2024: BTCC chat & discussion
Discussion
clubracing said:
So that's BMR, Dynamics, Ciceley, Hard, and One Motorsport that have either folded or pulled out of BTCC in just the last few years.
I think Alan Gow and TOCA need to change something urgently for 2025, as clearly the financials of BTCC aren't balancing out at the moment.
We're entering the second year of an economic slowdown, last time we went through the same sort of situation was 2009.I think Alan Gow and TOCA need to change something urgently for 2025, as clearly the financials of BTCC aren't balancing out at the moment.
In 2009, there was a 19 car average across the whole season. Very significant difference between what we have now vs what we had then, that was nothing like the same 19 cars. It was people dropping in and out all season long, sometimes multiple drivers in the one car, sometimes people doing 3 rounds then disappearing.
Team Dynamics only had 1 full season driver in Dave Pinkney, Airwaves BMW were Motorbase and Team RAC were WSR. Aside from them, none of the teams in 2009 are names that still feature in the championship. Over the same period we're lost BMR and Team HARD, we've gained Excelr8 and Speedworks have expanded to 4 cars.
This year we've got 20 cars on the grid, who will have drivers signed up for the full season. There's still potential for 2-4 more to appear.
People keep saying Alan Gow needs to have a rethink, this is exactly what he's been talking about for years. The TBL was specifically introduced to try and stop the musical chairs style entries and get people in to cars who were committed for full seasons. Probably didn't want the numbers to drop below mid 20s, but he always said 28 was about where he felt the limit was. Pretty sure he also doesnt want to risk the touring car paddock featuring as a back drop to an episode of Cant Pay We'll Take It Away.
emicen said:
We're entering the second year of an economic slowdown, last time we went through the same sort of situation was 2009.
In 2009, there was a 19 car average across the whole season. Very significant difference between what we have now vs what we had then, that was nothing like the same 19 cars. It was people dropping in and out all season long, sometimes multiple drivers in the one car, sometimes people doing 3 rounds then disappearing.
Team Dynamics only had 1 full season driver in Dave Pinkney, Airwaves BMW were Motorbase and Team RAC were WSR. Aside from them, none of the teams in 2009 are names that still feature in the championship. Over the same period we're lost BMR and Team HARD, we've gained Excelr8 and Speedworks have expanded to 4 cars.
This year we've got 20 cars on the grid, who will have drivers signed up for the full season. There's still potential for 2-4 more to appear.
People keep saying Alan Gow needs to have a rethink, this is exactly what he's been talking about for years. The TBL was specifically introduced to try and stop the musical chairs style entries and get people in to cars who were committed for full seasons. Probably didn't want the numbers to drop below mid 20s, but he always said 28 was about where he felt the limit was. Pretty sure he also doesnt want to risk the touring car paddock featuring as a back drop to an episode of Cant Pay We'll Take It Away.
By contrast, though, British GT is fully subscribed with a 36 car grid - with 19 expected in the most expensive GT3 category. In GT World Challenge Europe the grids for both the Endurance and Sprint championships were already full last month (55 and 42 cars). In 2009, there was a 19 car average across the whole season. Very significant difference between what we have now vs what we had then, that was nothing like the same 19 cars. It was people dropping in and out all season long, sometimes multiple drivers in the one car, sometimes people doing 3 rounds then disappearing.
Team Dynamics only had 1 full season driver in Dave Pinkney, Airwaves BMW were Motorbase and Team RAC were WSR. Aside from them, none of the teams in 2009 are names that still feature in the championship. Over the same period we're lost BMR and Team HARD, we've gained Excelr8 and Speedworks have expanded to 4 cars.
This year we've got 20 cars on the grid, who will have drivers signed up for the full season. There's still potential for 2-4 more to appear.
People keep saying Alan Gow needs to have a rethink, this is exactly what he's been talking about for years. The TBL was specifically introduced to try and stop the musical chairs style entries and get people in to cars who were committed for full seasons. Probably didn't want the numbers to drop below mid 20s, but he always said 28 was about where he felt the limit was. Pretty sure he also doesnt want to risk the touring car paddock featuring as a back drop to an episode of Cant Pay We'll Take It Away.
Perhaps touring car racing in general is declining in popularity, with TCR fields collapsing too (UK aside).
Ahonen said:
By contrast, though, British GT is fully subscribed with a 36 car grid - with 19 expected in the most expensive GT3 category. In GT World Challenge Europe the grids for both the Endurance and Sprint championships were already full last month (55 and 42 cars).
Perhaps touring car racing in general is declining in popularity, with TCR fields collapsing too (UK aside).
I think it is sprint racing that is collapsing, If you have another driver or two the costs are reduced per person, even if the overall cost to do a GT race is more.Perhaps touring car racing in general is declining in popularity, with TCR fields collapsing too (UK aside).
This seems to be the case in club racing, where track time per minute is more expensive for a single driver sprint race that for an enduro style event.
Ahonen said:
By contrast, though, British GT is fully subscribed with a 36 car grid - with 19 expected in the most expensive GT3 category. In GT World Challenge Europe the grids for both the Endurance and Sprint championships were already full last month (55 and 42 cars).
Perhaps touring car racing in general is declining in popularity, with TCR fields collapsing too (UK aside).
Funded by wealthy "gentleman" drivers for the most part. For whatever reasons touring car sprint races don't appeal to them.Perhaps touring car racing in general is declining in popularity, with TCR fields collapsing too (UK aside).
On-Rails said:
DanielSan said:
Team Dynamics said the same thing...
Yep, not holding my breath on seeing them back next year.On more positive news, it looks like someone is lining up another Cupra to entered this season.
GlobalRacer said:
Funded by wealthy "gentleman" drivers for the most part. For whatever reasons touring car sprint races don't appeal to them.
It would be interesting to see what the budget differences are for a season of BTCC and British GT. GT racing also has the advantage, for 'gentlemen', that you can hire some professional co-driver to make you look good
Also, your car can be used in other SRO GT series around the world, so you can enter other races/series and have a wider market if you are looking to sell.
Given the amount of abuse Nick Halstead is copping on social media today it's little wonder the "gentleman" drivers avoid BTCC and it's fans that seem to have no concept of how motorsport works.
All talk about people "deserving" drives and how so and so driver could be in the seat if he wasn't there etc. Yet when a driver like that is funding a co-driver it's all different.
All talk about people "deserving" drives and how so and so driver could be in the seat if he wasn't there etc. Yet when a driver like that is funding a co-driver it's all different.
Ahonen said:
emicen said:
We're entering the second year of an economic slowdown, last time we went through the same sort of situation was 2009.
In 2009, there was a 19 car average across the whole season. Very significant difference between what we have now vs what we had then, that was nothing like the same 19 cars. It was people dropping in and out all season long, sometimes multiple drivers in the one car, sometimes people doing 3 rounds then disappearing.
Team Dynamics only had 1 full season driver in Dave Pinkney, Airwaves BMW were Motorbase and Team RAC were WSR. Aside from them, none of the teams in 2009 are names that still feature in the championship. Over the same period we're lost BMR and Team HARD, we've gained Excelr8 and Speedworks have expanded to 4 cars.
This year we've got 20 cars on the grid, who will have drivers signed up for the full season. There's still potential for 2-4 more to appear.
People keep saying Alan Gow needs to have a rethink, this is exactly what he's been talking about for years. The TBL was specifically introduced to try and stop the musical chairs style entries and get people in to cars who were committed for full seasons. Probably didn't want the numbers to drop below mid 20s, but he always said 28 was about where he felt the limit was. Pretty sure he also doesnt want to risk the touring car paddock featuring as a back drop to an episode of Cant Pay We'll Take It Away.
By contrast, though, British GT is fully subscribed with a 36 car grid - with 19 expected in the most expensive GT3 category. In GT World Challenge Europe the grids for both the Endurance and Sprint championships were already full last month (55 and 42 cars). In 2009, there was a 19 car average across the whole season. Very significant difference between what we have now vs what we had then, that was nothing like the same 19 cars. It was people dropping in and out all season long, sometimes multiple drivers in the one car, sometimes people doing 3 rounds then disappearing.
Team Dynamics only had 1 full season driver in Dave Pinkney, Airwaves BMW were Motorbase and Team RAC were WSR. Aside from them, none of the teams in 2009 are names that still feature in the championship. Over the same period we're lost BMR and Team HARD, we've gained Excelr8 and Speedworks have expanded to 4 cars.
This year we've got 20 cars on the grid, who will have drivers signed up for the full season. There's still potential for 2-4 more to appear.
People keep saying Alan Gow needs to have a rethink, this is exactly what he's been talking about for years. The TBL was specifically introduced to try and stop the musical chairs style entries and get people in to cars who were committed for full seasons. Probably didn't want the numbers to drop below mid 20s, but he always said 28 was about where he felt the limit was. Pretty sure he also doesnt want to risk the touring car paddock featuring as a back drop to an episode of Cant Pay We'll Take It Away.
Perhaps touring car racing in general is declining in popularity, with TCR fields collapsing too (UK aside).
They'll have to make a decision about TCR going full on silhouette style a la NASCAR, and more or less what WRC has become or maybe creating a separate Sprint GT series to replace TCR, which could see shared costs etc., among the GT teams regarding development etc.
aeropilot said:
Is there not also the added factor, for the UK on the path to 2030 ICE ban, TCR will gradually loose any relevance.
That would matter if it was manufacturers racing directly I would think but it's not. It's teams and individuals buying cars and racing them.People still race horses and cars that are decades old after all.
GlobalRacer said:
aeropilot said:
Is there not also the added factor, for the UK on the path to 2030 ICE ban, TCR will gradually loose any relevance.
That would matter if it was manufacturers racing directly I would think but it's not. It's teams and individuals buying cars and racing them.aeropilot said:
Yes, but, they have to use production shells etc., so unless they start changing the rules, i.e. as said, going to a silhouette style a la NASCAR, they will have to use production shells of cars no longer sold in the UK, or even built for EU market, as EV platforms won't work....and as such the relevance to the casual TV fan etc., will diminish, and if it drops off the freeview TV schedules, then its time could be up.
Is TCR on freeview? I always watch it on YouTube.TCR is a global platform though. There are no rules about cars having to be sold in the UK as there are with BTCC for example. As long as people want to buy the cars to race then the manufacturers will still produce them and there are huge markets with no pending ban on new ICE sales.
GlobalRacer said:
aeropilot said:
Yes, but, they have to use production shells etc., so unless they start changing the rules, i.e. as said, going to a silhouette style a la NASCAR, they will have to use production shells of cars no longer sold in the UK, or even built for EU market, as EV platforms won't work....and as such the relevance to the casual TV fan etc., will diminish, and if it drops off the freeview TV schedules, then its time could be up.
Is TCR on freeview? I always watch it on YouTube.TCR is a global platform though. There are no rules about cars having to be sold in the UK as there are with BTCC for example.
I didn't realise the poster that I was relying to mentioning TCR was not talking something separate to BTCC.
(I had to look up TCR, as never heard of it, as outside of BTCC, Historic's & Porsche Cup perhaps, I've largely given up on everything else)
This is why I lament the passing of Muttering Screws.
(I had to look up TCR, as never heard of it, as outside of BTCC, Historic's & Porsche Cup perhaps, I've largely given up on everything else)
This is why I lament the passing of Muttering Screws.
GlobalRacer said:
Given the amount of abuse Nick Halstead is copping on social media today it's little wonder the "gentleman" drivers avoid BTCC and it's fans that seem to have no concept of how motorsport works.
All talk about people "deserving" drives and how so and so driver could be in the seat if he wasn't there etc. Yet when a driver like that is funding a co-driver it's all different.
Quite a lot of the BTCC fan base is at best, odd, and at worst utterly moronic. The vast majority regularly call out for certain drivers to be in cars because they have no idea tbat the whole grid are paying to be there not paid to race. All talk about people "deserving" drives and how so and so driver could be in the seat if he wasn't there etc. Yet when a driver like that is funding a co-driver it's all different.
GlobalRacer said:
Given the amount of abuse Nick Halstead is copping on social media today it's little wonder the "gentleman" drivers avoid BTCC and it's fans that seem to have no concept of how motorsport works..
I think this can be a lot of the attraction in the non televised series. You get to race at a good level in capable teams but you don't have to deal with 'being famous'.
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