Unworthy champions (except Raikkonen)

[stephen300o]

Damon Hill.

[D_Mike]

i think the question of worthy or unworthy is a silly one, because if you are champion, unless you've cheated (as a few have) then you are by definition worthy. the process is self-selecting right.

Oh yeah, Damon Hill, he's even worse than Lewis Hamiliton.

[kevin ritson]

stephen300o said:

Damon Hill.

Coming very close in a previous season, beating a future World Champion, nearly winning a race in an uncompetitive car, developing a car and posting that team's first win, in the top ten of most wins....makes a worthy champion in my book.

[SamHH]

D_Mike said:

i think the question of worthy or unworthy is a silly one, because if you are champion, unless you've cheated (as a few have) then you are by definition worthy. the process is self-selecting right.

I agree with that, the only exception being if you cheat and are not penalised.

[Muzzer]

MrKipling43 said:

Muzzer - interesting points, and I guess it ultimately all comes back to the question 'what should a champion be willing to do to win?'

A lot of people look at the '94 season as one of the ultimate examples of Schumacher's ruthlessness. Our Damon was catching him, had him under pressure, forced him into an error to-wit the German rammed into him in a petulant act.

Whilst this is all true, over the season Schumacher was very, very good. The death of Senna was obviously a factor and some will claim that he would have walked the season instead. However, we know he struggled in the first few races but will never know the rest.

IMHO, the real question about '94 is does the fact that Schumacher took Our Damon out at the final race make his title any less deserved? It was a bitter pill for us Brits to swallow so we all tend to say yes but for some reason I think in years to come most will say No...

As an example of an undeserving champion stephen300o said:

Damon Hill.

Poppycock.

It bugs me when people say that Damon didn't deserve it in '96. Why not? Yes he had the best car, but why is he undeserving? Should he have slowed to give others a chance? Should he have told Williams to slow it down a bit?

Schumacher had the best car during most if not all of the early 2000s, does that make him undeserving? Thought not....

[LanCat]

Both Prost and Senna could be classified as unworthy for their antics to settle title races by "unorthodox" means.

How about Keke Rosberg being champion but only winning one race that year? Was that worthy?

Nope, all worthy champions for one reason or another IMHO.

How about those that would have made worthy champions but didn't make it for some reason? Collins, Moss, Villeneuve, Petersen; all came close and no-one would have complained if they were the champ.

[shoestring7]

pablo said:

with two races to go everyone bar kimi and ferrari thought it was a done deal but kimi drive two awesome races regardless of what happened behind him, he deserved the title.

Possibly true. Although you could claim that McClaren made a series of huge mistakes in the last two races (and arguably all year in not appointing a #1) and gifted the WDC to Raikkonen.

My nomination is 1958: Mike Hawthorne. He won only a single race vs Moss's 4 (from 10), including the Argentine GP which Moss won in the tiny Cooper run by a private team. Hawthorn blew hot and cold all season, but Moss was the first true professional. Its tragic he didn't win.

SS7

[D_Mike]

damon hill was not undeserving in 1996. Infact his situation was completely comparable to Fernando Alonso's this year and he handled it much better.

[Knick Pee]

kevin ritson said:

If Senna hadn't been killed at Imola he would have walked it.

absolute rubbish.

at the point he was killed, the williams car was struggling badly and Senna had not won that season. In fact the car was such a handful he had not even finished a race.

[stephen300o]

Technically I should have put a winking smilie on the end because I think all the winners deserve the trophy, or maybe said Villeneuve, just that anyone in the fastest car has only one man to beat.

[kevin ritson]

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

If Senna hadn't been killed at Imola he would have walked it.

absolute rubbish.

at the point he was killed, the williams car was struggling badly and Senna had not won that season. In fact the car was such a handful he had not even finished a race.

And Damon Hill took it to within an ace of the World Championship. Damon's a worthy champion but Senna was in another league, which is why Senna took that car to three poles, some way quicker than Hill, too. So it's not rubbish, I'm afraid.

[Knick Pee]

kevin ritson said:

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

If Senna hadn't been killed at Imola he would have walked it.

absolute rubbish.

at the point he was killed, the williams car was struggling badly and Senna had not won that season. In fact the car was such a handful he had not even finished a race.

And Damon Hill took it to within an ace of the World Championship. Damon's a worthy champion but Senna was in another league, which is why Senna took that car to three poles, some way quicker than Hill, too. So it's not rubbish, I'm afraid.

how can you say he would have walked it? It is rubbish. He hadn't scored a single point and it is well documented why. He left McLaren thinking the Williams would walk it, but truly shocked at how bad it was.

[stephen300o]

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

If Senna hadn't been killed at Imola he would have walked it.

absolute rubbish.

at the point he was killed, the williams car was struggling badly and Senna had not won that season. In fact the car was such a handful he had not even finished a race.

And Damon Hill took it to within an ace of the World Championship. Damon's a worthy champion but Senna was in another league, which is why Senna took that car to three poles, some way quicker than Hill, too. So it's not rubbish, I'm afraid.

how can you say he would have walked it? It is rubbish. He hadn't scored a single point and it is well documented why. He left McLaren thinking the Williams would walk it, but truly shocked at how bad it was.

The car didn't stay bad that year, once it was up to speed he wouldn't have hung about, he would have one the championship with races to spare, even Hill nearly one, you don't think Ayrton was better than Hill?

[r5gttgaz]

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

If Senna hadn't been killed at Imola he would have walked it.

absolute rubbish.

at the point he was killed, the williams car was struggling badly and Senna had not won that season. In fact the car was such a handful he had not even finished a race.

And Damon Hill took it to within an ace of the World Championship. Damon's a worthy champion but Senna was in another league, which is why Senna took that car to three poles, some way quicker than Hill, too. So it's not rubbish, I'm afraid.

how can you say he would have walked it? It is rubbish. He hadn't scored a single point and it is well documented why. He left McLaren thinking the Williams would walk it, but truly shocked at how bad it was.

I'm afraid you have committed the ultimate crime by slagging off Mr Senna on PH. Prost was a better driver than Senna, the Williams was so shit that season I'm surprised that Sennas crash wasn't suicide.

[Knick Pee]

r5gttgaz said:

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

Knick Pee said:

kevin ritson said:

If Senna hadn't been killed at Imola he would have walked it.

absolute rubbish.

at the point he was killed, the williams car was struggling badly and Senna had not won that season. In fact the car was such a handful he had not even finished a race.

And Damon Hill took it to within an ace of the World Championship. Damon's a worthy champion but Senna was in another league, which is why Senna took that car to three poles, some way quicker than Hill, too. So it's not rubbish, I'm afraid.

how can you say he would have walked it? It is rubbish. He hadn't scored a single point and it is well documented why. He left McLaren thinking the Williams would walk it, but truly shocked at how bad it was.

I'm afraid you have committed the ultimate crime by slagging off Mr Senna on PH. Prost was a better driver than Senna, the Williams was so shit that season I'm surprised that Sennas crash wasn't suicide.

I'm not slagging off Senna in the slightest. I consider him to be possibly the greatest. The point I'm making is.....to say he would have walked it is wrong. At the point of his death he had not scored a single point whilst Schumacher was romping away. It is impossible to make the statement "if he had lived he would have walked it". Maybe it was the car didn't suit his style and he would have struggled all season? Maybe the car did suit Hills style? We will never know.

What we do know is that Schumacher didn't deserve the title that year as he shunted Hill off, who was driving to an almost definite title.

Edited by Knick Pee on Thursday 13th December 08:35

[MrKipling43]

D_Mike said:

Oh yeah, Damon Hill, he's even worse than Lewis Hamiliton.

What on earth do you mean by that?!

[rubystone]

r5gttgaz said:

I'm afraid you have committed the ultimate crime by slagging off Mr Senna on PH. Prost was a better driver than Senna, the Williams was so shit that season I'm surprised that Sennas crash wasn't suicide.

OK. So I think we all agree that Senna was a better driver than Hill. The previous year he had demonstrated that with his skills, he could drag a less than competitive car to wins and podiums. Senna put the Williams on pole in Brazil and Aida. Add to that the fact that Hill put the car on pole and won in it in races where Schumacher took part (eg Germany - pole and Japan - win).

Given the above, I don't think it is unreasonable to extrapolate that Senna would have been up there fighting for the driver's championship that year.

[D_Mike]

MrKipling43 said:

D_Mike said:

Oh yeah, Damon Hill, he's even worse than Lewis Hamiliton.

What on earth do you mean by that?!

it was a dig at stephen3000ferrarigivemeahardon

[D_Mike]

stephen300o said:

Technically I should have put a winking smilie on the end because I think all the winners deserve the trophy, or maybe said Villeneuve, just that anyone in the fastest car has only one man to beat.

there is always a fastest car!

[RichB]

kevin ritson said:

stephen300o said:

Damon Hill.

Coming very close in a previous season, beating a future World Champion, nearly winning a race in an uncompetitive car, developing a car and posting that team's first win, in the top ten of most wins....makes a worthy champion in my book.

Indeed, people do post a load of "cock" on here. Damon would have been a double world champ had it not been for Schumacher punting him off, so hardly unworthy I really do wonder if some people are simply outrageously jealous of Brits who achieve something. So far a quick skim of this thread reveals that James Hunt and Damon Hill were "unworthy" yet no doubt the same people will be fawning over Heir Schumacher. Then there are the persistent Hamilton knockers. Not that I'm jingoistic but come on guys get real, all these guys would make most racing drivers look like muppets.

Edited by RichB on Thursday 13th December 10:52