Discussion
i still maintain that a show with all the magazines and as many manufacturers involved in the organisation of it, is the way to go here, at least this way you have a guaranteed commitment from all party's with a known cost to all, three magazines to promote and advertise the event, and hopefully full support from the industry.
this may sound hypocritical from someone who has been absent from showing for a few years now but sometimes a big fall takes a while to get up from. but i see a bit of a vicious circle forming here, no shows=failing industry. failing industry=failing magazines. failing magazines= nowhere for manufacturers to advertise. so ultimately no shows,no mags,no manufacturers. i know in reality this probably wouldn't happen, so to ensure it doesn't get the industry working together for a change, come on den you know everyone in the trade, and you have the utmost respect from most of us in it
this may sound hypocritical from someone who has been absent from showing for a few years now but sometimes a big fall takes a while to get up from. but i see a bit of a vicious circle forming here, no shows=failing industry. failing industry=failing magazines. failing magazines= nowhere for manufacturers to advertise. so ultimately no shows,no mags,no manufacturers. i know in reality this probably wouldn't happen, so to ensure it doesn't get the industry working together for a change, come on den you know everyone in the trade, and you have the utmost respect from most of us in it
Racing8 said:
How about mallory park or silverstone on a not for profit basis ?????
The pot pays costs and all profits go to the charity.
How hard can it be
Lovely idea….. but…..The pot pays costs and all profits go to the charity.
How hard can it be
It costs circa £10,000 to hire such a circuit. Another £1,000,or so, for insurance. Plus wages on the top for marshals, first aiders, organisers, litter pickers, collection box handlers, etc. Then it will need to be advertised. Then staff need to get there (motor expenses) and accommodation (hotel expenses). The organiser would get his ear chewed if he didn’t spend another £500 on sign-posts. We’re talking well upwards of £15,000.
This kind of money isn’t going to be retrieved through collection boxes – is it?
And without proper exhibition facilities it wouldn’t come from the trade either.
I think it would be very hard – even impossible – sorry!
Den
Edited by DEN TANNER on Wednesday 28th September 12:55
As the person who brought the Sports and Kit Car Show to life in 1987 at Belle Vue Manchester and transferred to Bingley Hall, Stafford a year later after Belle Vue closed, I might become more involved in this debate.
However I am taking the Memsahib away for a few days as it is our 40th Wedding anniversary.
In the meantime I have only a couple of short comments - I have absolutely no intention of reviving this or any other kit car show. Everything has a life span and Stafford's has expired.
However I am taking the Memsahib away for a few days as it is our 40th Wedding anniversary.
In the meantime I have only a couple of short comments - I have absolutely no intention of reviving this or any other kit car show. Everything has a life span and Stafford's has expired.
Some of the ideas that stand out for me for me are certainly a more more collaborative unified approach to sponsoring and organising the shows, not only sharing the risk but the pooling of resourses in difficult times and the professional promotion of the industry as whole in a positive light.
Given the fairly static nature of the industry, interactivity and entertainment would be an important component also. test drives, demonstration runs, driving displays. technical workshops etc. If the show was track based why not have some 750 club demonstration runs or possible racing.
Why not link up with another magazine or company that promotes a complimentary automotive interest I can see clear similarities between PPC and the kitcar industry for example. Each would bring complimentary traders, exhibitors and would be of interest to all, as well as filling up half empty exhibition halls and appealing to a more broader group of enthusiasts.
I'm relatively new to the kitcar scene so am not sure whats done to encourage kitcar owners to shows, certainly this is an integral part of the show, for me one of the reasons for going is to look at the cars, get ideas, talk to the owners. Are there competitions and prizes for different categories of cars and best club stands etc. Though entry is free for kit car owners (not that common with other automotive shows) perhaps through offering VIP hospitality areas, serviced camping areas over and above a basic field etc, income can be generated.
Given the fairly static nature of the industry, interactivity and entertainment would be an important component also. test drives, demonstration runs, driving displays. technical workshops etc. If the show was track based why not have some 750 club demonstration runs or possible racing.
Why not link up with another magazine or company that promotes a complimentary automotive interest I can see clear similarities between PPC and the kitcar industry for example. Each would bring complimentary traders, exhibitors and would be of interest to all, as well as filling up half empty exhibition halls and appealing to a more broader group of enthusiasts.
I'm relatively new to the kitcar scene so am not sure whats done to encourage kitcar owners to shows, certainly this is an integral part of the show, for me one of the reasons for going is to look at the cars, get ideas, talk to the owners. Are there competitions and prizes for different categories of cars and best club stands etc. Though entry is free for kit car owners (not that common with other automotive shows) perhaps through offering VIP hospitality areas, serviced camping areas over and above a basic field etc, income can be generated.
Edited by B33FY on Wednesday 28th September 13:14
Every one seems to agree that the kit car market is a tough place to be at the moment. Lets face it it's tough everywhere.
I think there is lots of positive stuff going on though. I specifically mean the move from some manufactureres for single donor cheaper to build kits. Basically back to where the kit car scene came from. There are new donor cars out there to use ie MX5, BMW, Focus etc So not all doom and gloom, there is a way forward and a massive new market in terms of cars that are suitable for track. 10 years ago there were very few track days, now everyone is doing them!
As for the shows.
It's times like these where people have to pull together. As has been posted before without magazines, manufacturers, shows, parts suppliers the whole thing fails if one drops out.
Total Kitcars action days were a great idea, but didn't really work. Perhaps if a full show was to take place at a circuit and manufacturers booked in for a track day at the same time, then we would see better results. Possible to do? It will be expensive and difficult to schedule on a weekend.
Stoneleigh isn't what it used to be...... Maybe, maybe not. Rose coloured glasses? I do know that people and manufacturers come and go and yes there were fewer manufacturers in the last few years but also some new ones.
My plan?
Well i think Stoneleigh can and should continue as it is. Maybe with a few new attractions for the general public.
Other shows? Well I love the idea of Stafford as I am a nothern monkey. Is it far north enough? Is it too close to Stoneleigh? Detling and Stafford need to be combined with something else? Classic car show? Motorsport show? I know the kits always go down well at the NEC.
If other shows are going to continue everyone needs to pull together. Owners, publications, manufacturers etc. Lets have combined shows, not each magazine having a show. If everyone can't agree how things should be done, get a professional to organise it. Everyone advertises it, every owners club gets an invite, every forum, local press/TV.
What do we end up with?
3 big shows! 1 North, 1 South and Stoneleigh in the middle. Everyone goes to at least 2 and everyone is happy! Provide camping and some CLEAN showers and my Mrs might even come too! Well providing it's not in January!
I think there is lots of positive stuff going on though. I specifically mean the move from some manufactureres for single donor cheaper to build kits. Basically back to where the kit car scene came from. There are new donor cars out there to use ie MX5, BMW, Focus etc So not all doom and gloom, there is a way forward and a massive new market in terms of cars that are suitable for track. 10 years ago there were very few track days, now everyone is doing them!
As for the shows.
It's times like these where people have to pull together. As has been posted before without magazines, manufacturers, shows, parts suppliers the whole thing fails if one drops out.
Total Kitcars action days were a great idea, but didn't really work. Perhaps if a full show was to take place at a circuit and manufacturers booked in for a track day at the same time, then we would see better results. Possible to do? It will be expensive and difficult to schedule on a weekend.
Stoneleigh isn't what it used to be...... Maybe, maybe not. Rose coloured glasses? I do know that people and manufacturers come and go and yes there were fewer manufacturers in the last few years but also some new ones.
My plan?
Well i think Stoneleigh can and should continue as it is. Maybe with a few new attractions for the general public.
Other shows? Well I love the idea of Stafford as I am a nothern monkey. Is it far north enough? Is it too close to Stoneleigh? Detling and Stafford need to be combined with something else? Classic car show? Motorsport show? I know the kits always go down well at the NEC.
If other shows are going to continue everyone needs to pull together. Owners, publications, manufacturers etc. Lets have combined shows, not each magazine having a show. If everyone can't agree how things should be done, get a professional to organise it. Everyone advertises it, every owners club gets an invite, every forum, local press/TV.
What do we end up with?
3 big shows! 1 North, 1 South and Stoneleigh in the middle. Everyone goes to at least 2 and everyone is happy! Provide camping and some CLEAN showers and my Mrs might even come too! Well providing it's not in January!
rdodger said:
Provide camping and some CLEAN showers and my Mrs might even come too! Well providing it's not in January!
Pah. She is obviously a lightweight!Mrs Meeja would happily camp all year round (lots of thick fleeces!) But getting her to camp at a car show would be another challenge altogether!
Meeja said:
rdodger said:
Provide camping and some CLEAN showers and my Mrs might even come too! Well providing it's not in January!
Pah. She is obviously a lightweight!Mrs Meeja would happily camp all year round (lots of thick fleeces!) But getting her to camp at a car show would be another challenge altogether!
I think it's more to do with the fact it then becomes a 2 day car show!
DEN TANNER said:
Lovely idea….. but…..
It costs circa £10,000 to hire such a circuit. Another £1,000,or so, for insurance. Plus wages on the top for marshals, first aiders, organisers, litter pickers, collection box handlers, etc. Then it will need to be advertised. Then staff need to get there (motor expenses) and accommodation (hotel expenses). The organiser would get his ear chewed if he didn’t spend another £500 on sign-posts. We’re talking well upwards of £15,000.
This kind of money isn’t going to be retrieved through collection boxes – is it?
And without proper exhibition facilities it wouldn’t come from the trade either.
I think it would be very hard – even impossible – sorry!
Den
Interesting, do we know how many people turn up to a decent show, Mop's and kit car owners, could one assume 500 mops and 100 kit car owners. Could we assume thats because its for a charity the circuit hire is at cost. So thats £6K base costs.It costs circa £10,000 to hire such a circuit. Another £1,000,or so, for insurance. Plus wages on the top for marshals, first aiders, organisers, litter pickers, collection box handlers, etc. Then it will need to be advertised. Then staff need to get there (motor expenses) and accommodation (hotel expenses). The organiser would get his ear chewed if he didn’t spend another £500 on sign-posts. We’re talking well upwards of £15,000.
This kind of money isn’t going to be retrieved through collection boxes – is it?
And without proper exhibition facilities it wouldn’t come from the trade either.
I think it would be very hard – even impossible – sorry!
Den
Income is Mops @ £5 a head is £2500, 20 full track days at £80 a go , 50 laps @ £15 a go , demonstrator laps 100@ £15 . thats about £5,500 Plus food and stall concessions, plus other track days fee's. Get the caterham and westfield clubs involved and you could double those numbers easily.
But if you think its too hard, the it probably is.
Meeja said:
rdodger said:
Provide camping and some CLEAN showers and my Mrs might even come too! Well providing it's not in January!
Pah. She is obviously a lightweight!Mrs Meeja would happily camp all year round (lots of thick fleeces!) But getting her to camp at a car show would be another challenge altogether!
Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
Racing8 said:
Interesting, do we know how many people turn up to a decent show.
About 4 years ago, there was a thread on this forum discussing what kind of show was wanted.Sally Mitchell arranged exactly what was requested at Bruntingthorpe.
Use of track, manufacturer 'pits', accessory suppliers plots. I took Kit Car magazine (I didn't own Pilgrim at that time).
Only about 100 visitors attended.
She lost an awful lot of money. I'm talking £20K or more.
Goes to show that people don't necessarily know what they want.
Den
DEN TANNER said:
Adrian,
Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
Joking or not comments like that come from within and will not endear you to anyone, it has suddenly reminded me why I stopped buying your mag and perhaps acknowledging that people do learn and change, isn't such a sound belief after all.Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
B33FY said:
Joking or not comments like that come from within and will not endear you to anyone, it has suddenly reminded me why I stopped buying your mag and perhaps acknowledging that people do learn and change, isn't such a sound belief after all.
Come on Beefy.... you don't know me from Adam. Nobody sells as many kit cars as I have without a) respecting his clients and b) gaining the respect of his clients.Hang around a bit and you'll see my qualities shine through my demented humour (which is something else required in man that's sold as many kits as I have).
Den
B33FY said:
DEN TANNER said:
Adrian,
Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
Joking or not comments like that come from within and will not endear you to anyone, it has suddenly reminded me why I stopped buying your mag and perhaps acknowledging that people do learn and change, isn't such a sound belief after all.Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
B33FY said:
DEN TANNER said:
Adrian,
Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
Joking or not comments like that come from within and will not endear you to anyone, it has suddenly reminded me why I stopped buying your mag and perhaps acknowledging that people do learn and change, isn't such a sound belief after all.Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
I thought it was funny anyway...
Den Tanner is known for his irascible sense of humour. We all have to have something to offset the stress of business in a very difficult time economically.
Making the effort required to set up and run something like the Stafford show tales a lot of bottle. We have different ways of winding down. Humour is one of them. Keep it up Den.
At least you have a go at making Kit Cars.
So many sit on the side and criticise the efforts of others.
Making the effort required to set up and run something like the Stafford show tales a lot of bottle. We have different ways of winding down. Humour is one of them. Keep it up Den.
At least you have a go at making Kit Cars.
So many sit on the side and criticise the efforts of others.
I'd like to think of myself as possible the kind of target market that component car manufacturers may be looking for. Late twenties, settled down with some (not a lot) disposable income and a really deep love for anything automotive.
I'm going to chip in with a few points that I hope may be of interest or have relevance. Just a few random thoughts.
First question is, How would a manufacturer get me to part with my hard earned?
I really don't 'get' alot of the various niche shows that seem to take place (or used to) around the UK. Unless you are really determined to attend then you are on the backfoot against something like the Autosport at the NEC. Why aren't more kit car manufacturers attending? I know that Caterham and Westfield do for example but what about the rest? Surely the footfall figures alone would make it worth a punt? At the very least it would narrow the percieved gap between kit cars and more mainstream efforts. Basically, dedicated shows are a waste of money. If the big shows are too expensive the a solution needs to be thought of. I would have been very annoyed to travel to a show as described in by the OP.
Websites, where are the good ones? some of the manufacturer sites are pretty shoddy yet 99% of people will start there whilst doing a little research. Is it really that difficult to get some decent downloadable PDF's up or some good Youtube footage? Why am I having to rely on finding owners build threads etc. It would be better than ringing up companies and having to pay for a basic brochure. GD seem to have a good site and the footage of their T70 at the ring would sell that car to me instantly. A good example to follow.
Have any manufacturers considered offering a kit out on a loan basis to any of the big name magazines? Think Evo long term test etc. Think of the exposure that otherwise is restricted to the main kit car titles which lets face it don't have the same circulation figures.
I agree with other comments made about the saturation of the market especially where 7 style cars are concerned. It certainly will be survival of the fittest and I must admit that MEV are impressive by purposely offering something completely different to the norm. I guess the same criticism could be offered at Cobra replicas?
My concern now, in 2011 is where the heck you start to source some of the donor cars. The Sierra is gone 20 years and although a few are offering BMW or MX5 based kits the uptake on that is slow (my opinion, maybe right or wrong)
Manufacturers need to really start and look at future proofing their cars otherwise IVA and availability of older donors will naturally select what is about in 10 years.
I'm going to chip in with a few points that I hope may be of interest or have relevance. Just a few random thoughts.
First question is, How would a manufacturer get me to part with my hard earned?
I really don't 'get' alot of the various niche shows that seem to take place (or used to) around the UK. Unless you are really determined to attend then you are on the backfoot against something like the Autosport at the NEC. Why aren't more kit car manufacturers attending? I know that Caterham and Westfield do for example but what about the rest? Surely the footfall figures alone would make it worth a punt? At the very least it would narrow the percieved gap between kit cars and more mainstream efforts. Basically, dedicated shows are a waste of money. If the big shows are too expensive the a solution needs to be thought of. I would have been very annoyed to travel to a show as described in by the OP.
Websites, where are the good ones? some of the manufacturer sites are pretty shoddy yet 99% of people will start there whilst doing a little research. Is it really that difficult to get some decent downloadable PDF's up or some good Youtube footage? Why am I having to rely on finding owners build threads etc. It would be better than ringing up companies and having to pay for a basic brochure. GD seem to have a good site and the footage of their T70 at the ring would sell that car to me instantly. A good example to follow.
Have any manufacturers considered offering a kit out on a loan basis to any of the big name magazines? Think Evo long term test etc. Think of the exposure that otherwise is restricted to the main kit car titles which lets face it don't have the same circulation figures.
I agree with other comments made about the saturation of the market especially where 7 style cars are concerned. It certainly will be survival of the fittest and I must admit that MEV are impressive by purposely offering something completely different to the norm. I guess the same criticism could be offered at Cobra replicas?
My concern now, in 2011 is where the heck you start to source some of the donor cars. The Sierra is gone 20 years and although a few are offering BMW or MX5 based kits the uptake on that is slow (my opinion, maybe right or wrong)
Manufacturers need to really start and look at future proofing their cars otherwise IVA and availability of older donors will naturally select what is about in 10 years.
B33FY said:
DEN TANNER said:
Adrian,
Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
Joking or not comments like that come from within and will not endear you to anyone, it has suddenly reminded me why I stopped buying your mag and perhaps acknowledging that people do learn and change, isn't such a sound belief after all.Us show promoters would get confused by people in thick fleeces. What we need are thickies to fleece.
(Just joking - alright I'll pack up and go)
Den
It was quite clearly a joke, obviously you did not one that you found amusing. Fair enough. But please do not use that to goad Den into personality clashes on this forum.
If you have a problem with Den, may I suggest you take it up with him elsewhere?
I do not want any repeats of slanging matches in this forum.
Meeja
the whole point of my take on this, is to avoid any major financial loss as mentioned (sally mitchell) hitting one person or company, if all involved in the kit car market organised the show,shared the cost and the responsibility at least if it was a complete failure ,then we all take the blame, and i reckon it would cost each of us about the same as a reasonably sized stand at any other show.if enough people/companies get involved. and it would certainly avoid the type of comments made in the O/P.
however you are entitled to your opinion, i would rather this thread started with "went to stafford today, had a great day"
however you are entitled to your opinion, i would rather this thread started with "went to stafford today, had a great day"
Meeja said:
B33FY,
It was quite clearly a joke, obviously you did not one that you found amusing. Fair enough. But please do not use that to goad Den into personality clashes on this forum.
If you have a problem with Den, may I suggest you take it up with him elsewhere?
I do not want any repeats of slanging matches in this forum.
Meeja
Seconded, what we need is constructive debate, not slanging matches, someone obviously has a serious humour deficiency! It was quite clearly a joke, obviously you did not one that you found amusing. Fair enough. But please do not use that to goad Den into personality clashes on this forum.
If you have a problem with Den, may I suggest you take it up with him elsewhere?
I do not want any repeats of slanging matches in this forum.
Meeja
Re the figures discussed above, surely 500 MOP would be very low? (ignoring probs such as the Sally Mitchell episode discussed above) in which case all other figures would change correspondingly. I like the idea of all 3 kitcar mags getting together & adding PPC could make a massive difference, would there also be a posibility of adding a bikers element to the show perhaps, bike shows always appear to be well attended (Den, would thickies in leathers be ok instead of fleeces?) & perhaps the Custom (such as it is) or Retro Ford, Max Power, Fast & Furious guys etc., anything really to increase bums on seats (or rather off them & walking around!)
I think the idea of being able to demo cars on track has to be good, after all many manufacturers happily pay for track days so giving them one that certainly can't be argued about by the taxman has to be good too! Personally whilst I am well aware that I am a minnow (no, possibly more like a guppy - & a small one at that!) in manufacturers circles, nevertheless I know very well there are many people who would be very happy to pay for a run in a Furore F1!!! & I also enjoy the experience of demoing the car!
Re shows such as the Autosport show or perhaps Goodwood FoS, yes they may be expensive, but if it introduces your car to a new audience (& I, for one , find more people wanting finished cars than kits nowadays) then perhaps that's the way to go.
Den, on a different note, what do you think to the idea of the kitcar mags (jointly) renting a substantial chunk of Autosport floorspace & subletting single or double car areas off to individual manufacturers? (At least some manufacturers would commit funds by way of a deposit to back the mags & ensure they weren't left holding the baby as it were) I am very much in agreement that no shows = no punters = no mags = certainly a very much diminished pool of manufacturers who are then much more open to attack from the EU etc.
Edited to say, you don't need Mallory or Silverstone, just an easily accessible airfield type venue would do just as well & cost probably a third as much - plus if it's cones rather than armco it needs less marshalls & chances of accidents/damage/frightened punters are substantially reduced!
Edited by Russ Bost on Wednesday 28th September 22:04
Edited by Russ Bost on Thursday 29th September 08:18
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