Big power Westfield build
Discussion
Evening all,
I have a general engine build thread running in the technical section but wanted to run an idea ref radiator mounting past the combined knowledge of peeps here.
The engine is a turbo YB with a power target of 450-500bhp with the emphasis on response and reliability. With that in mind I have removed chargecooler and engine rad I was using last year and am going to air to air intercooler mounted at the front. It`s an 18x12x4.5" so quite thick and with end tanks will fill nosecone.
I want to remove the engine radiator to the rear of the car just behind the roll cage in the airflow. This way I can fit a full size 50mm thick cosworth radiator instead of the major compromise of a nosecone radiator. Somehow doubling the power of the engine (and more) and seriously reducing the frontal area of the rad no matter what you did re ducting etc, never rang true to me.
The rad in the roll over part of the cage at the rear will see clean airflow and not be subject to the low pressure you can get at the very rear of the car.
Has anyone done this before? Any advice? Questions are will I need a supplemental water pump? Any clues on plumbing?
Am I mad?
I have a general engine build thread running in the technical section but wanted to run an idea ref radiator mounting past the combined knowledge of peeps here.
The engine is a turbo YB with a power target of 450-500bhp with the emphasis on response and reliability. With that in mind I have removed chargecooler and engine rad I was using last year and am going to air to air intercooler mounted at the front. It`s an 18x12x4.5" so quite thick and with end tanks will fill nosecone.
I want to remove the engine radiator to the rear of the car just behind the roll cage in the airflow. This way I can fit a full size 50mm thick cosworth radiator instead of the major compromise of a nosecone radiator. Somehow doubling the power of the engine (and more) and seriously reducing the frontal area of the rad no matter what you did re ducting etc, never rang true to me.
The rad in the roll over part of the cage at the rear will see clean airflow and not be subject to the low pressure you can get at the very rear of the car.
Has anyone done this before? Any advice? Questions are will I need a supplemental water pump? Any clues on plumbing?
Am I mad?
That is exactly what I mean but obviously in a Westy there is no bodywork there.
The rad will fit perfectly in the rear roll bar.
I`ve actually just bought a full roll cage but the idea is the same. I will probably sit the rad 4-5 inches away from supports behind rear of the seats and duct it in a way that if it did spring a leak it wouldn't leak on me!
The rad will fit perfectly in the rear roll bar.
I`ve actually just bought a full roll cage but the idea is the same. I will probably sit the rad 4-5 inches away from supports behind rear of the seats and duct it in a way that if it did spring a leak it wouldn't leak on me!
I`ve had some contact with the owner of that DAX. He was experiencing some overheating "issues" on track.
I`m going to buy an el cheapo ebay cossie rad to do some experimenting.
I`ve been doing quite a lot of research and it seems the ram-air effect is very important in radiators and they also don`t like being sloped........unless you have the rad constructed that way, i.e water tubes at 45 degrees like this: http://www.ahfabrications.com/information.php?info...
I don`t want to compromise air flow and just have two massive fans constantly running.
With regard to aerodynamic drag, I may sit the bottom of the rad just below boot line and duct air out the rear to keep frontal surface area more optimal. Westie`s have such poor aerodynamic performance anyway that if I get great cooling on track and on the road and the trade off is drag...........the car is meant to be a 40-130ish monster.
twin Side pods overcomplicates things for me, Pete at Spec R suggested the same but had to concede this would work and was fairly simple.
I`m going to buy an el cheapo ebay cossie rad to do some experimenting.
I`ve been doing quite a lot of research and it seems the ram-air effect is very important in radiators and they also don`t like being sloped........unless you have the rad constructed that way, i.e water tubes at 45 degrees like this: http://www.ahfabrications.com/information.php?info...
I don`t want to compromise air flow and just have two massive fans constantly running.
With regard to aerodynamic drag, I may sit the bottom of the rad just below boot line and duct air out the rear to keep frontal surface area more optimal. Westie`s have such poor aerodynamic performance anyway that if I get great cooling on track and on the road and the trade off is drag...........the car is meant to be a 40-130ish monster.
twin Side pods overcomplicates things for me, Pete at Spec R suggested the same but had to concede this would work and was fairly simple.
Paul Drawmer said:
Don't forget that the water pipes will take a fair bit of space, and that they will radiate a lot of heat, even in an open Westie, it will toast you on most days if the plumbing is internal. If you run them external, then they will be vulnerable unless they're tucked up rather near the propshaft.
Will be running them through the tunnel with heat shielding.Mr MXT said:
Been following this since you bought it, would be great to see it back on the road!
I'm with elliot, having the rad horizontal with ducting seems the best idea. I know space is limited under the boot cover, so why not put it higher than the current boot cover and box it in?
Vertically against the back of the roll bar seems like it would act as a huge windbreak - Would that be enough alter the handling balance at high speed?
The option to consider - have you got any room for a twin rad set up, one each side?
Might be worth asking on WSCC too, those guys usually come up with some good ideas.
It`s been off the road a while now! I have managed about 3000 miles since I bought it, not a lot! It was going very well until the last incident. The new engine is being built to a 650bhp plus spec and turned down for reliability.I'm with elliot, having the rad horizontal with ducting seems the best idea. I know space is limited under the boot cover, so why not put it higher than the current boot cover and box it in?
Vertically against the back of the roll bar seems like it would act as a huge windbreak - Would that be enough alter the handling balance at high speed?
The option to consider - have you got any room for a twin rad set up, one each side?
Might be worth asking on WSCC too, those guys usually come up with some good ideas.
I`ve been trying to re-sign up for WSCC membership but can`t seem to get hold of anyone.
chuntington101 said:
There are loads of rads out there that are angled. Even production cars like the GM C7 (although not a good example as they over heat). I don't even think F1 cars use that style of angled rad!
I can assure you they do! in F1 they will tilt a radiator to the rear and to the side and then manufacture the water channels to suit.Be interesting to find that out!
Car is with Nortech Performance this week. We are having the twin scroll manifold built and a down pipe and exhaust system. Swapped from 3.5" to 3" as they felt 3.5" was overkill.
We are also putting O2 sensor locations on each of the primaries and one in the billet collector. I was going to put EGT sensors in but have heard about tips dropping off and causing all sorts of issues.
One of the reasons for multiple o2 sensors is that the YB always goes on cylinder 4 so we want to look closely at individual cylinder fuel trims to take care of this. Me having a billet Swedish manifold could make the car more prone to disparity on airflow. If I can`t get it to work we`ll swap to a different plenum.
Someone also offered me good money for my Motec M400 so that`s sold and have had delivered today an M800 with Traction, DBW, Launch, Flat shift, 1MB logging and will buy lambda operation. Will look at using a VAG 1.8T E-throttle and pedal as the bolt pattern happens to be exactly the same as YB.
Car should come back from Rotherham next week straight to Tylah Motorsport who are fitting a full caged roll cage, engineering the rear rad and header tank location, water pipes, oil cooler and location, dry sump tank, building up the intercooler and fitting to chassis. We`ll be looking at ducting as well.
Car is with Nortech Performance this week. We are having the twin scroll manifold built and a down pipe and exhaust system. Swapped from 3.5" to 3" as they felt 3.5" was overkill.
We are also putting O2 sensor locations on each of the primaries and one in the billet collector. I was going to put EGT sensors in but have heard about tips dropping off and causing all sorts of issues.
One of the reasons for multiple o2 sensors is that the YB always goes on cylinder 4 so we want to look closely at individual cylinder fuel trims to take care of this. Me having a billet Swedish manifold could make the car more prone to disparity on airflow. If I can`t get it to work we`ll swap to a different plenum.
Someone also offered me good money for my Motec M400 so that`s sold and have had delivered today an M800 with Traction, DBW, Launch, Flat shift, 1MB logging and will buy lambda operation. Will look at using a VAG 1.8T E-throttle and pedal as the bolt pattern happens to be exactly the same as YB.
Car should come back from Rotherham next week straight to Tylah Motorsport who are fitting a full caged roll cage, engineering the rear rad and header tank location, water pipes, oil cooler and location, dry sump tank, building up the intercooler and fitting to chassis. We`ll be looking at ducting as well.
I spoke with engine builder yesterday, he's starting on that on Saturday with gas flowing the head.
Has asked me whether I want to change to one piece valves. I'm not sure.
Chassis is being re engineered at the moment for intercooler mounting and rad mounting etc etc will then have to look at loom and ecu install and mapping etc.
Realistically........my wife is expecting mid Aug so I would be very surprised if I get it done for any meaningful use this summer.
Would be nice though!
Has asked me whether I want to change to one piece valves. I'm not sure.
Chassis is being re engineered at the moment for intercooler mounting and rad mounting etc etc will then have to look at loom and ecu install and mapping etc.
Realistically........my wife is expecting mid Aug so I would be very surprised if I get it done for any meaningful use this summer.
Would be nice though!
Would like to ask people`s thoughts about the set up of the cooling system.
Most set ups have the expansion tank as the highest point on the system for self bleeding and filling etc. Obvs this is going to be A. difficult and B. even more ugly. Do you think I could get away without an expansion tank if I used waterless coolant?
I can fill the system from the top hose of the rad and use a vacuum to pull all the way through the system. I`m sure with a bit of jiggery pokery with raising rear end for example I can get it filled with no air locks.
Having never done anything like this before I`m just trying to get my head round it.
I think with using the Evans stuff with it not pressurizing as much as water it will also be a lot safer what with the location of the rad.
Most set ups have the expansion tank as the highest point on the system for self bleeding and filling etc. Obvs this is going to be A. difficult and B. even more ugly. Do you think I could get away without an expansion tank if I used waterless coolant?
I can fill the system from the top hose of the rad and use a vacuum to pull all the way through the system. I`m sure with a bit of jiggery pokery with raising rear end for example I can get it filled with no air locks.
Having never done anything like this before I`m just trying to get my head round it.
I think with using the Evans stuff with it not pressurizing as much as water it will also be a lot safer what with the location of the rad.
I completely agree with you, common sense says it will expand when heated. I dont really want to use it but it may be an answer?
Your suggestion for piping sounds feasible.
Probably a little way off for this but it's annoying me. I think a lot of this is going to be suck it and see. Not exactly re inventing the wheel though!
Your suggestion for piping sounds feasible.
Probably a little way off for this but it's annoying me. I think a lot of this is going to be suck it and see. Not exactly re inventing the wheel though!
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