Single seaters
Discussion
Not sure about any other petrol heads but i would love a single seater for the road. There is the BAC Mono, a lot of money. There was the kit the roadrunner R1, no longer available. The RCR Nemesis from US, very nice but a lot of expence to get it to UK. Ford may do it with their FF1 but that will cost. As far as i can i can see they are made in France by Mygale, they have 2012 race version ready to go for 43000 euro. Then there is conversion to road spec plus taxes.
Just wondered if there is anyone out there who had concidered using a Formular Ford car from 80's or 90's and converting to road usage. It cant be that hard to do but how hard would it be to get it through the SVA. There are lots of 1600 Formular Ford cars about on various web sites and not to bad a a price. There are quite a lot of nice Van Deimens about
Any thoughts on this
Just wondered if there is anyone out there who had concidered using a Formular Ford car from 80's or 90's and converting to road usage. It cant be that hard to do but how hard would it be to get it through the SVA. There are lots of 1600 Formular Ford cars about on various web sites and not to bad a a price. There are quite a lot of nice Van Deimens about
Any thoughts on this
The BAC Mono is just ludicrously expensive, for a spaceframe chassis car.
A few single seater formula cars have been converted to road use over the years, but it's often not as straightforward as you might expect, because the suspension geometry frequently doesn't allow enough compliance for road use (ie. very limited range of bump and droop movement), so they're compromised on anything but the smoothest road surfaces.
I got a fair way along with designing a Lotus 27-style monocoque single seater as an exercise in creating the lightest possible road-legal car, but abandoned it because my needs and interests changed and I didn't think there'd be a realistic market for it. Gordon Murray wanted to design the Rocket as a single seater, but was persuaded otherwise by Chris Craft, for the same reason.
I've seen a few people over the years saying how they would love a single-seater for teh road, but I wonder how many would translate into genuine sales?
A few single seater formula cars have been converted to road use over the years, but it's often not as straightforward as you might expect, because the suspension geometry frequently doesn't allow enough compliance for road use (ie. very limited range of bump and droop movement), so they're compromised on anything but the smoothest road surfaces.
I got a fair way along with designing a Lotus 27-style monocoque single seater as an exercise in creating the lightest possible road-legal car, but abandoned it because my needs and interests changed and I didn't think there'd be a realistic market for it. Gordon Murray wanted to design the Rocket as a single seater, but was persuaded otherwise by Chris Craft, for the same reason.
I've seen a few people over the years saying how they would love a single-seater for teh road, but I wonder how many would translate into genuine sales?
MEV ATOMIC not a conventional single seater but ie the furoe kit, but one with the engine next to you could build a top spec version for 10k
http://www.roadtrackrace.co.uk/rtr_atomic.html
http://www.roadtrackrace.co.uk/rtr_atomic.html
I thought the SR1 was no longer made, tho' I think they still support existing owners with parts?
When I built the first Furore, which was only ever intended for me, never meant to put it into production, I had loads of enquiries, some asking for single seater, some wanting 2 (as I had originally done). Whenever something like the Rocket or Fords high profile Formula Ford on the road comes around there are lots of people saying they want one, but I don't believe when Martin Keenan did the original MK Sprint (forerunner of the roadrunner) that he had queues of customers for it, unfortunately masses of enquiries don't translate into masses of sales. My whole concept was that if I built it as a single seater then I was the only one who could enjoy it, maybe ok if you have a bunch of mates all with similar cars & you can go off for a hoon together, but organising more than a couple or 3 cars to get together at any one time never seems to be easy & hooning in a bunch is almost certainly going to end in tears one way or another. At least with 2 seats you can scare a mate to death without having to get yourself into dangerous situations!
I could produce the Furore as a single seater very easily, the second seat area is pretty much an extension of the front & the chassis could easily be built without that section, but then you're stuck with what to do with the bodywork which is now going to need a lot of re-working to fit & I honestly don't think there is much of a market for a single seater, except perhaps something like a 60's style cigar tube F1, but personally I don't know how happy I'd be with that level of crash protection on the road.
If you're looking at putting a Formula Ford on the road then my strong advice would be DON'T (I've done it, so I speak from experience!). By the time you've changed everything you need to for IVA (which is a LOT more than you might think) & then changed all the suspension to give more than a 1" ground clearance it would have been cheaper to start from scratch.
If it's something you really want to do then it can certainly be done, but not particularly easily or cheaply, I have a customers car for sale relatively cheaply & I believe Mark at Totalheadturners has a FF2000 single seater which is road registered, but quite a lot more money (if he still has it)
When I built the first Furore, which was only ever intended for me, never meant to put it into production, I had loads of enquiries, some asking for single seater, some wanting 2 (as I had originally done). Whenever something like the Rocket or Fords high profile Formula Ford on the road comes around there are lots of people saying they want one, but I don't believe when Martin Keenan did the original MK Sprint (forerunner of the roadrunner) that he had queues of customers for it, unfortunately masses of enquiries don't translate into masses of sales. My whole concept was that if I built it as a single seater then I was the only one who could enjoy it, maybe ok if you have a bunch of mates all with similar cars & you can go off for a hoon together, but organising more than a couple or 3 cars to get together at any one time never seems to be easy & hooning in a bunch is almost certainly going to end in tears one way or another. At least with 2 seats you can scare a mate to death without having to get yourself into dangerous situations!
I could produce the Furore as a single seater very easily, the second seat area is pretty much an extension of the front & the chassis could easily be built without that section, but then you're stuck with what to do with the bodywork which is now going to need a lot of re-working to fit & I honestly don't think there is much of a market for a single seater, except perhaps something like a 60's style cigar tube F1, but personally I don't know how happy I'd be with that level of crash protection on the road.
If you're looking at putting a Formula Ford on the road then my strong advice would be DON'T (I've done it, so I speak from experience!). By the time you've changed everything you need to for IVA (which is a LOT more than you might think) & then changed all the suspension to give more than a 1" ground clearance it would have been cheaper to start from scratch.
If it's something you really want to do then it can certainly be done, but not particularly easily or cheaply, I have a customers car for sale relatively cheaply & I believe Mark at Totalheadturners has a FF2000 single seater which is road registered, but quite a lot more money (if he still has it)
Did anyone every get a Tiger HSS road legal ? These sometimes come up for sales SH at significantly less than the price to build.
http://www.tigerracing.com/era-hss.php
http://www.motorsportads.com/championships-etc/rac...
two for sale here - http://www.sovereigncarsales.co.uk/General_gridpos... and http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C367871
Another suggestion, if you want the single seater experience but with the option for others to join you on occasions is to look at these three seaters with the drivers seat in a central position -
Aeon GT3 - http://www.aeonsportscars.com/showroom/gt3spider.p...
SDR Storm (Aprilia bike engine or Scooby flat 4 engines) - http://sdrsportscars.co.uk/home.html
Both have had pretty good reviews in the past.
Or if you want to dream there is the "new" Vanwall GPR v12 - love the idea of Tyre Tread mud guards to make it look open wheeled. Looks like the latest version has options for i4, v8 and v12 engines, I'd forego the handling of the i4 for the sound of the v12, even better I expect if you threw them a bundle of cash they could put an M5 V10 in the front, the sound form that would be epic.
http://cars.uk.msn.com/features/the-10-best-f1-ins...
http://www.vanwallcars.com/
http://www.tigerracing.com/era-hss.php
http://www.motorsportads.com/championships-etc/rac...
two for sale here - http://www.sovereigncarsales.co.uk/General_gridpos... and http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C367871
Another suggestion, if you want the single seater experience but with the option for others to join you on occasions is to look at these three seaters with the drivers seat in a central position -
Aeon GT3 - http://www.aeonsportscars.com/showroom/gt3spider.p...
SDR Storm (Aprilia bike engine or Scooby flat 4 engines) - http://sdrsportscars.co.uk/home.html
Both have had pretty good reviews in the past.
Or if you want to dream there is the "new" Vanwall GPR v12 - love the idea of Tyre Tread mud guards to make it look open wheeled. Looks like the latest version has options for i4, v8 and v12 engines, I'd forego the handling of the i4 for the sound of the v12, even better I expect if you threw them a bundle of cash they could put an M5 V10 in the front, the sound form that would be epic.
http://cars.uk.msn.com/features/the-10-best-f1-ins...
http://www.vanwallcars.com/
There is also the Speads RS08, single seater but a full body.
http://www.speads.com.au/RS08-Images.php
http://www.speads.com.au/RS08-Images.php
Lots of good chat on this.
I like to drive on my own so hooning with mates is out (william the friendless)
Formular fords from the 90s or there abouts are good buys. If you look at the chassis they are very well made to conform to FIA standards, and they are usualy high standards. I love the idea of using a crossflow but dont think you could get one of those through gas testing. Later spec cars have the zetec then the durotec and i dont think there would be a problem with that. The gearbox would be a hewland 4speed and reverse so no problems with that. Dashboard could be the Dash 2, that is ok for road use. Hand brake could be done with Hi Spec calipets with Link handbrake caliper. Lights etc no problem, sounds like fun. Raise suspention to abut 120mm (usual set at about 40mm). It would change roadholding but you would have to live with that one. These have fully adjustable rose jointed suspention with adjustable shocks, lots to play with. There would always be problems but we are car men that is what we do.
This idea appeals to me and after all as petrol heads dont we all love the idea of driving a real race car. These are real race cars and built to very high standards
I like to drive on my own so hooning with mates is out (william the friendless)
Formular fords from the 90s or there abouts are good buys. If you look at the chassis they are very well made to conform to FIA standards, and they are usualy high standards. I love the idea of using a crossflow but dont think you could get one of those through gas testing. Later spec cars have the zetec then the durotec and i dont think there would be a problem with that. The gearbox would be a hewland 4speed and reverse so no problems with that. Dashboard could be the Dash 2, that is ok for road use. Hand brake could be done with Hi Spec calipets with Link handbrake caliper. Lights etc no problem, sounds like fun. Raise suspention to abut 120mm (usual set at about 40mm). It would change roadholding but you would have to live with that one. These have fully adjustable rose jointed suspention with adjustable shocks, lots to play with. There would always be problems but we are car men that is what we do.
This idea appeals to me and after all as petrol heads dont we all love the idea of driving a real race car. These are real race cars and built to very high standards
KMF said:
Lots of good chat on this.
I like to drive on my own so hooning with mates is out (william the friendless)
Formular fords from the 90s or there abouts are good buys. If you look at the chassis they are very well made to conform to FIA standards, and they are usualy high standards. I love the idea of using a crossflow but dont think you could get one of those through gas testing. Later spec cars have the zetec then the durotec and i dont think there would be a problem with that. The gearbox would be a hewland 4speed and reverse so no problems with that. Dashboard could be the Dash 2, that is ok for road use. Hand brake could be done with Hi Spec calipets with Link handbrake caliper. Lights etc no problem, sounds like fun. Raise suspention to abut 120mm (usual set at about 40mm). It would change roadholding but you would have to live with that one. These have fully adjustable rose jointed suspention with adjustable shocks, lots to play with. There would always be problems but we are car men that is what we do.
This idea appeals to me and after all as petrol heads dont we all love the idea of driving a real race car. These are real race cars and built to very high standards
II like to drive on my own so hooning with mates is out (william the friendless)
Formular fords from the 90s or there abouts are good buys. If you look at the chassis they are very well made to conform to FIA standards, and they are usualy high standards. I love the idea of using a crossflow but dont think you could get one of those through gas testing. Later spec cars have the zetec then the durotec and i dont think there would be a problem with that. The gearbox would be a hewland 4speed and reverse so no problems with that. Dashboard could be the Dash 2, that is ok for road use. Hand brake could be done with Hi Spec calipets with Link handbrake caliper. Lights etc no problem, sounds like fun. Raise suspention to abut 120mm (usual set at about 40mm). It would change roadholding but you would have to live with that one. These have fully adjustable rose jointed suspention with adjustable shocks, lots to play with. There would always be problems but we are car men that is what we do.
This idea appeals to me and after all as petrol heads dont we all love the idea of driving a real race car. These are real race cars and built to very high standards
V
A
nightmare...
, and no you can't afford one 
KMF said:
Raise suspension to about 120mm (usual set at about 40mm).... These have fully adjustable rose jointed suspension with adjustable shocks, lots to play with.
Sounds easy, doesn't it?You do have to remember, though, that the physical packaging of the suspension will have been designed to accommodate just enough stroke on the shock to deliver slightly less than that 40mm of compression travel before it hits the bump stops to prevent the car bottoming (and a similarly very limited amount of droop travel).
I know from recent and painful experience that trying to make a sexy 'Formula car'-style, suspension set-up using pushrods and bellcranks work properly with the sort of travel you need for a road car, with sensible motion ratios on the dampers, isn't easy even when you have a clean sheet of paper, never mind adapting an existing 'race specification' design.
I have already said "If you're looking at putting a Formula Ford on the road then my strong advice would be DON'T (I've done it, so I speak from experience!). By the time you've changed everything you need to for IVA (which is a LOT more than you might think) & then changed all the suspension to give more than a 1" ground clearance it would have been cheaper to start from scratch."
Incidentally an old Kent would be far easier to get thro' IVA if you're doing so as a private individual as it is pre CAT requirements
The list of what you would probably need to change starts with (but certainly won't end here):-
For IVA:-
Handbrake (lever, cables, calipers)
Steering column
Steering wheel
Steering wheel hub
Brake bias adjustment removed
Lights, inc indicators brake lights, fog light headlights etc
Switchgear for above
Wiring for above
Warning lights for above
Speedometer
Seat belt mounts (will almost certainly be too low)
Fuel filler & possibly fuel tank position also possibly fuel hoses
Rack boots
Mudguards
Sharp edges (have fun with that one!) - if you have no screen you'll lose the exempt area behind the steering wheel
Exhaust (+CAT if going for later engine & possibly therefore management system/ignition/fuelling if it won't accomodate a CAT)
Reflectors
Horn
Tyres
No. plate mounting position & light
There are a host of other "maybe" issues like pedal box/master cylinders or reservoirs, routing of fuel/brake lines, wiring etc - requirements for IVA are very specific & bear no relation to FIA rules & what is considered suitable & safe for the track, also visibility of speedo & controls can be an issue as can actually finding room to mount a handbrake - race car cockpits are VERY tight
Not being silly, but have you checked you'll fit a FF cockpit? - many "average" blokes would struggle!
After all the above DVLA will then give it a Q plate as there's nothing age related - this may or may not bother you, but could certainly affect resale value
For sensible use on the road:-
Raise ride height - YOU WILL NOT DO THIS WITH ADJUSTMENT ON THE SUSPENSION ALONE PLEASE LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING!!!!!
Change steering rack - race racks are horrid on the road - been there done that!
Seat - might be fine for a blast to a local meet, not so good when you have a visit to a show 100 miles away
Fuel tank unless you want to hop between service stations every 50 miles or so
Fuel sender unit - kinda handy to know when the jungle juice is going to run out
Probably additional cooling/fan etc FF's aren't designed to sit in traffic jams
Above I have covered most of the major points, I'm bound to have forgotten some. Please don't think I'm just being negative, I'm most certainly not, I would love to see more radical styled cars on the road, 7's & Cobras are plain boring, but don't wander into this with your eyes shut, you could be opening up a large money pit. It's obvious (not being rude) that you don't fully understand all the nuances of IVA or the issues with suspension/ground clearance, I would do a LOT more research before diving in.
If you want to give me a ring & pick my brain (what little of it is left) you're welcome to do so 07905 879407 at any sensible time, as said I have done the FF on the road thing & lots of IVA experience with formula style cars
Incidentally an old Kent would be far easier to get thro' IVA if you're doing so as a private individual as it is pre CAT requirements
The list of what you would probably need to change starts with (but certainly won't end here):-
For IVA:-
Handbrake (lever, cables, calipers)
Steering column
Steering wheel
Steering wheel hub
Brake bias adjustment removed
Lights, inc indicators brake lights, fog light headlights etc
Switchgear for above
Wiring for above
Warning lights for above
Speedometer
Seat belt mounts (will almost certainly be too low)
Fuel filler & possibly fuel tank position also possibly fuel hoses
Rack boots
Mudguards
Sharp edges (have fun with that one!) - if you have no screen you'll lose the exempt area behind the steering wheel
Exhaust (+CAT if going for later engine & possibly therefore management system/ignition/fuelling if it won't accomodate a CAT)
Reflectors
Horn
Tyres
No. plate mounting position & light
There are a host of other "maybe" issues like pedal box/master cylinders or reservoirs, routing of fuel/brake lines, wiring etc - requirements for IVA are very specific & bear no relation to FIA rules & what is considered suitable & safe for the track, also visibility of speedo & controls can be an issue as can actually finding room to mount a handbrake - race car cockpits are VERY tight
Not being silly, but have you checked you'll fit a FF cockpit? - many "average" blokes would struggle!
After all the above DVLA will then give it a Q plate as there's nothing age related - this may or may not bother you, but could certainly affect resale value
For sensible use on the road:-
Raise ride height - YOU WILL NOT DO THIS WITH ADJUSTMENT ON THE SUSPENSION ALONE PLEASE LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING!!!!!
Change steering rack - race racks are horrid on the road - been there done that!
Seat - might be fine for a blast to a local meet, not so good when you have a visit to a show 100 miles away
Fuel tank unless you want to hop between service stations every 50 miles or so
Fuel sender unit - kinda handy to know when the jungle juice is going to run out
Probably additional cooling/fan etc FF's aren't designed to sit in traffic jams
Above I have covered most of the major points, I'm bound to have forgotten some. Please don't think I'm just being negative, I'm most certainly not, I would love to see more radical styled cars on the road, 7's & Cobras are plain boring, but don't wander into this with your eyes shut, you could be opening up a large money pit. It's obvious (not being rude) that you don't fully understand all the nuances of IVA or the issues with suspension/ground clearance, I would do a LOT more research before diving in.
If you want to give me a ring & pick my brain (what little of it is left) you're welcome to do so 07905 879407 at any sensible time, as said I have done the FF on the road thing & lots of IVA experience with formula style cars
jeffw said:
the Palatov website said:
...Being highly optimized for the track, the D4 is not suitable for the street...
I guess the question remains as to whether there would be a genuine and worthwhile market for a single seater that had been designed and optimised for street use from the outset?There's been a lot of enthusiasm for the recent Ford concept, but how much of it could be translated into actual sales, if a car was made available at a sensible price? Maybe we're being pessimistic... the BAC Mono seems to be doing at least OK, so far, despite being very costly?
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