Three wheeler Cabin Scooter Design

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Indeed it is. Any idea what the all up cost would be? Engines have improved dramatically post the Oil crisis and given an ultralight vehicle this might just be adequate. I am in Italy currently but back in the UK at Christmas for an operation (again) and I will keep this in mind and check I out once I am back OTR. Got to be worth a look and careful consideration esp with a Coventry supplier all I need to do now is find a serviceable Berkeley which has a decent tub and off we go again on the next project. There seems to me to be a reasonable chanc of success because this engine must be lighter than the old heavy 1950's engines used by Berkeley originally. Way to go possibly? Need to see the actual engine running and operating well enough first. Good find well done fuoriserie! Coming from Italy (as i kow you do'), I do admire the constant perusing in depth of this genre which you clearly must be doing a great dal ofan order to pick up these gems. Well done indeed.

Thank you Steffan....,....I've just decided what my next new project is going to be and a similar engine might work for my needs but maybe a 150 or 250cc would even be better as both would have slightly more power and work better and a light chassis and bodywork might do the trick...and a fire storming speed of 60mph might be achievable.....

Prices vary, but haven't bought one yet...
I've been doing quite a lot of research on threewheelers and quadricycles and decided that my future project is going to be in this niche.

Money is tight for everyone and believe that it will be for the next 3-5yrs, especially for a lot of kitcar enthusiasts and really think that a return to a more affordable, fun and inexpensive threewheeler might be interesting....maybe.


Cheers
Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 25th October 14:59

[fuoriserie]

CanAm said:

Not a cabin scooter, but I fancy a modern take on this:-

I like it and have a sketch somewhere in my drawers....will look for it and post it here...

[fuoriserie]

Gemaeden said:

If reverse is not speed limited (and durable enough) it looks like just what I need for my rear (not mid) engined ultra narrow tadpole trike project. Thanks Italo

You're welcome Martin and looking forward to seeing your new project in the future.

Cheers
Italo

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Indeed and Italo has done all the three wheeler collectors and builders on here a substantial service in posting this link. I will certainly be looking at these when I am back in the UK. In the meantime I will get active at a distance by looking for a Berkeley three wheeler tub which I can use as a base for a new set of mechanics hopefully producing a drive able enjoyable kit car.

If anyone on here knows of a reasonable non running Berkeley three wheeler which the current owner is looking to sell do please PM me on PH. I will advertise and I am hopeful but if anyone knows of an actual unwanted base car I am seriously interested. Thank you. Steffan.

Thanks Steffan...

I believe in sharing information like this for everyone to benefit and use....and eventhough I'm working on my new project and using something similar, I would like to see others come up with new ideas using engines like these that are more affordable, or even better, why not consider Quad or ATV engines with reverse gears, from famous brands( KTM, HONDA,YAMAHA, KAWASAKI; SUZUKI or lesser known....) they would fit perfectly with the idea of modern Microcar.


But my real find and I'm sharing this here with threewheeler enthusiasts for the first time, would be this engine and would love to try it one day, a 3 cylinder 400cc engine with reverse gear !!!
http://sonikmotor.com/index.php/400-cc-engine
http://sonikmotor.com/index.php/atv/reptile/galler...

If you want to buy it, check here for info:
http://chhetri.en.ec21.com/400cc_3_Cylinder_Engine...

Just to get an idea of the great sound of that engine check this Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiEjJZMpJGM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBf49TtnOnU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dTAgFYoRTw

Enjoy it guys and imagine what a great sound our threewheelers would have using such a compact engine....
Cheers
Italo

[fuoriserie]

The SonikMotors 3 cylinder 400cc engine is sold in the USA as VENTO:

http://www.vento.com/
http://thekneeslider.com/vento-3-cylinder-motorcyc...
http://thekneeslider.com/vento-reptile-400-atv/

Interesting article on the engine...but it seems now that it will be manufactured in the USA and not China...or are the chinese manufacturing a copy or is ti the same engine and it will be asssembled in the USA ? who knows.....

Still puzzled.....:

http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/custom%20bi...


But this seems the real story from the engineer:

https://www.behance.net/gallery/Vento-400-Cafe-GT/...

Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 28th October 14:24

[fuoriserie]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LIFAN-250CC-V-TWIN-HONDA-E...

This engine looks sweet....

[fuoriserie]

http://www.amazon.com/125CC-ENGINE-MOTOR-REVERSE-B...

Another scooter engine with reverse gear available from amazon.

[fuoriserie]

Gemaeden said:

Steffan said:

Gemaeden said:

I'm getting toward finishing the mechanics and chassis of my single seater cabin scooter but really don't know how to style it. Art deco retro seems easiest and cool but what do others think. Dimensions about 2m L x 0.6m W x 1.2 H Wheels 1F 2R. Any ideas for something modern?.

There are a lot of very well shaped single seater models about but for clarification are you looking at a two or three wheeler design? Given the width I assume two wheel. In which case there are still several styles to look at for inspiration. Personally I believe the old Berkeley designs of three wheeler sports still cars remain the best ever made in volume with an overall glass fibre/aluminium monocoque giving a very robust unit at reasonable cost. Best of luck to you I do wish you well. Others may well disagree but there are some real experts on here like fuoriserie who may well be able to offer more modern solutions. Enjoy yourself and live the dream either way!

I appreciate the Berkeley's qualities but it, like virtually all three wheelers, has the problem that it is as wide as a car and so does not have the motorcycle virtue of lane splitting which was my main design parameter. I've looked on Google for concept designs as inspiration but I can't seem to find much that I like that is narrow enough. I like the Sub 3 but it is open and has a wide track. Imagine perhaps a half width and somewhat shorter Daihatsu Copen, Suzuki Cappuccino or Smart Roadster, but I'm looking for something that's a bit more Wow!

Mine's a three wheeler in order to be stable while stationary and so can have an enclosed cabin with no need to put feet down when coming to a stop. This means comfort 365 days a year. In many urban areas it will also be allowed to use bus lanes as it is a motorcycle rather than a car. I must add it can also be easily controlled dynamically as I have developed novel and unique systems to enable it to be steered like a car rather than a motorcycle. i.e. it doesn't need to lean. Obviously this means no lean lock needed, like on the Piaggio MP3.

I've opted for 1F 2R for good reasons but my control systems will also work with 2F 1R, 2F 2R and probably 1F 1R, but that would mean wearing a helmet which was also a no-no as far as my original parameters were concerned. Please don't think it will have the Reliant Robin problems which, due to bad design, have given this layout such a bad name.

Very interesting project and looking forward to seeing it in the future....

With reference to your design, how about a design inspired the BMW Clever :

http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/10/09/bmw-unveils-clev...


or by the Lean Machine Three wheeler concept ?

Edited by fuoriserie on Monday 8th December 17:10

[fuoriserie]

http://www.orangeimports.co.uk/eng13-167ml-complet...

Interesting engine and components for a threewheeler kit.

http://www.orangeimports.co.uk/bashan-bs250s-11b-p...

[fuoriserie]

http://www.ktm-technologies.com/media/1191/e3w.mp4

The new KTM electric 3 Wheeler Video

and some other info in the Brochure:

http://www.ktm-technologies.com/media/1127/234_han...

http://www.ktm-technologies.com/media/1103/e3w-stu...

I guess KTM is going to diversify into Urban Mobility in the near future....

[fuoriserie]

Martin A said:

Looks like it'll struggle with speed humps given the ground clearance at 1:21. What we need is a narrow single seater trike, not a 3 wheeled Smart car.

Here is an old project of mine.....maybe a new model in the future ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQbNdkfHpcg

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 14th March 16:46

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Afternoon fuorisierie, any idea of the prices for this veloceped?

Looks a very nice car to me but as ever being an Accountant costs are very close to my heart. I cannot see it being cheap. The doors lifting is an interesting apprach, but I think must impinge on the costs. Any ideas? Speed bumps are a damned nuisance on the road nowadays I am bound to say I would expect problems with that minimalist ride height. Nice looking little car should run OK I would think but the costs are a concern. Nice to see someone is having a go!

Ride heights are a perennial problem with kit cars I am forever avoiding high bumps in town and circumnavigating around England to find the least damaging route. Over the years I have gradually raised the ride height limits in my mounts in desperation, and life is so much simpler for that. Good post it is always interesting to read your contributions and to get a window on the latest uppgrades and changes in KC manufacturing. Keep it Up!

Good morning Steffan,.....it's a long story ( that is why the thread is so long...) but you're spot on, as the manufacturing costs for the kit, were too close to an open JZR-Triking threewheeler kitcar and the drawback was that you only had a sinle seater and the small capcity scooter engine 160cc.

In reality this was going to be produced by an Italian scooter manufacture, but in 2009 and after 80yrs. of manufcaturing they decided to close shop !!!...my partners and I were left with the project and tried to sell it in kit form, but the costs didn't add up for a small business venture... and eventually the economic crisis caught up also with my partners.

If it had gone in production in Italy it would have been classed as a Quadricycle or Microcar.

I believe there is a niche for a single seater threewheeler in the kitcar industry and the Eco-Exo is the perfect threewheeler and at the right price.

If I would re-design it today, it would have to have a bigger engine, maybe a 250-300 or even 400 cc engine, bigger scooter wheels as 16in. wheels( the original had 13in. car wheels) and and for the body I would use fiberglass and cloth( see the Velorex Oskar trike...)
By implementing some of these ideas, maybe you would cut and have some decent manufacturing costs for a small kitcar manufacture, but.....

With reference to ride height from the ground it's currently at 20cm. and it's like that of a normal car.
We tested it on speed bumps just to be sure and passed...

For a future project the enthusiast in me asks for a basic enclosed 2 seater with a single or V-twin engine with a vintage inspired design at a lowcost price, or go at the far end and design something very modern and extreme, but the final price would be almost prohibitive for most kitcar enthusiast and the current trend is for lowcost projects.

I believe that the Pembleton and Mev have taken over the JZR niche market and Triking and Blackjack are at the top end of the market, while all the others sit in between.

They're all very good products and are doing decently well, but who knows if in the future we will see a new threewheeler design...

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 15th March 08:44

[fuoriserie]

Martin A said:

The style is great, but it's as wide as an old Fiat 500 or Mini. Commuters need an enclosed stable scooter like the love child of a Lit C-1 and a Piaggio MP3. Produce that and you'll have plenty of customers I would imagine.

Thanks...
As with reference to dimensions, it's not so wide ( 1.350mm) but I agree with you that it's close to an old Fiat 500 and maybe something slightly smaller ( maybe 1150mm) might interest a few more.

Will see in the future what happens...I do have an extra chassis to play with....

[fuoriserie]

Martin A said:

I feel that it needs to be no more than 1 metre to be able to lane split as a commuter vehicle, ideally less. I'd see 800mm as a target. The Tercyclo chassis seems to be about that width but the suspension needs to be changed drastically to keep it narrow.

I agree with you that for a commuter vehicle 1.m. would be ideal but difficult...you're in Velomobile territory !...my current recumbent trike project is 84cm. wide. ( http://www.poderosacycles.com/)

The suspension would need re-designing for the new width and the chassis width is currently 65cm.

Maybe an electric pedal assist Velomobile is feasable on my recumbent trike chassis but the current Tercyclo would need re-engineering to fit the new brief

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Al very inforative and very interesting. I agree that MEV are very much around in this market, probably towards the affordable end and the Pembteton really is at the top end which 90 years ago was pioneered by the Morgan which IMO remains the most attractice three wheeler if distinctly unaffordable, currently. More work is definitely needed on the suspension geometry and chassis design but the cachet of the name and the layout and build quality is quite outstanding. The Morgan brand is stil pursued by enthusiasts and I hope always will be. Been a bit of a kerfuffle at Morgan with the sudden departure of Charles Morgan, but the brand is still rock soloed .

As a sometime Morgan three wheeler owner long long ago, I still regard the qualities of the cars as quite unique and exceptionally desirable.

Turning to the very interesting background to your latest posting on here I do wish you well in your efforts. I will not recount again, my Berkeley memories, good to see you are on the case and looking at the various possibilities. Personally I would suggest that a bigger, and therefore much more flexible, engine in such velocipedes, would be significantly better OTR. But every good wish to your efforts and most interesting and informative.

I am still after a Berkeley shell which I will no doubt find eventually at the right price. Rebuilt with all new suspension and a decent motor should be go pretty well ! Since I am now spending seven months a year in your Homeland, Italy, I am still swamped with the kit cars I have around. I think this year should allow me to sell a fair few and then onto the Berkeley project! Toodle Pip! Happy days!

Edited by Steffan on Sunday 15th March 12:37

Thanks Steffan ....

I still haven't decided which way to go yet, but I do have three different design concept renderings in front of me and the deciding factor will be the funds.....how much I can afford and have in my pocket ( very little really...).

Anyway if you're still in Italy by the time I'm finished with the prototype, you are very welcome anytime to stop by for a glass of wine and a long chat anytime...

Cheers
Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 15th March 20:46

[fuoriserie]

A few months ago I was having some fun sketching a new 2 seater BubbleCar threewheeler and the idea was to use a modern scooter engine donor with 16in. wheels....anyway it turned out be this very rough sketch...slightly inspired by an egg....

Cheers
Italo

[fuoriserie]

qdos said:

That looks barking mad Italo

Would get a lot of attention for sure

I agree with you...

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

qdos said:

That looks barking mad Italo

Would get a lot of attention for sure

I agree with you...

On a constructive note, on this very interesting project, Italo, is it possible to provide protection for the driver in the event of a contretomps OTR with another vehicle on the road? There is of course no legal requirement (I think) because such a vehicle would offer at least as much protection as there is on a motorcyclle. That design is excetionally forward looking and if the Panels could be made at reasonable cost, possibly by eemulating the Smart car approach to replacesble panels could those aims be met be over a tube steel undrpinning project?

I do like that design very much particularly fr many city dwellers. I think that as real potential. Well done, Italo!

Thank you ...

With reference to the protection , I had envisaged an inner steel rollcage and grp panels for the exterior...the initial design proposal I had in mind, was meant to be for a front engined V-twin Guzzi...something like a Triking with grp monocoque chassis and subframes at the front and rear.

I eventually changed to a rear mounted scooter engine and modified the design to suit the new engine position.

I believe that this design could have some potential if it was picked up my a major manufacture, but in the kitcar niche, it would have limited appeal, due to high manufacturing costs, especially the curved glass screen and doors.

I still think, that motorcycle engined threewheelers have and edge on potential sales to kitcar enthusiasts and very few of us might be interested in scooter based threewheelers.

I have some updated designs for a lowcost Isetta design proposal and a Messerchmitt Kabibroller , using modern scooter engines, but after some rough manufaturing costings, I've come to the conclusion that it woul put them to close to a motorcycle engined threewheeler and thus limiting their sales potential.

If someone finds a lowcost solution for chassis manufacturing, maybe sandwich pannels, like this TREV:

https://sites.google.com/site/trevipedia/

maybe the above projects might have a sales potential....

Who knows maybe things are changing and I haven't noticed but I still think that a Grinnall Scorpion has more appeal than a cabin scooter...personally I'm moving towards such a concept...

[fuoriserie]

An electric threewheeler prototype.

http://www.hyperdriveinnovation.com/news/art/19/el...

http://hyperdriveinnovation.com/images/editor/Pure...

http://www.hyperdrivetechnologies.co.uk/images/cas...

Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 23 September 11:41

[fuoriserie]

qdos said:

That's from a couple of years ago

A very interesting design project.