The Official Hungarian GP Thread 2012 ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
If it's dry, McLaren might get some practice running time with the new aero bits brought in for Germany. I can't call this one, to be honest. I think it's going to be close between Alonso, RB and McLaren, with Lotus and Merc not far off them. I hope Webber does well, if a Red Bull is going to do it this year, I'd rather him than Vettel.
McLaren plans further upgrades for the Hungarian Grand Prix
If it's dry I'll go for:
Quali:
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel
Button
Webber
Race:
Hamilton
Alonso
Button
Vettel
Webber
If it's wet though...who knows.
Autosport said:
McLaren will introduce further car upgrades for this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix as it bids to build on its impressive performance at Hockenheim.
A major package of updates, which included modified sidepods and exhausts allowed McLaren to return to race-winning contention in the German Grand Prix.
It is hoped that further aerodynamic upgrades at the Hungaroring will build on that progress after team principal Martin Whitmarsh stressed the importance of ongoing development work.
"There are some more updates for Hungary," said sporting director Sam Michael. "We will definitely be bringing parts there and then to Spa.
"For Monza, we will probably just have Monza-specific parts and then [another upgrade] at Singapore. That's where we are at.
"Without question, we made a big step at Hockenheim. We saw that in FP1 and FP3 in the dry and if we can get on top of our performance in the wet then we will have the complete article.
"We had competitive race pace and super-competitive qualifying pace if it was going to be dry. I'm sure that we can be really competitive [in Hungary]."
Michael has no doubts that McLaren had the quickest car in Germany and that Jenson Button would likely have won had he qualified better
But for the wet conditions during Q3, in which both Button and Lewis Hamilton struggled for tyre temperature, he believes that a win was on the cards.
"If we had qualified better, we wouldn't have used up so much energy, particularly in the tyres, to get back to where [Fernando] Alonso and [Sebastian] Vettel were. We would have been able to use our pace against them.
"If we had qualified around them and then we would not have been held up by [Michael] Schumacher and [Nico] Hulkenberg for a few laps at the beginning, which costs us the time. If we were racing next to them, there's no question we would have had the ability to race for the win."
Michael also admitted that there might not be any quick fix for McLaren's problems with tyre temperature in wet conditions, although much depends on the track characteristics.
At Silverstone, both drivers struggled on intermediate rubber, while at Hockenheim the cars were quick on those tyres, but uncompetitive on wets.
"Getting on top of wet problems is quite difficult, especially when you are inconsistent," he said. "You don't replicate the conditions anywhere.
"Then there are other factors such as load at Spa. You could have a warm-up problem at Spa, but it's such a high-load track that we could probably overcome it anyway because of the high-speed corners and long out laps."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101464A major package of updates, which included modified sidepods and exhausts allowed McLaren to return to race-winning contention in the German Grand Prix.
It is hoped that further aerodynamic upgrades at the Hungaroring will build on that progress after team principal Martin Whitmarsh stressed the importance of ongoing development work.
"There are some more updates for Hungary," said sporting director Sam Michael. "We will definitely be bringing parts there and then to Spa.
"For Monza, we will probably just have Monza-specific parts and then [another upgrade] at Singapore. That's where we are at.
"Without question, we made a big step at Hockenheim. We saw that in FP1 and FP3 in the dry and if we can get on top of our performance in the wet then we will have the complete article.
"We had competitive race pace and super-competitive qualifying pace if it was going to be dry. I'm sure that we can be really competitive [in Hungary]."
Michael has no doubts that McLaren had the quickest car in Germany and that Jenson Button would likely have won had he qualified better
But for the wet conditions during Q3, in which both Button and Lewis Hamilton struggled for tyre temperature, he believes that a win was on the cards.
"If we had qualified better, we wouldn't have used up so much energy, particularly in the tyres, to get back to where [Fernando] Alonso and [Sebastian] Vettel were. We would have been able to use our pace against them.
"If we had qualified around them and then we would not have been held up by [Michael] Schumacher and [Nico] Hulkenberg for a few laps at the beginning, which costs us the time. If we were racing next to them, there's no question we would have had the ability to race for the win."
Michael also admitted that there might not be any quick fix for McLaren's problems with tyre temperature in wet conditions, although much depends on the track characteristics.
At Silverstone, both drivers struggled on intermediate rubber, while at Hockenheim the cars were quick on those tyres, but uncompetitive on wets.
"Getting on top of wet problems is quite difficult, especially when you are inconsistent," he said. "You don't replicate the conditions anywhere.
"Then there are other factors such as load at Spa. You could have a warm-up problem at Spa, but it's such a high-load track that we could probably overcome it anyway because of the high-speed corners and long out laps."
If it's dry I'll go for:
Quali:
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel
Button
Webber
Race:
Hamilton
Alonso
Button
Vettel
Webber
If it's wet though...who knows.
vonuber said:
I think Alonso will win, Vettel second, Hamilton third and Ciderwithcerbie will shoehorn a criticism of MSC in somewhere regardless of context.
You Sir are a fair judge. I for one hope it is not that predictable. Mini1275 said:
If it's wet though...who knows.
One post here suggests there's a possibility of that. The weather here in the UK today is hotter and for the past two or three days has been hot with a totally clear blue sky. Not a wisp of cloud to be seen in all directions. If that area of high pressure moves east then could be a dry race...Daston said:
.
Looking at the timings from the race on Sunday it should be rather close if it stays dry. Alonso, Vettle, Button and Hamilton were all very close in terms of lap times.
.
One enigmatic statistic from the German GP was that of all those fast cars you mention, it was the old man of the tracks who posted the fastest lap of the race on lap 57 ... all very strange. hard to believe in fact.Looking at the timings from the race on Sunday it should be rather close if it stays dry. Alonso, Vettle, Button and Hamilton were all very close in terms of lap times.
.
I wonder what will happen on Sunday ... I hope that qualifying conditions and the race conditions are stable, be they both wet or both dry.
..
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101476
FIA set to force Red Bull to change engine mapping
FIA set to force Red Bull to change engine mapping
Autosport said:
Red Bull Racing is set to be forced to make changes to the engine mapping of its cars for this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT has learned, with the FIA poised to issue a clarification in the next 48 hours on the matter.
Following the controversy at Hockenheim on Sunday, when Red Bull Racing was referred to the stewards to explain why its cars were operating with engine maps that had reduced torque in the mid rpm range, motor racing's governing body is now close to acting.
AUTOSPORT understands that the FIA is planning to issue an official clarification on the matter before action gets underway in Budapest on Friday.
This document is almost certain to make it clear that what Red Bull Racing was doing in Germany will no longer be deemed acceptable.
Sources suggest that the FIA will lay down specific limits on the variations of torque that can be used throughout the rev range - with Red Bull Racing believed to have been using much less than the maximum available torque in the middle rev range.
It is understood that the new limit could allow as little tolerance in torque as two per cent, which is believed to be well inside the variation shown on the engine map used by Red Bull Racing at the German GP.
By having a greater variation in its engine mapping, Red Bull Racing was able to both minimise wheelspin and also pump more gases through its engines, therefore helping the aerodynamic benefits that the outfit still gets through the use of exhaust flow at the rear of the car.
Although Formula 1 technical delegate Jo Bauer believed that Red Bull Racing's engine maps were in breach of the regulations in Germany, the race stewards did not agree - even though they also did not accept the team's explanations of what was happening.
Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner was keen to play down the matter at Hockenheim, suggesting that he never had any doubt his team was in compliance with the regulations.
"Unfortunately, when you have a quick car, it's inevitable that questions are asked," he said. "F1 is a competitive business.
"The rules are pretty black and white and having looked at the evidence, the data, they [the stewards] were fully satisfied. That's the nature of Formula 1 at the end of the day. Of course, you are always going to get other teams that are going to speculate."
Even if the FIA rule clarification does mean Red Bull Racing has to make changes to its engine maps, it should be a fairly simply matter for the team to revert to settings that it used without problem earlier in the campaign.
Following the controversy at Hockenheim on Sunday, when Red Bull Racing was referred to the stewards to explain why its cars were operating with engine maps that had reduced torque in the mid rpm range, motor racing's governing body is now close to acting.
AUTOSPORT understands that the FIA is planning to issue an official clarification on the matter before action gets underway in Budapest on Friday.
This document is almost certain to make it clear that what Red Bull Racing was doing in Germany will no longer be deemed acceptable.
Sources suggest that the FIA will lay down specific limits on the variations of torque that can be used throughout the rev range - with Red Bull Racing believed to have been using much less than the maximum available torque in the middle rev range.
It is understood that the new limit could allow as little tolerance in torque as two per cent, which is believed to be well inside the variation shown on the engine map used by Red Bull Racing at the German GP.
By having a greater variation in its engine mapping, Red Bull Racing was able to both minimise wheelspin and also pump more gases through its engines, therefore helping the aerodynamic benefits that the outfit still gets through the use of exhaust flow at the rear of the car.
Although Formula 1 technical delegate Jo Bauer believed that Red Bull Racing's engine maps were in breach of the regulations in Germany, the race stewards did not agree - even though they also did not accept the team's explanations of what was happening.
Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner was keen to play down the matter at Hockenheim, suggesting that he never had any doubt his team was in compliance with the regulations.
"Unfortunately, when you have a quick car, it's inevitable that questions are asked," he said. "F1 is a competitive business.
"The rules are pretty black and white and having looked at the evidence, the data, they [the stewards] were fully satisfied. That's the nature of Formula 1 at the end of the day. Of course, you are always going to get other teams that are going to speculate."
Even if the FIA rule clarification does mean Red Bull Racing has to make changes to its engine maps, it should be a fairly simply matter for the team to revert to settings that it used without problem earlier in the campaign.
MGJohn said:
One enigmatic statistic from the German GP was that of all those fast cars you mention, it was the old man of the tracks who posted the fastest lap of the race on lap 57 ... all very strange. hard to believe in fact.
..
Why is it hard to believe? He had put a new set of softs on much later than anyone else, so with low fuel he should have been up there...
Besides, his best of 1.18.7 or so, is still at least 2 seconds slower than the car can be driven.
It's this bit that pisses me off:
Who knows about technical stuff?
Autosport said:
Although Formula 1 technical delegate Jo Bauer believed that Red Bull Racing's engine maps were in breach of the regulations in Germany, the race stewards did not agree - even though they also did not accept the team's explanations of what was happening.
the technical delegate reckons it's illegal, but the stewards reckon it's not.Who knows about technical stuff?
REALIST123 said:
MGJohn said:
One enigmatic statistic from the German GP was that of all those fast cars you mention, it was the old man of the tracks who posted the fastest lap of the race on lap 57 ... all very strange. hard to believe in fact.
..
Why is it hard to believe? He had put a new set of softs on much later than anyone else, so with low fuel he should have been up there...
Besides, his best of 1.18.7 or so, is still at least 2 seconds slower than the car can be driven.
.... 
Who was it that put that car on Pole back in Monaco ... who knew ?...
Life Saab Itch said:
the technical delegate reckons it's illegal, but the stewards reckon it's not.
Who knows about technical stuff?
Agreed, but the solicitor in me agrees with whilst it might be against the intention of the rule the drafting of the rule does not exclude it and so it is legal. At least until the rule is clarified. Who knows about technical stuff?
If I were, say Mclaren, I would be smirking that £Xmil has just been spent by RB on what is now a blind alley that they were encouraged to run down and that they don't have to ask Merc to spend.
i'm completely confused by this red bull ruling.
surely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
surely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
skinny said:
i'm completely confused by this red bull ruling.
surely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
They aren't altering the torque with fuelling; for exhaust blowing it has to be done with ignition timing.surely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
Life Saab Itch said:
It's this bit that pisses me off:
Who knows about technical stuff?
The technical delegate found that the effect Red Bull were producing was outside the 'spirit' or intention of the rules. The Stewards, who can only act upon the regulations as they are written, were powerless, as the regulations are worded in such a way that Red Bull's actions could not be said to have contravened them. Autosport said:
Although Formula 1 technical delegate Jo Bauer believed that Red Bull Racing's engine maps were in breach of the regulations in Germany, the race stewards did not agree - even though they also did not accept the team's explanations of what was happening.
the technical delegate reckons it's illegal, but the stewards reckon it's not.Who knows about technical stuff?
I would imagine there will be a clarification of the regulations to clear the loophole. The teams will all move on to the next one...
Mini1275 said:
McLaren plans further upgrades for the Hungarian Grand Prix
Autosport said:
McLaren will introduce further car upgrades for this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix as it bids to build on its impressive performance at Hockenheim.
"If we had qualified better, we wouldn't have used up so much energy, particularly in the tyres, to get back to where [Fernando] Alonso and [Sebastian] Vettel were. We would have been able to use our pace against them.
"If we had qualified around them and then we would not have been held up by [Michael] Schumacher and [Nico] Hulkenberg for a few laps at the beginning, which costs us the time. If we were racing next to them, there's no question we would have had the ability to race for the win."
IF Sam Michael's nan had go-nads she'd be his grandad ffs."If we had qualified better, we wouldn't have used up so much energy, particularly in the tyres, to get back to where [Fernando] Alonso and [Sebastian] Vettel were. We would have been able to use our pace against them.
"If we had qualified around them and then we would not have been held up by [Michael] Schumacher and [Nico] Hulkenberg for a few laps at the beginning, which costs us the time. If we were racing next to them, there's no question we would have had the ability to race for the win."
skinny said:
i'm completely confused by this red bull ruling.
surely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
i think their gripe with it was that at full throttle the full amount of torque should be going to the wheels. With the red bull torque maps i think they were such that at full throttle not the full amount of torque was going to the wheels, where else it was going fsurely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
k knows! Obviously it is alot more sophisticated than my explanation but they rekon this would enable it to act as a sort of tration control, not giving full torque until higher up the rev band or certain gears whatever. which is why they were pissed with it.
Jandywa said:
skinny said:
i'm completely confused by this red bull ruling.
surely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
i think their gripe with it was that at full throttle the full amount of torque should be going to the wheels. With the red bull torque maps i think they were such that at full throttle not the full amount of torque was going to the wheels, where else it was going fsurely you can have whatever torque you want at whatever throttle position, isn't that the point of drive-by-wire throttles and ECU's?
what are they saying, you can't have reduced torque at mid speed on some engine maps compared to others!? then how else are you meant to turn the 'wick' down when you are trying to save fuel...
have i missed somethign quite fundamental here?
k knows! Obviously it is alot more sophisticated than my explanation but they rekon this would enable it to act as a sort of tration control, not giving full torque until higher up the rev band or certain gears whatever. which is why they were pissed with it.
so are the FIA saying that the torque map isn't optimised for maximum torque under all conditions? surely part of the way they save the engines to allow it to complete 4 races, is to back off on the timing. i would expect every team to do this? maybe they'll give a bit more explanation this weekend...
edit: Joe Saward reckons the mid throttle torque on some maps was significantly less (and exhaust 'blowing' significantly more) at Hockenheim than at previous races, which was apparently the problem.
Edited by skinny on Tuesday 24th July 23:21
skinny said:
edit: Joe Saward reckons the mid throttle torque on some maps was significantly less (and exhaust 'blowing' significantly more) at Hockenheim than at previous races, which was apparently the problem.
http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/07/22/troubles...Here's his blog. The way he writes it does seem to agree with what I thought - not traction control at all but exhaust blowing.
TBH limiting the torque in the way it's been suggested would only stop the wheels spinning up in a very limited set of circumstances, and even then the effect can be quite easily replicated by just not pressing the accelerator quite so hard.
By the way that McLaren especially weren't up at the stewards protesting extremely loudly, I think their recent upturn in pace is likely down to them copying the Red Bull system, at least in part.
I suppose the question is where do we go from here? The teams evidently think exhaust blown diffusers are an extremely useful way of generating downforce without a commensurate drag penalty, and are willing to go to fairly extreme lengths to use them.
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