What's stopping you giving motorsport a go?
Discussion
ewenm said:
RobM77 said:
pablo said:
Kickstart said:
All this business about time and money being the reason why people don't go racing is just a smoke screen. I started racing in a ropey old Formula First when I was in my late teens and funded that working all the hours as a delivery driver. I now have a family and run two business and still make the time for some racing each season. If I can do it anyone can.
As for giving Simon M a hard time about tuition or racing, get a life. He is one of the best in the business, see you at Spa on Sunday.
if time and money is a smokescreen, how can you then say "The reason why people don't do it is simply that when it comes down to it they do not have the commitment it takes, either in terms of money or time or both"....As for giving Simon M a hard time about tuition or racing, get a life. He is one of the best in the business, see you at Spa on Sunday.
i have no doubt that i will compete in motorsport, but it will be when i have the time and money to do it properly and do it well (not in terms of winning races but in terms of preperation and enjoying myself). I dont want be in a position where i am always in a rush to get things done and do them on a meagre budget which threatens reliability or credability. right now i have a new house to buy and a PHD to try and blag...
Finally getting on a track for me would kill the ghosts that still haunt me despite the years that have passed about how I could have been better than others at something.
This thread is obviously focused on circuit racing, but I'm more of a rally boy so I'll rant about that...
I do a bit of rallying. I drive and co-drive. As a driver I'm vaguely ok. I've got reasonably good car control and get reasonable results. I know I'm never going to be the next Marcus Gronholm, but I just don't care; I enjoy myself and that's really all that matters. I've wondered about getting some coaching, but I'm not the sort of person who responds well to that kind of thing and really can't be arsed. I can't imagine how it would make me enjoy the sport any more than i do now.
As a co-driver I've sat next to loads of people. Some are people who've been coached and coached and coached, and they're hopeless. Some have been driving since they were three and had priviledged upbringings that meant they had lots and lots of practise, and they've been coached. Some are good, most are hopeless. By far the quickest person I've ever sat in a car with is a good friend of mine, in fact he's the guy who built my rally car. He's had no tuition, has never had any spare money, and has only ever done three or four rallies in his life. If you asked him to explain the physics or theory behind left-foot braking or whatever, he wouldn't have a clue. But he can drive a car like nobody I've ever seen; he really is on a completely different level. Just properly astonishing to sit next to on a stage.
The late great Colin McRae was a natural, and of course was on a completely different level to my mate. Tuition? Yeah, right; that guy just knew how to drive a car and didn't need advice from anyone. About exercise, diet, tactics... of course he recieved help. But in terms of driving there's just no way.
I doubt you'll find many really great drivers (in circuit racing or whatever) who've had any tuition regarding how to drive a car; at the top of the sport the speed is entirely natural.
I do a bit of rallying. I drive and co-drive. As a driver I'm vaguely ok. I've got reasonably good car control and get reasonable results. I know I'm never going to be the next Marcus Gronholm, but I just don't care; I enjoy myself and that's really all that matters. I've wondered about getting some coaching, but I'm not the sort of person who responds well to that kind of thing and really can't be arsed. I can't imagine how it would make me enjoy the sport any more than i do now.
As a co-driver I've sat next to loads of people. Some are people who've been coached and coached and coached, and they're hopeless. Some have been driving since they were three and had priviledged upbringings that meant they had lots and lots of practise, and they've been coached. Some are good, most are hopeless. By far the quickest person I've ever sat in a car with is a good friend of mine, in fact he's the guy who built my rally car. He's had no tuition, has never had any spare money, and has only ever done three or four rallies in his life. If you asked him to explain the physics or theory behind left-foot braking or whatever, he wouldn't have a clue. But he can drive a car like nobody I've ever seen; he really is on a completely different level. Just properly astonishing to sit next to on a stage.
The late great Colin McRae was a natural, and of course was on a completely different level to my mate. Tuition? Yeah, right; that guy just knew how to drive a car and didn't need advice from anyone. About exercise, diet, tactics... of course he recieved help. But in terms of driving there's just no way.
I doubt you'll find many really great drivers (in circuit racing or whatever) who've had any tuition regarding how to drive a car; at the top of the sport the speed is entirely natural.
I think we're getting confused over various definitions of coaching - some keep driving coaching separate from mental, fitness and tactical coaching, others don't. I'm in the second camp; it's my coach's job to ensure I am as well prepared for my next race as possible, including mentally and tactically. I know plenty of runners that are quicker than me in training and yet I beat them in races because they go to pieces under the pressure - my coach and I work together to ensure that doesn't happen to me.
As some are saying, I'd be surprised if many top drivers get driving specific coaching (although in F1 for example, one team mate is usually quicker than the other, so doesn't the slower one need coaching to imitate the style of the faster one?) but I'd also be very surprised if they didn't get coached in the other aspects of their sport to a greater or lesser extent.
As some are saying, I'd be surprised if many top drivers get driving specific coaching (although in F1 for example, one team mate is usually quicker than the other, so doesn't the slower one need coaching to imitate the style of the faster one?) but I'd also be very surprised if they didn't get coached in the other aspects of their sport to a greater or lesser extent.
RT106 said:
I doubt you'll find many really great drivers (in circuit racing or whatever) who've had any tuition regarding how to drive a car; at the top of the sport the speed is entirely natural.
Dear oh dear!!so your telling us that Colin never sat next to his father... a significant rally driver in his own right, you telling us he never once listened to his father talking to mates as a kid and the mistakes he made and learn from them?
No mater how talented it takes a long time to focus talent in a direction where you can beat the next equally or even less talented person. Coaching comes in many forms all of which need experience the driver doesnt have at the time but is accumilating.
For sure after about 2 or 3 years most career focussed drivers stop with the direct coaching because they understand the core skills required and now its thier environment and experiences that get them to the next level.
When you drive for a proper professional team (always at great expense in the first instance) they work off data and experience so no hiding behind the car or budget anymore. Drivers in these teams also have the support of an engineer who has probably been around allot longer to help so in effect still coach but not as you would perhaps know it.
It all boils down to the simple fact that talent is useless without experience.
Edited to say that this doesnt mean everyone should have coaching because its all about goals, cost and expectations ultimately. These are just the cold hard facts of the sport.
Edited by Simon Mason on Wednesday 14th November 18:16
Simon Mason said:
RT106 said:
I doubt you'll find many really great drivers (in circuit racing or whatever) who've had any tuition regarding how to drive a car; at the top of the sport the speed is entirely natural.
Dear oh dear!!so your telling us that Colin never sat next to his father... a significant rally driver in his own right, you telling us he never once listened to his father talking to mates as a kid and the mistakes he made and learn from them?
No mater how talented it takes a long time to focus talent in a direction where you can beat the next equally or even less talented person. Coaching comes in many forms all of which need experience the driver doesnt have at the time but is accumilating.
For sure after about 2 or 3 years most career focussed drivers stop with the direct coaching because they understand the core skills required and now its thier environment and experiences that get them to the next level.
When you drive for a proper professional team (always at great expense in the first instance) they work off data and experience so no hiding behind the car or budget anymore. Drivers in these teams also have the support of an engineer who has probably been around allot longer to help so in effect still coach but not as you would perhaps know it.
It all boils down to the simple fact that talent is useless without experience.
Edited to say that this doesnt mean everyone should have coaching because its all about goals, cost and expectations ultimately. These are just the cold hard facts of the sport.
Edited by Simon Mason on Wednesday 14th November 18:16
Schumacher (Michael, not Ralf...) has had a driving coach for most of his career. There's a rumour that he still has a driving coach - despite being retired.
I live near Bruntingthorpe in Leicester, and have seen, with own two wonky eyes, world class Formula 1 drivers getting coaching on the proving grounds there. There's one specific bloke who does LOT of coaching for F1 drivers. Coulthard, Raikkonen, Hamilton, etc. He also coached Bruno Senna through FBMW and BF3 where his results where pretty good for someone who stopped racing for nearly 10 years after the death of his uncle.
Coaching works. End of story. Every outstanding F1 driver of the last ten years has benefitted from a driver coach. Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton, Alonso, Deletraz, the list goes on.
If it works for a world class F1 driver, just imagine how much it could benefit the average clubbie???
GarrettMacD said:
Simon Mason said:
RT106 said:
I doubt you'll find many really great drivers (in circuit racing or whatever) who've had any tuition regarding how to drive a car; at the top of the sport the speed is entirely natural.
Dear oh dear!!so your telling us that Colin never sat next to his father... a significant rally driver in his own right, you telling us he never once listened to his father talking to mates as a kid and the mistakes he made and learn from them?
No mater how talented it takes a long time to focus talent in a direction where you can beat the next equally or even less talented person. Coaching comes in many forms all of which need experience the driver doesnt have at the time but is accumilating.
For sure after about 2 or 3 years most career focussed drivers stop with the direct coaching because they understand the core skills required and now its thier environment and experiences that get them to the next level.
When you drive for a proper professional team (always at great expense in the first instance) they work off data and experience so no hiding behind the car or budget anymore. Drivers in these teams also have the support of an engineer who has probably been around allot longer to help so in effect still coach but not as you would perhaps know it.
It all boils down to the simple fact that talent is useless without experience.
Edited to say that this doesnt mean everyone should have coaching because its all about goals, cost and expectations ultimately. These are just the cold hard facts of the sport.
Edited by Simon Mason on Wednesday 14th November 18:16
Schumacher (Michael, not Ralf...) has had a driving coach for most of his career. There's a rumour that he still has a driving coach - despite being retired.
I live near Bruntingthorpe in Leicester, and have seen, with own two wonky eyes, world class Formula 1 drivers getting coaching on the proving grounds there. There's one specific bloke who does LOT of coaching for F1 drivers. Coulthard, Raikkonen, Hamilton, etc. He also coached Bruno Senna through FBMW and BF3 where his results where pretty good for someone who stopped racing for nearly 10 years after the death of his uncle.
Coaching works. End of story. Every outstanding F1 driver of the last ten years has benefitted from a driver coach. Schumacher, Hakkinen, Hamilton, Alonso, Deletraz, the list goes on.
If it works for a world class F1 driver, just imagine how much it could benefit the average clubbie???
Mike I know where your comming from but we did'nt design the forum.
One sentence after another invetably means it will take strong directions that are loosely linked and then snow ball to not directly relevant to loosing the thread all together and into a new one.
Still it passes the time while the Stew and dumplings cook
One sentence after another invetably means it will take strong directions that are loosely linked and then snow ball to not directly relevant to loosing the thread all together and into a new one.
Still it passes the time while the Stew and dumplings cook
Holy muffins - it's a great read and various ramblings despite the point being somewhat lost within the wrong forum (in a general motoring environment, I'd have hoped that it encouraged a couple of people to don gloves & helmet before plonking themselves behind the wheel/bars of a race-plated vehicle but with the majority of new postings being coaching related...let's start one on that and leave space in this to understand why people don't start (or perhaps just stop)?!
M.
M.
mjracing,
I'm with you. Actually by way of background. I watched some karting as a student which looked brill.The first thing I did with virtually my first pay cheque when I started work was buy a 100 national kart(no idea whether thet still exist)Was in a flat at the time so kept it in the bedroom (bit smelly)and then strapped it to the roof of my Nova to get to the race meets. Fantastic fun but somehow along the way a morgage/wife/new wife/kids distracted me. I was 39 before I made the effort to get back into motor racing and that was 6 years ago. Big regret for me that I didn't get into it earlier as it's been a huge amount of adrenalin packed fun and I've made some fantastic mates along the way. There is a wide spread of ages 17-60+ in the series but I hugley admire everyone who has found a way to do it and some with very little money as well. I've as much respect-perhaps more for the guys at the back of the grid. Without them there would be no winners and they do it because they enjoy it not because they expect to be on the podium. The reality is that club motorsport is about participation, the chance to compete and to live the dream of actually racing on the circuits you see on the telly. I didn't think I'd ever race at Spa-but I have now-6 races in total and it was just awesome.
Anyway, the point really is that if you want to do it you will find a way, if you are only half hearted you will be able to come up with a 1001 reasons why you can't. I figured out(in the end)that it's not a dress rehearsal and I don't want to be wishing I'd done this or that in years to come.
I'm with you. Actually by way of background. I watched some karting as a student which looked brill.The first thing I did with virtually my first pay cheque when I started work was buy a 100 national kart(no idea whether thet still exist)Was in a flat at the time so kept it in the bedroom (bit smelly)and then strapped it to the roof of my Nova to get to the race meets. Fantastic fun but somehow along the way a morgage/wife/new wife/kids distracted me. I was 39 before I made the effort to get back into motor racing and that was 6 years ago. Big regret for me that I didn't get into it earlier as it's been a huge amount of adrenalin packed fun and I've made some fantastic mates along the way. There is a wide spread of ages 17-60+ in the series but I hugley admire everyone who has found a way to do it and some with very little money as well. I've as much respect-perhaps more for the guys at the back of the grid. Without them there would be no winners and they do it because they enjoy it not because they expect to be on the podium. The reality is that club motorsport is about participation, the chance to compete and to live the dream of actually racing on the circuits you see on the telly. I didn't think I'd ever race at Spa-but I have now-6 races in total and it was just awesome.
Anyway, the point really is that if you want to do it you will find a way, if you are only half hearted you will be able to come up with a 1001 reasons why you can't. I figured out(in the end)that it's not a dress rehearsal and I don't want to be wishing I'd done this or that in years to come.
SuperKartRacer said:
what a top post
This is partly what keeps me going, even though my parents are telling me to give up and "settle down". I keep meeting people who "used to race". I don't want to be a person who "used to race", I want to be a person that races and enjoys every year of my life properly. I should also say that to be totally honest it's not all just about participation for me. First and foremost I love the feeling of driving a car on the limit - I find the whole process very absorbing and satisfying - that's what keeps me coming back. However, I am competitive and I do want to do well. I'm the sort of person who will be out cycling/running and race people that overtake me 
When I'm swimming I'll often wait for someone else to push off so I can race them for a length or two (they're probably unaware of this, although I have spotted people doing it with me). I'm not a bad loser, and love sport regardless, but I do enjoy a bit of competition RobM77 said:
SuperKartRacer said:
what a top post
This is partly what keeps me going, even though my parents are telling me to give up and "settle down". I keep meeting people who "used to race". I don't want to be a person who "used to race", I want to be a person that races and enjoys every year of my life properly. I should also say that to be totally honest it's not all just about participation for me. First and foremost I love the feeling of driving a car on the limit - I find the whole process very absorbing and satisfying - that's what keeps me coming back. However, I am competitive and I do want to do well. I'm the sort of person who will be out cycling/running and race people that overtake me When I'm swimming I'll often wait for someone else to push off so I can race them for a length or two (they're probably unaware of this, although I have spotted people doing it with me). I'm not a bad loser, and love sport regardless, but I do enjoy a bit of competition I find it also helps with ADHD and I only ever feel at rest when driving flat out, it's a bit like a drug for me, sadly I also do that on the road but am as foolish as I used to be... how I'm still alive
I don't know.....
Anyway.... 33 with 3 kids and a huge mortgage but still time and cash for karting and single seaters, only cus I work fookin hard :-) there is always a way
SuperKartRacer said:
RobM77 said:
SuperKartRacer said:
what a top post
This is partly what keeps me going, even though my parents are telling me to give up and "settle down". I keep meeting people who "used to race". I don't want to be a person who "used to race", I want to be a person that races and enjoys every year of my life properly. I should also say that to be totally honest it's not all just about participation for me. First and foremost I love the feeling of driving a car on the limit - I find the whole process very absorbing and satisfying - that's what keeps me coming back. However, I am competitive and I do want to do well. I'm the sort of person who will be out cycling/running and race people that overtake me When I'm swimming I'll often wait for someone else to push off so I can race them for a length or two (they're probably unaware of this, although I have spotted people doing it with me). I'm not a bad loser, and love sport regardless, but I do enjoy a bit of competition I find it also helps with ADHD and I only ever feel at rest when driving flat out, it's a bit like a drug for me, sadly I also do that on the road but am as foolish as I used to be... how I'm still alive
I don't know.....
Anyway.... 33 with 3 kids and a huge mortgage but still time and cash for karting and single seaters, only cus I work fookin hard :-) there is always a way
I don't even bother braking half the time, I just back off before corners instead. What I do enjoy on the road though is the experience of driving and the feedback I'm getting from the car. I like to try and keep the car balanced at all times, just like you'd do on a track, but at lower speed. I find you can feel 60% of the limit just as effectively as you can feel 100% of the limit, and it's strangely satisfying to get that right too I know what you mean about driving flat out. It instills a strange sort of focus and calm which is rather nice
RobM77 said:
zac510 said:
Anybody care to advise me? Budget is a few grand. Trying not to make it a 205 stock hatch...!
There are plenty of championships where you can drive to the circuit, and I know people that do it, but rarely is such a philosophhy wise or competitive. Soft racing tyres are going to wear out pretty quickly, the car will be pretty loud without any sound deadening in it, and of course there's what to do in the event of an accident. You've also got the issue of the tools that you'd need at the track and where to put them or secure them whilst you're on track. A lot of racing championships don't allow steering lock or door locking pins, so this will compromise your car's security if it's parked in the road. I'd say your best bet, given what you say about 'experiencing' tracks, is not to run in a hotly contested racing championship with strict homologation rules, rathermore in a more open sprint or hillclimb style series. These are purely my thoughts given what you've said - anything is possible! The other alternative is "arrive and drive". This needn't be mega bucks with a big team - plenty of ordinary guys who can't afford to do every meeting in a championship hire out their car for the odd race to another club racer.
I guess my original point about the stock hatch was not so much to race in the series but rather to get a good deal on a pre-prepared car that is common and has strong aftermarket support and can be setup to handle well. Resale might even be OK, too!
How flexible do you think a stock hatch would be if I wanted to do a hillclimb, sprint, trackday, stages rally, etc. Would it be ineligible in a class in these series? (This is a question to all, I don't expect you to know the rules for all of those series Rob!)
zac510 said:
RobM77 said:
zac510 said:
Anybody care to advise me? Budget is a few grand. Trying not to make it a 205 stock hatch...!
There are plenty of championships where you can drive to the circuit, and I know people that do it, but rarely is such a philosophhy wise or competitive. Soft racing tyres are going to wear out pretty quickly, the car will be pretty loud without any sound deadening in it, and of course there's what to do in the event of an accident. You've also got the issue of the tools that you'd need at the track and where to put them or secure them whilst you're on track. A lot of racing championships don't allow steering lock or door locking pins, so this will compromise your car's security if it's parked in the road. I'd say your best bet, given what you say about 'experiencing' tracks, is not to run in a hotly contested racing championship with strict homologation rules, rathermore in a more open sprint or hillclimb style series. These are purely my thoughts given what you've said - anything is possible! The other alternative is "arrive and drive". This needn't be mega bucks with a big team - plenty of ordinary guys who can't afford to do every meeting in a championship hire out their car for the odd race to another club racer.
I guess my original point about the stock hatch was not so much to race in the series but rather to get a good deal on a pre-prepared car that is common and has strong aftermarket support and can be setup to handle well. Resale might even be OK, too!
How flexible do you think a stock hatch would be if I wanted to do a hillclimb, sprint, trackday, stages rally, etc. Would it be ineligible in a class in these series? (This is a question to all, I don't expect you to know the rules for all of those series Rob!)
I know i've extolled the virtues of it before but if you want a vfm series then www.fiatracing.com still gives an appeal - give Alan Jones an email on sadfiatman@aol.com and he can always put one of the regional reps at your disposal. Although I'm currently budget-busting with Sports/GT cars - i'd be back there like a shot if the sponsorship package wasn't stacking up...And i'm more than happy to put you in touch with a number of people who'll help getting setup data/etc.
Drop Al a line and hopefully it'll take away any reason to give it a blat...
Drop Al a line and hopefully it'll take away any reason to give it a blat...
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