

If they had wanted a narrow cabin maybe they could have used the AUDI Urban Concept layout:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/14/audi-urban-conc...

I still think this is a project attainable by the kitcar industry if a few had the resources to pull through such a project and potential buyers for a kitcar production.

3 cylinder Engines and drivetrains for such a Threewheeler are now plentyfull and for a skilled engineer to design a chassis for such a project would be easy and new technolgies could be adopted for the bodywork, chassis and other...

Anyway we have a dream project in the making but who is going to invest in these trying times ?....maybe that is the ultimate question for it to become a reality?


I believe it's only going to become a personal project of mine some day...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 12th January 11:10

I would have thought that points 1, 2 & 3 would dictate that there weren't many people trying for point 4.

unfortunately, these days, it would take a mainstream manufacturer to make a 3 wheeler, have a load of "celebrities" photographed getting on and out of one, have a positive review on top gear etc before the masses would even think about buying a ready built one, let alone a kit.

There has to be the desire for one before there is any point in making (what may well be) a fantastic product with no-one to sell to.

look at the.kellforms retort thread for that. loads pf people saying what a fantastic car it was, then the factory saying they couldn't really sell them.

Now apply that thinking to a vehicle which will not look like a normal car due to having a wheel missing and you have your market.

Interesting that we all have agreed that these cars seem very unlikely to ever be built in numbers. We also have different views of why the market for three wheeler cars is so thin, if in fact it currently exists at all. In the post WWII period economy and cheap transport were absolutely critical to cash starved Europeans. The entire considerable Italian scooter business floated on that fact. The three wheeler boom of Trojan, Reliant, Bond, Berkeley, Isetta, BMW, BSA etc etc floated (and sank) on that market immediately post war. Indeed as is now widely known, it was the three wheeler and bubble car market that pushed Sir Leonard Lord into instructing Sir Alec Issogonis into designing the Mini. That I suspect more than anything else finished off the three wheeler market. The Mini was (and still is to date) far an away the greatest small car ever made, Every other manufacturer adopted the advantages of that layout.

Sadly for economy transport the current range offered by the Citroen C1, Peugeot 107, Smart Car etc etc is so economic and so inexpensive it is difficult to see why the general motorist would seek a three wheeler.. I personally love three wheelers. I recognise this is a throwback to my early motorcycle times and later three wheelers that I loved. As qdos suggested earlier on with his excellent Picasso post there does seem to be no way to even reach the levels of current four wheel cars economy and comfort let alone equal them.

[Justaredbadge]

I would have said that the affordability of four wheelers did more to kill the "quarter cheaper" attitude of the post war years. ford did just as much as bmc did in that regard.

how much of the three wheeler attitude of the public is down to the "wrong way around" reliant products?

Only Morgan have seen a resurgence in recent years, although i suspect that they are seen as much as a fashion item as they are a lightweight plaything. Interesting that they had a rave review on top gear too...

[Steffan]

Justaredbadge said:

I would have said that the affordability of four wheelers did more to kill the "quarter cheaper" attitude of the post war years. ford did just as much as bmc did in that regard.

how much of the three wheeler attitude of the public is down to the "wrong way around" reliant products?

Only Morgan have seen a resurgence in recent years, although i suspect that they are seen as much as a fashion item as they are a lightweight plaything. Interesting that they had a rave review on top gear too...

Some of the best road drives I have had in 50 years of driving (so fat!) was in three wheelers. In my teens I owned Morgan three wheelers, BSA three wheelers, Bond three wheelers and so forth. Always British never owned a foriegn car until the Buggy craze when the VW platform became de rigeur. The Reliant products certainly did not help. I chose never to own a Reliant three wheeler. Ever.

The Morgan review is not surprising to me, I still hanker after my old JAP 1100 cc V twin engined Morgan the performance was brilliant. With modern technology there is no reason why such cars could not be real scorchers. But as you say the inherent economy is already equaled with four wheel transport and there are no real advantages with not having four wheels present in so many successful cheap to run accommodating hatchbacks.

[Justaredbadge]

So maybe the kit manufacturers need to up their game to provide a better quality product to tempt people from tyre mainstream...


There are many ways in which this could be done, some of them would even save the kit manufacturers money in doing so.

Another nail on the coffin of the industry is possibly the easy availability of finance on cars that would otherwise be out of the average person's price range.

consider a mid spec 3 series BMW new. Price - £30k at a guess.

That would get you an Ultima on the second hand market. Still out of the range for most people to actually buy, but possible for a lot of people to pay monthly for.

The want is not there. The desire is not there. Mainly because there are better, standard products out there that are (short term) cheaper to "achieve".

Steffan, with all due respect I suspect that your experiences and views of an automotive nature don't align with many people in this country. You have had a lifetime of kitcars to enjoy and you have the time, money and space to house.your own personal kit car museum.


Your views are probably less valid to the kit.industry as a "probable" single future sale than your average man/woman on the street with an interest in cars, some spare cash and not.much to.do.at the weekends.

apologies for the autocorrect and errant full stops. cold fat thumbs and small touch screens don't go hand in hand...

[Steffan]

Justaredbadge said:

So maybe the kit manufacturers need to up their game to provide a better quality product to tempt people from tyre mainstream...


There are many ways in which this could be done, some of them would even save the kit manufacturers money in doing so.

Another nail on the coffin of the industry is possibly the easy availability of finance on cars that would otherwise be out of the average person's price range.

consider a mid spec 3 series BMW new. Price - £30k at a guess.

That would get you an Ultima on the second hand market. Still out of the range for most people to actually buy, but possible for a lot of people to pay monthly for.

The want is not there. The desire is not there. Mainly because there are better, standard products out there that are (short term) cheaper to "achieve".

Steffan, with all due respect I suspect that your experiences and views of an automotive nature don't align with many people in this country. You have had a lifetime of kitcars to enjoy and you have the time, money and space to house.your own personal kit car museum.


Your views are probably less valid to the kit.industry as a "probable" single future sale than your average man/woman on the street with an interest in cars, some spare cash and not.much to.do.at the weekends.

apologies for the autocorrect and errant full stops. cold fat thumbs and small touch screens don't go hand in hand...

I am inclined to agree with you Justaredbadge. I do think I have been exceptionally lucky just to still be alive despite a lifetime of excess in every way I could ever find. I did my very best but I am still here! Much to my various specialist medicos surprise indeed amazement. My mania for kit cars is atypical of most car owners indeed of most kit car owners and my Compulsive/Obsessive nature make every hobby an opportunity for more madness. Probably explains the excess of women who moved on to quieter waters! Since I still have a significant number of kit cars in bits being built from kits, IVA'd or rebuilt or refurbished as well as a number on the road, I clearly am a one off. Probably just as well. I therefore agree I am not the one to represent the general views on kit cars. I like three wheelers! Even I cannot see a current three wheeler that is as good as the Berkeley's built 50 years ago!

[Justaredbadge]

Ok, be honest now. Would a Berkeley even be possible now with iva and all the other guff and bureaucracy that surrounds kit cars?

Was it a car of it's time?

[Steffan]

Justaredbadge said:

Ok, be honest now. Would a Berkeley even be possible now with iva and all the other guff and bureaucracy that surrounds kit cars?

Was it a car of it's time?

That is another interesting question. Not in its original form certainly. Not a hope. However I do think a front wheel drive motorcycle engined Berkeley clone designed to satisfy all the IVA technical requirements preferably with a glassfibre monocoque a la Midas (I have two) could be IVAable with sufficient design input by structural experts and engineers. No doubt qdos could make a better fist of this than I with his personal Midas and engineering background. It would be most interesting to look at that possibility.

What I am a lot less sure of is whether the result would be as good as it would need to be to work successfully. That is the really difficult achievement. So often with modified cars especially kit cars the final result does not reflect what was expected when the design was first envisaged. Classic examples are the various Mini three wheelers (Triad, Mosquito, Stimson Scorcher, etc etc) which are just not what they should be and cars such as the Hudson etc which just do not provide credible usable transport. Only way to find out is to build one and given the number I already have I cannot see this happening just yet! But you never know!

Edited by Steffan on Sunday 12th January 18:43

[fuoriserie]

Justaredbadge said:

fuoriserie said:

I can agree with you Steffan and one of my answers to your questions would be as follows :

1- Maybe lack of interest by those who should be buying this type of product
2- Maybe the need for such a vehicle is not there yet...or
3- The price is not right.
4- Maybe someone is working on such a project.....but hasn't come forward yet...


The Elio has a few interesting ideas, but in my personal opinion, the design should have been more original and unique and really don't like the tandem seating set-up.

If they had wanted a narrow cabin maybe they could have used the AUDI Urban Concept layout:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/09/14/audi-urban-conc...

I still think this is a project attainable by the kitcar industry if a few had the resources to pull through such a project and potential buyers for a kitcar production.

3 cylinder Engines and drivetrains for such a Threewheeler are now plentyfull and for a skilled engineer to design a chassis for such a project would be easy and new technolgies could be adopted for the bodywork, chassis and other...

Anyway we have a dream project in the making but who is going to invest in these trying times ?....maybe that is the ultimate question for it to become a reality?


I believe it's only going to become a personal project of mine some day...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 12th January 11:10

I would have thought that points 1, 2 & 3 would dictate that there weren't many people trying for point 4.

unfortunately, these days, it would take a mainstream manufacturer to make a 3 wheeler, have a load of "celebrities" photographed getting on and out of one, have a positive review on top gear etc before the masses would even think about buying a ready built one, let alone a kit.

There has to be the desire for one before there is any point in making (what may well be) a fantastic product with no-one to sell to.

look at the.kellforms retort thread for that. loads pf people saying what a fantastic car it was, then the factory saying they couldn't really sell them.

Now apply that thinking to a vehicle which will not look like a normal car due to having a wheel missing and you have your market.

True, but in the end it depends on what market you're looking at? if it's the UK, Europe, the USA or globally? I take it that you're looking only at the UK and I would have to agree with you.

Anyway, we will have to see what will happen in the future, or by making it ourselves if we want to, or by looking at what others are doing instead... I choose to do my own dreaming and have a few projects I'm working on just for the fun of it and will stay that way....


But to get back with the ELIOhere is an interesting Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFAb_iEK2Pk#t=51

and another article:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/08/elio-moto...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 12th January 21:10

[Justaredbadge]

fuoriserie said:

True, but in the end it depends on what market you're looking at? if it's the UK, Europe, the USA or globally? I take it that you're looking only at the UK and I would have to agree with you.

Anyway, we will have to see what will happen in the future, or by making it ourselves if we want to, or by looking at what others are doing instead... I choose to do my own dreaming and have a few projects I'm working on just for the fun of it and will stay that way....


But to get back with the ELIOhere is an interesting Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFAb_iEK2Pk#t=51

and another article:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/08/elio-moto...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 12th January 21:10

Being based in the UK it would be churlish to begin designing anything for other.markets before getting established in my home market. Once that is established, then is the time to play.


Another consideration is all these 35 quid to tax cars have taken away the tax break that 3 wheelers had in the UK.

[CatMan21]

There's a ton of inspiration for three-wheeler builders in a new book that's just come out - Three-Wheelers A-Z by Chris Rees, claimed to have 1,122 different designs profiled in it.

Just received my copy via www.quillerprint.co.uk, and it's a real eye-opener. My favourite design is the BPG Uno III, a motorbike with two close-set rear wheels that can raise itself up like a unicycle using gyroscopes.

[Steffan]

CatMan21 said:

There's a ton of inspiration for three-wheeler builders in a new book that's just come out - Three-Wheelers A-Z by Chris Rees, claimed to have 1,122 different designs profiled in it.

Just received my copy via www.quillerprint.co.uk, and it's a real eye-opener. My favourite design is the BPG Uno III, a motorbike with two close-set rear wheels that can raise itself up like a unicycle using gyroscopes.

I will buy one to amuse myself in the dark winter nights. I am that old!

[fuoriserie]

CatMan21 said:

There's a ton of inspiration for three-wheeler builders in a new book that's just come out - Three-Wheelers A-Z by Chris Rees, claimed to have 1,122 different designs profiled in it.

Just received my copy via www.quillerprint.co.uk, and it's a real eye-opener. My favourite design is the BPG Uno III, a motorbike with two close-set rear wheels that can raise itself up like a unicycle using gyroscopes.

Thanks for the info.

[fuoriserie]

http://www.amazon.com/The-A-Z-Three-Wheelers-Defin...

Has anyone bought this book? is it worth it ?

Thanks for the info.

[Baron Greenback]

Found this during lunch time googling at work soon to be testing! Me want to see it fly for sure!

The Switchblade is a three-wheeled, fully enclosed vehicle that you drive from your garage to a local airport. Once there, you swing the wings out and fly directly to your destination at up to 200 mph, at altitudes to 10,000 feet. You simply land and swing the wings closed, continuing on wherever you want to go.

http://www.samsonmotorworks.com/switchblade

Edited by Baron Greenback on Saturday 25th January 14:06

[Steffan]

fuoriserie said:

http://www.amazon.com/The-A-Z-Three-Wheelers-Defin...

Has anyone bought this book? is it worth it ?

Thanks for the info.

I have bought it and it is ideal if, like me you love three wheelers. All the oddities are there like the Allard Clipper which never really got started but interests me (Sad barstard that I am). If only because Lawrie Bond was involved in that car. I am pursuing a copy of his biography which demonstrates how daft I am. £60 odd a pop! I do not think it takes us much further forward on this subject but as an evocation of this genre then yes, I do think its worthwhile. I suspect you already know a great deal more than any of these books can contain about modern three wheeler designs but it is a decent book. I think you could see a couple of older unknown types therein. I certainly have. Good luck!

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

http://www.amazon.com/The-A-Z-Three-Wheelers-Defin...

Has anyone bought this book? is it worth it ?

Thanks for the info.

I have bought it and it is ideal if, like me you love three wheelers. All the oddities are there like the Allard Clipper which never really got started but interests me (Sad barstard that I am). If only because Lawrie Bond was involved in that car. I am pursuing a copy of his biography which demonstrates how daft I am. £60 odd a pop! I do not think it takes us much further forward on this subject but as an evocation of this genre then yes, I do think its worthwhile. I suspect you already know a great deal more than any of these books can contain about modern three wheeler designs but it is a decent book. I think you could see a couple of older unknown types therein. I certainly have. Good luck!

Thanks Steffan for your info and as you, I do love to see all the oddities that have gone by still and like to study the history of each three wheeler and why it was engineered or designed in a certain way.

This was the other book I was considering as I have the original book from the 80's and this should be the update :

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Wheelers-A-Z-Definitiv...

Maybe I should get both....

[Stuart Mills]

Here are the components for my latest 3 wheeler. Lithium Yttrium pack with a double stacked 3 phase motor, 125cc motor bike wheels, KLF quad bike front uprights and the front wishbones from a MEV Sonic7, just happened to be about right! The steering box is from a golf buggy and rear swing arm from a Yamaha 400. It will have tandem seats, do 60 mph and a range of 100 miles from the 7.2 KWH pack with regen brakes. Body style to be aerodynamic but I haven't got to that bit yet.

[fuoriserie]

Stuart Mills said:

Here are the components for my latest 3 wheeler. Lithium Yttrium pack with a double stacked 3 phase motor, 125cc motor bike wheels, KLF quad bike front uprights and the front wishbones from a MEV Sonic7, just happened to be about right! The steering box is from a golf buggy and rear swing arm from a Yamaha 400. It will have tandem seats, do 60 mph and a range of 100 miles from the 7.2 KWH pack with regen brakes. Body style to be aerodynamic but I haven't got to that bit yet.

Nice project and looking forward to your new design.