Kit car show Donnington - Views
Discussion
Good morning all, just thought I would post my views (NB these are all IMHO of course) of the cars I saw at the kit-car show at Donnington on Saturday to see what you thought.
I thought the show was one of the best I'd been to, certainly the quality of the stands have improved since the "kit car and specials" show I went to years ago before buying my kit.
Winner of the "doh" award.
Westfield. I went to have a look at the XTR2 in the flesh and it wasn't there! I asked about it and found that they had smashed up the front end the weekend before. (hence the doh award). Their stand was impressive and their customer service was excellent. They had no problems with questions and allowed you to have good long looks and "play" with the cars on display. If I were them I would have at least got a running chassis and large posters etc. I was very impressed with the bike-engined seven.
Most flamboiant stand
Has to go to Ultima, they had their own marquee and rotating GTR very impressive guys.
Worst customer reaction.
This I feel is a draw, between the people at t5 developments and Caterham. I should explain this: I went with my father and I have been interested in Bike engined cars. My father rides a BMW k1100 (touring style bike) and he was interested in cars when he is "too old for bike" (his words not mine). So we are wandering around asking questions, having a good look etc. So clearly we are both genuinely interested in future projects.
t5 Developments
I see the t5 and go nice car, to find out its a "pure trackday car", So I ask the obvious question "will you produce a road legal version?" the bloke about bit my head off, saying that there "never could be a proper trackday and road legal car" IMHO Caterham, and Westfield seem to have been able to do this for years. I felt the chap was getting confused between a trackday car and a racing car. His friend then followed on saying that I should get a trailer. I pointed out that I drove a mini as my everyday car and his reaction was to sell it and buy a 4x4. The price of the kit was £10k, not to mention the doubled up insurance etc. Guys this is very expensive for a toy you can only use on the track. If I was so inclined I would buy a single seater, get a MSA licence and drive on test days. The "piece de resistance" in their aggresive style of anti-road/track cars they ask: "what would you do if you wrecked the car you drove to the track in" his face was a picture when I said "I'd call the RAC, they will cover you for track day cars". Whilst I appreciate your philosphy and thoughts I would have thought being aggressive at a kit-car show to customers was not the best way to sell your product.
Caterham
I have always had the greatest respect for Caterham and have often thought about owning one of these fine machines. However the reaction I got to "is there a bike engined version" was incredable. It was as if I was something he'd trod in. He went on that a car engine was far more practical and that the bike engine wasn't suitable for the car etc. Now whilst I'm sure he had some valid points to think about, his completely poo poo attitude to the concept made him look very ill-informed and unprofessional. Esp considering that one of their suppliers do a bike engined version (and it did particulaly well in Evo I recall). He appeared very stuck in his ways without looking to the future. Slagging off your competition in an almost arogant fashion is not a good way to sell cars.
Best Stand/Customer reaction
DAX cars, The chap couldn't have enough time for us. He was excellent, I asked questions about the SVA and he told me in detail how potential problems could be solved. He was honest about areas of unrealibility they had experienced and how they had gone about solving the problems. It was clear he was an expert in his field and struck me as the kind of person that would spend time with you over the phone if you hit a tricky part of the build. The cars they showed were superb and the standard of engineering looked excellent. I was extremely impressed with this company and they now are very high on the list of "possible future projects"
Biggest disappointment
MK engineering. I've now seen this car in the flesh and I'm afraid I wasn't that impressed. I have been very interested in this car but the project that was presented at the show looked very rough. The chain drive system looks very fragile IMHO and the quality of the bodywork/fit wasn't good. I realise that this is their development car but the company was saying that they would have the car in SVA compliant form and it was clear that the car was no where near. The advertising material cleverly showed the rear of the car with a number plate and lights etc. but the front has no lights and parts of the bodywork had gaps/misfit by 10mm!! On the positive side the chassis itself looked excellent and I wouldn't hesitate in buying their locost chassis. BUT IMHO The MK project is still a long way off being complete and I personally wouldn't have shown it yet.
Honourable mentions
Avian (appologies if spelt wrong), a 2CV based 3 wheeler. My father really liked these and the people showing were customers. Again friendly, keen to answer questions, and lovely cars.
Marlin, beutiful cars and friendly people again not afraid to answer questions about the SVA and methods of solving the problems.
There you go, my "review of the show". Did any of you lot go and what did you think.
Smeagol
>>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 16th September 11:56
I thought the show was one of the best I'd been to, certainly the quality of the stands have improved since the "kit car and specials" show I went to years ago before buying my kit.
Winner of the "doh" award.
Westfield. I went to have a look at the XTR2 in the flesh and it wasn't there! I asked about it and found that they had smashed up the front end the weekend before. (hence the doh award). Their stand was impressive and their customer service was excellent. They had no problems with questions and allowed you to have good long looks and "play" with the cars on display. If I were them I would have at least got a running chassis and large posters etc. I was very impressed with the bike-engined seven.
Most flamboiant stand
Has to go to Ultima, they had their own marquee and rotating GTR very impressive guys.
Worst customer reaction.
This I feel is a draw, between the people at t5 developments and Caterham. I should explain this: I went with my father and I have been interested in Bike engined cars. My father rides a BMW k1100 (touring style bike) and he was interested in cars when he is "too old for bike" (his words not mine). So we are wandering around asking questions, having a good look etc. So clearly we are both genuinely interested in future projects.
t5 Developments
I see the t5 and go nice car, to find out its a "pure trackday car", So I ask the obvious question "will you produce a road legal version?" the bloke about bit my head off, saying that there "never could be a proper trackday and road legal car" IMHO Caterham, and Westfield seem to have been able to do this for years. I felt the chap was getting confused between a trackday car and a racing car. His friend then followed on saying that I should get a trailer. I pointed out that I drove a mini as my everyday car and his reaction was to sell it and buy a 4x4. The price of the kit was £10k, not to mention the doubled up insurance etc. Guys this is very expensive for a toy you can only use on the track. If I was so inclined I would buy a single seater, get a MSA licence and drive on test days. The "piece de resistance" in their aggresive style of anti-road/track cars they ask: "what would you do if you wrecked the car you drove to the track in" his face was a picture when I said "I'd call the RAC, they will cover you for track day cars". Whilst I appreciate your philosphy and thoughts I would have thought being aggressive at a kit-car show to customers was not the best way to sell your product.
Caterham
I have always had the greatest respect for Caterham and have often thought about owning one of these fine machines. However the reaction I got to "is there a bike engined version" was incredable. It was as if I was something he'd trod in. He went on that a car engine was far more practical and that the bike engine wasn't suitable for the car etc. Now whilst I'm sure he had some valid points to think about, his completely poo poo attitude to the concept made him look very ill-informed and unprofessional. Esp considering that one of their suppliers do a bike engined version (and it did particulaly well in Evo I recall). He appeared very stuck in his ways without looking to the future. Slagging off your competition in an almost arogant fashion is not a good way to sell cars.
Best Stand/Customer reaction
DAX cars, The chap couldn't have enough time for us. He was excellent, I asked questions about the SVA and he told me in detail how potential problems could be solved. He was honest about areas of unrealibility they had experienced and how they had gone about solving the problems. It was clear he was an expert in his field and struck me as the kind of person that would spend time with you over the phone if you hit a tricky part of the build. The cars they showed were superb and the standard of engineering looked excellent. I was extremely impressed with this company and they now are very high on the list of "possible future projects"
Biggest disappointment
MK engineering. I've now seen this car in the flesh and I'm afraid I wasn't that impressed. I have been very interested in this car but the project that was presented at the show looked very rough. The chain drive system looks very fragile IMHO and the quality of the bodywork/fit wasn't good. I realise that this is their development car but the company was saying that they would have the car in SVA compliant form and it was clear that the car was no where near. The advertising material cleverly showed the rear of the car with a number plate and lights etc. but the front has no lights and parts of the bodywork had gaps/misfit by 10mm!! On the positive side the chassis itself looked excellent and I wouldn't hesitate in buying their locost chassis. BUT IMHO The MK project is still a long way off being complete and I personally wouldn't have shown it yet.
Honourable mentions
Avian (appologies if spelt wrong), a 2CV based 3 wheeler. My father really liked these and the people showing were customers. Again friendly, keen to answer questions, and lovely cars.
Marlin, beutiful cars and friendly people again not afraid to answer questions about the SVA and methods of solving the problems.
There you go, my "review of the show". Did any of you lot go and what did you think.
Smeagol
>>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 16th September 11:56
Okay heres the question. I couldn't make the Sunday (BSB at Mallory) I as you have guessed, loved the Dax Hybussa, did anyone get a ride or see it on track, was it as awesome as I imagine? Did dax also run the "standard" unturboed BEC? Has anybody been in the bike engined westi (the gear change system looked excellent)? Both peeked my interest. (yes eating humble pie over my engine should be same end of drive wheels opinion, I was wrong)
Would like peoples opnion on these superb machines.
Would like peoples opnion on these superb machines.
Thanks Joost may take you up on that. I was really looking for just impressions of what the car was like. ie was there any worrying parts you thought may be potential problems. Was the cars handling, acceleration, and most importantly breaking as good as expected. etc. Just a sort of what impressed you and what didn't that kind of thing.
Many thanks, your English is excellent by the way. I was very impressed with the quality of the demonstrator at the show (but it was on the stand). So I'm glad your impression is that shown by their reviews in their information pack. Yes, DAX are very high on my list of possible future projects.
I agree about your comment about too much power. I would have thought a standard bike engine would be plenty good enough to scare youself with. Turbo-charging a bike engine could be a bad idea for reliability.
I agree about your comment about too much power. I would have thought a standard bike engine would be plenty good enough to scare youself with. Turbo-charging a bike engine could be a bad idea for reliability.
quote:
Hi all
Just for information I own a butchers shop and have just had a phone call saying some-one was slagging martin of MK off on the internet.Fraid as an MK indy owner I have to disagree with some of your comments.If you had spoken to any of the lads on the stand they would have told you they were hoping to get the car SVA'd by donnington but had a bad batch of head lamp pods that weren't upto standard.the chain drive might look fragile but my son was taken out in the car as a present prior to going in the R.E.M.E and was most impressed 11500 RPM.if you looked carefully at the drive set up you would have noticed the split rear sprocket which enables quickchanges of gearing.any way enough where all entitled to our opinion and really what the F~## do you want for 3500 quid.
tony
These opnions were all my own opinion stating that I was very disappointed in the MK. Which I still stand by. Saying it was just the lights that the car isn't SVA'd really just insults my intellegence. I presume you have seen the car as I have and theres a lot more work to be done than simply fitting lights to get that car through the SVA. (for example the instruments as they stand would fail)
The drive train does look fragile, it may work round the track for a few laps but IMO it wouldn't last for long on the public highway. A BEC has a lot of weight to pull from stationary and that puts a lot of strain on the chain and sprockets. Track cars spend very little time stationary but road cars do it all the time. I wouldn't be surprised with the sytem I saw if the chain or sprocket broke in the pulling away motion, this is very common with racing sidecar outfits. Of course as I stated in my first post this is IMHO.
£3500 is a lot of money for a basic chassis bodywork kit with suspension arms. May I suggest you look at Westfield, and Dax at their kit prices and what they contain for a similar price.
I believe that the post I did first was fair and reasonable. I never as you have implied actually insulted anyone (or slagged Martin off, as you put it)but made comments on the car I saw. Notice I also stated how good I thought their chassis for the other cars were and critised other manufacturers.
Might be worth just posting it here!! 
On eth BEC oil front I would personally dry sump it no matter which way round the end is. On a bike it tilts into the corner so the oil stays level relative to the sump. (like water in a bucket swung round your head)
In the car the engine remains level whilst the oil goes from side to side. I believe a lot of the first BEC had problems of this type when testing for a long time.
Chain drive can be strong but the comment was more on how it was done on the MK, for example the t5 development car had chain drive but with a ratio of 1:1 going through a diff. The mk went from small gear to large gear (no I didn't count the teeth so I don't know the ratio). t5 pointed out that you would do 20 minutes track time in the morning adjust the tesion and then 20mins in the afternoon. That and the fact that most heavy bikes (eg honda goldwing, BMW K1300, etc.) are prop driven, is why I'm a little sceptical about chain drive.
I don't think I have been unfair on the MK. I was discussing the MK with someone via email and pointed out that it was a prototype then. Even considering that, theres still a lot of work to be done on what will be no doubt a good car eventually.
On eth BEC oil front I would personally dry sump it no matter which way round the end is. On a bike it tilts into the corner so the oil stays level relative to the sump. (like water in a bucket swung round your head)
In the car the engine remains level whilst the oil goes from side to side. I believe a lot of the first BEC had problems of this type when testing for a long time.
Chain drive can be strong but the comment was more on how it was done on the MK, for example the t5 development car had chain drive but with a ratio of 1:1 going through a diff. The mk went from small gear to large gear (no I didn't count the teeth so I don't know the ratio). t5 pointed out that you would do 20 minutes track time in the morning adjust the tesion and then 20mins in the afternoon. That and the fact that most heavy bikes (eg honda goldwing, BMW K1300, etc.) are prop driven, is why I'm a little sceptical about chain drive.
I don't think I have been unfair on the MK. I was discussing the MK with someone via email and pointed out that it was a prototype then. Even considering that, theres still a lot of work to be done on what will be no doubt a good car eventually.
quote:
Bike chains are very strong as if they break the rider dies!they do however wear and need constant maintenance.
Bit OTT they lose drive thats all (equivalent to free wheeling on a pushbike). I have seen plenty of race sidecar outfits lose chains and race bikes for that matter losing drive (either through chain or gearbox) and rarely has it even caused an accident. Far worse is losing brakes or traction. I am a big fan of bike racing BTW and go regulary to Mallory or Donnington to watch the club racing. You can almost guarentee that someone in one of the races loses drive in some way. Usually ends up with hand up and coasting to the side.
quote:
This is why large cruiser bikes end up with prop drives, they last longer and need less maintenance.
As the performance of the bike goes up so does the size of the chain, they arn't designed for the extra weight of a car but if looked after and correctly speced I would expect then to cope, just expect to replace the every 4000 miles!
Exactly my thoughts except don't forget they are shorter than bikes chains meaning the chain is working harder (ie passes the through the system more than a long chain) making wear and tear even harder on the chain and sprocket. The equivalent torque to pull a BEC away would flip the bike (which riders don't try to do all the time, or at all
) again putting extra strain on the chain and sprockets. Most bike chains if looked after last 20,000 miles on a bike so I think you're probably right at 4000miles. I don't know how many miles you could do without needing to adjust it though!ultimaandy, whilst rear wheel locking can happen its very very rare. Mostly caused by the engine seizing the and chain not breaking.
As for the fragility of BEC, IMHO if you are building the car for everyday use, then the longevity is in question, simply because no-one has done it yet. The japanese bikes are very reliable but the idea of using them in a lightweight car is very new (about 2 years I believe). Certainly the first few BEC did have problems but IMHO this was due to either not ensuring the engine gets oil/correct cooling or being over reved (ala Tiff needels incident). Certainly looking at the DAX and Westfield a lot of very clever engineering has taken place since then.
In my opinion a well looked after BEC will be as reliable as a car engined version. A lot of anti-BEC people will talk about the weight difference etc. but all you have to do is look at the power delivery of the engines to realise that they are more than capable for the job. The rest of the engineering is the same as a normal car (brakes, suspension, steering etc.)
New technology always will have its skeptics but I personally think its the way to go for lightweight fun.
As for the fragility of BEC, IMHO if you are building the car for everyday use, then the longevity is in question, simply because no-one has done it yet. The japanese bikes are very reliable but the idea of using them in a lightweight car is very new (about 2 years I believe). Certainly the first few BEC did have problems but IMHO this was due to either not ensuring the engine gets oil/correct cooling or being over reved (ala Tiff needels incident). Certainly looking at the DAX and Westfield a lot of very clever engineering has taken place since then.
In my opinion a well looked after BEC will be as reliable as a car engined version. A lot of anti-BEC people will talk about the weight difference etc. but all you have to do is look at the power delivery of the engines to realise that they are more than capable for the job. The rest of the engineering is the same as a normal car (brakes, suspension, steering etc.)
New technology always will have its skeptics but I personally think its the way to go for lightweight fun.
The oil sump I saw on the MK was standard. As you say they modify the sump and pickup on sidecars to stop them going bang from oil deprevation. Don't forget also F1 sidecar outfits change engine quite often. As Steve said there are several methods to prevent oil surge. I personally would choose dry sumping as you know where you stand.
The point is on a BEC you certainly can't just throw the engine in standard form (whichever way round) and hope that the oil level stays okay.
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 26th September 00:54
The point is on a BEC you certainly can't just throw the engine in standard form (whichever way round) and hope that the oil level stays okay.
>> Edited by smeagol on Thursday 26th September 00:54
quote:
Now don't agree with you on the "last as long as cars" as you won't find many fireblades having done over 100k.
Actually I never said that I said that a well maintained BEC will be as reliable as a car engine. That is different from longevity, but in the same argument how many sevens do 100k?
These kinds of cars (whatever type of engine used) are designed for fun, not going to the moon and back.
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