Future Middy Coupe Locost Design
Discussion
seansverige said:
Don't get me wrong: just like Fox Mulder, I want to believe - but I think it's a big ask.
Even if you went the route of reviving the Nova, you'd save on big ticket items like bodywork, but there's still a tonne of detail development to be done, and then a lot of fettling / testing - unless your first customers are also beta-testers
Key to this dicussion is the fact that it's turn key (no pun intended), let's say the potential market for a £12k coupe is 30k a year in UK, and the £25k coupe market is 5k, and even if the IVA doesn't have the 500 unit ceiling of the SVA, we're talking about working to IVA rules, correct? So pretty small volume. As a businessman what would you do: try to satisfy a fraction of the £12k market at minimal profit, or a larger proportion (though still small) of the £20k market at a higher profit? You could even use the same vehicle: having gone to the hassle of developing a half decent coupe, using a beefier drive train to bump up performance to justify the price is a relatively small step and a well worn path.
When we talk about the Murray, I envisage that to be a 'proper' car like the Smart Roadster, i.e. one you could run as your only transport (if it weren't for that feckin' gearbox). Given that the T25 is rear engined (given it's overhangs I think we can read that as mid-engined here), and a intended to be mass market, he'd be an idiot not to leverage that with respect to his coupe, and clearly he's not.
I agree with your points but more than reviving the Nova I would use its roof/door design to work on a new design.Even if you went the route of reviving the Nova, you'd save on big ticket items like bodywork, but there's still a tonne of detail development to be done, and then a lot of fettling / testing - unless your first customers are also beta-testers
Key to this dicussion is the fact that it's turn key (no pun intended), let's say the potential market for a £12k coupe is 30k a year in UK, and the £25k coupe market is 5k, and even if the IVA doesn't have the 500 unit ceiling of the SVA, we're talking about working to IVA rules, correct? So pretty small volume. As a businessman what would you do: try to satisfy a fraction of the £12k market at minimal profit, or a larger proportion (though still small) of the £20k market at a higher profit? You could even use the same vehicle: having gone to the hassle of developing a half decent coupe, using a beefier drive train to bump up performance to justify the price is a relatively small step and a well worn path.
When we talk about the Murray, I envisage that to be a 'proper' car like the Smart Roadster, i.e. one you could run as your only transport (if it weren't for that feckin' gearbox). Given that the T25 is rear engined (given it's overhangs I think we can read that as mid-engined here), and a intended to be mass market, he'd be an idiot not to leverage that with respect to his coupe, and clearly he's not.
As you say the exo sportscar makes more sense but I still think that you could try to mix a coupe with an exo.....but I'm still working on the mix.....
The Murray concept uses the old Samrt fourtwo engine......I wonder if he had the gearbox modified....
That engine and drivetrain would make for a nice and compact unit to use for a mid-engine kit,but heard quite a few horror stories on realiability not being up to current standars....but Michalak is using it in their C7
http://www.thec7.co.uk/michalak_c7.ht
I wouldn't mind trying a smart powered kit just to get an idea on the engine and gearbox....
Edited by fuoriserie on Tuesday 29th June 17:09
fuoriserie said:
The Murray concept uses the old Samrt fourtwo engine......I wonder if he had the gearbox modified....
I've only seen that he was planning a small sportscar and had criticised the Elise but hadn't seen much more - got a link? As far as the gearbox goes, apparently there is a software fix but IIRC weirdly it was only for post '08 or 09 cars.I have seen the Michalak (bit odd looking) and know it's Smart based, will have a proper read...
EFS
Edited by seansverige on Tuesday 29th June 18:45
The gearbox software was only for American ForTwo's which have a different gear selector, with the conventional automatic PRND and +- for manual shifting.
The ForTwos here have +- to the left of the gate, with N and R on the right, more like a 'tiptronic' manual selector.
http://uk.smart.com/smart-fortwo-smart-fortwo-coup...
They can both shift manually with the +-, or be fully auto.
The ForTwos here have +- to the left of the gate, with N and R on the right, more like a 'tiptronic' manual selector.
http://uk.smart.com/smart-fortwo-smart-fortwo-coup...
They can both shift manually with the +-, or be fully auto.
seansverige said:
fuoriserie said:
The Murray concept uses the old Samrt fourtwo engine......I wonder if he had the gearbox modified....
I've only seen that he was planning a small sportscar and had criticised the Elise but hadn't seen much more - got a link? As far as the gearbox goes, apparently there is a software fix but IIRC weirdly it was only for post '08 or 09 cars.I have seen the Michalak (bit odd looking) and know it's Smart based, will have a proper read...
EFS
Edited by seansverige on Tuesday 29th June 18:45
http://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/pm-istream.php
The Smabug is the other kit based on the Smart:
http://www.car-concepte.de/en/smabug.htm
Can't find the link but will look for the info on the engine....good to know that you can fix the gearbox, but the relaibility of the engine would still be a problem, in particular with the Mk1 models.....
I've just watched the video on the Smabug site. Its in German so I've got no idea what they were saying, but it looks like seats can be moved around or taken out to be a 1 or 2 seater, and the steering, gearstick and pedal box can be moved across the car to a left, right or central driving position. I know there's no mechanical link from a Smart gearstick to the engine, but how the hell do you make a steering rack that slides from one side of the car to the other!! 
ajprice said:
I've just watched the video on the Smabug site. Its in German so I've got no idea what they were saying, but it looks like seats can be moved around or taken out to be a 1 or 2 seater, and the steering, gearstick and pedal box can be moved across the car to a left, right or central driving position. I know there's no mechanical link from a Smart gearstick to the engine, but how the hell do you make a steering rack that slides from one side of the car to the other!!
You could have fully electronic steering, in many terms, this would prevent a lot of headaches as instead of making room for a column and rack you can just have a trigger and a motor with a bit of wire. You need a motor and trigger anyway for power steering so it makes a lot of sense just to get rid of the column all together. This allows the flexibility and allows a little more interior space. I'm surprised it hasn't been done before.I had read about the Ikara a few years ago in an old issue of Car Styling magazine but there is a website now:
http://www.theikaraproject.com/
Isn't this an interesting mid-engine Targa/Coupe concept...... maybe a locost design ?
http://www.theikaraproject.com/
Isn't this an interesting mid-engine Targa/Coupe concept...... maybe a locost design ?
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 30th June 12:48
Davi said:
age is no excuse for that I'm afraid LOL
True.....but I'm sure that he was following the design trend of that era, the Wedge........remember the Aston Martin Bull dog? the Esprit the TVR Tasmin and many more ??I like the simplicity of the concept, but the design would need a restyle....
fuoriserie said:
Davi said:
age is no excuse for that I'm afraid LOL
True.....but I'm sure that he was following the design trend of that era, the Wedge........remember the Aston Martin Bull dog? the Esprit the TVR Tasmin and many more ??I like the simplicity of the concept, but the design would need a restyle....
fuoriserie said:
Maybe it's not a lowcost project but has anybody done a mid-engine kit with a BMW series 3 or 5 engine in the past ?
This thought came about yesterday while I was at a scrapyard looking for parts and saw so many of these cars being scrapped.....
BMWs are rear wheel drive. This is not going to be ideal for a mid engine set up with the engine in the back. Ideally you are looking for a longitudinal engine with a transaxle gearbox such as found in Audis as per the DerondaThis thought came about yesterday while I was at a scrapyard looking for parts and saw so many of these cars being scrapped.....
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