RE: F1's Button wants to stay at BAR

[JonRB]

Anyone watching the F1 coverage? Interesting comments from all parties.

[flemke]

Yes, Button's made clear that the only thing that matters to him is: me Me ME!

[JonRB]

Indeed.

I thought Montoya's and Villeneuve's comments pretty much summed it up - you sign a contract and you're bound by it. End of.

I do think some of the comments that Button has been naive are probably valid.

[rushdriver]

I agree, Button signed the contract and so therefore should either stick to it or buy himself out (££££££££££)

Frank Williams made the point yesterday, by saying that he has sponsership deals lined up for next year that need Jenson to be driving for Williams.

The cost of Button not going to Williams could/probably will run in millions of £'s


Cheers

John

[55jnj]

flemke said:

Button's bigger mistake has been in being perfidious. When he was at Renault he performed mediocrely. David Richards threw Button a lifeline when he gave him a ride in a BAR. As Button's stock rose in '04, his handlers thought that they had found a loophole in his contract that would allow him to drive for someone else in '05, even though both parties had intended for the contract to apply until '06. The loophole related to whether BAR had managed to secure a manufacturers' engine deal by a certain date. As we know, the CRB ruled that BAR had secured the engine deal in time and that therefore Button was obliged to drive for them in '05. The damning fact for Button is that he and his handlers made no attempt to ascertain whether the engine deal had been secured: Button didn't leave BAR reluctantly because they had no engine deal, he left them because he wanted to serve himself, and he hoped that they had no engine deal. The fact that David Richards had given him a drive when no other leading team would do so didn't matter to him. In forming our opinions about Jenson Button and loyalty, let's be mindful of the difference between coincidence and causality. As others on this thread have observed, world-class athletes (and high-achievers in all realms) need to be relentlessly driven and extraordinarily motivated. The people who are like that also tend to be quite ruthless and totally selfish. You do not, however, have to be quite ruthless and totally selfish in order to succeed. Rather, those things simply make success more likely. Jenson Button's had a choice - twice. On both occasions he's proved himself to be a pathetic little man.

Very eloquently put Flemke.

Agree, without qualification.

FW's contract would appear to be rock-solid. JB's word would appear not to be. JB could however prove be a PR liability for Williams if FW does enforce the contract. FW should therefore play hard-ball on negotiations with BAR & get the highest possible contractual buy-out of the contract he can.

In that way everyone wins (except maybe BAR's bank account).

JB's an OK driver but not IMHO world championship material. What's he actually proved in 6 years or so apart from the fact he's an unreliable young man who certainly doesn't think twice about wriggling out of something he's actually already agreed to ?

Wouldn't be so bad if he was able to string a few words together that made sense, when asked a question. The non English speaking drivers make more sense & offer more sensible opinions when asked even vaguely technical questions.

[flemke]

If it wasn't clear before why ITV tolerated the inanity of James Allen (and it wasn't), we may have got an unintended clue to the answer today.
In ITV's text-message poll, 57% of the respondents endorsed poor little Jensey's spoiled-brat attempt to weasel out of his legal and moral obligations to work for Williams next year (at slave wages of £500,000 a month, the poor lad).
If such a high percentage of the programme's viewers are ignorant and undiscriminating enough to support Button's shameless disloyalty, it's entirely possible that they are thick enough to think that Allen is competent.

[kevinday]

My tske on it is that JB should drive for Williams, but, do not discount EU law that states you cannot force a person to work for somebody they do not want to work for, also unfair contract terms do most definitely apply to employment law, but I have no idea whether this is applicable here.

[Le TVR]

A lot of comment on TF1 before the race that Barichello has 'all but signed' for BAR. And that JB will 'definitely' go to Williams.

Who knows??

[Gruffy]

Could anybody see Sir Stirling or Fangio going back on a handshake (let alone a signature) back in the day?

I admire JBs determination to win a title, but I'd admire him even more for honouring his word to the detriment of his success!

Gruffy

[richardthestag]

Next year, new engine configurations.

Hopefully

New aero package.

This is surely going to wipe the slate clean for a lot of the teams.

BAR were great last year, this year they are ok but if all the renaults / mclarens' finish the best Jensen can hope for is 5th.

I think the man is a tw@t, I thought he was a badly advised tw@t last year..

Williams aligned with whatever engine package they can get together, Cosworth?!?, next year stand as good a chance as anyone else, especially seeing as they already have the fabled wind tunnel for new aero design.

I would love to see him sitting on the sidelines sulking while some of the new talent that we saw in the run up to yesterdays "parade" are given a chance.

[flemke]

kevinday said:

My tske on it is that JB should drive for Williams, but, do not discount EU law that states you cannot force a person to work for somebody they do not want to work for, also unfair contract terms do most definitely apply to employment law, but I have no idea whether this is applicable here.

I don't know EU employment law, but Button did sign a contract, and not even a disingenuous sophist like Max Mosley could argue that Button and his expensive advisors were a bunch of innocents who had been duped into signing that contract.
Williams may not be able to force Button to drive for them, but I guarantee you that they can have Button enjoined from driving for their competitors. For Button the one worse thing than driving for Williams would surely be not to drive at all.

[JonRB]

flemke said:

Williams may not be able to force Button to drive for them, but I guarantee you that they can have Button enjoined from driving for their competitors. For Button the one worse thing than driving for Williams would surely be not to drive at all.

Indeed. That certainly seems like a possible outcome.

[rubystone]

JonRB said:

flemke said: Williams may not be able to force Button to drive for them, but I guarantee you that they can have Button enjoined from driving for their competitors. For Button the one worse thing than driving for Williams would surely be not to drive at all. Indeed. That certainly seems like a possible outcome.

Now that really is in breach of EU law. Button could then successfully argue that this condition would damage his profile and therefore his opportunity to earn a living in an industry where, he could easily argue, reputations are made and lost in an instant.

Button's argument that no team wants a driver who doesn't want to drive for them was trotted out last year when he was forced to stay at BAR - I don't recall him uttering one word of complaint about that this year, despite having been given plenty of opportunity to whinge to the media.

Fangio is an interesting case in point - his impressive results stem from the fact that he always ensured that he drove for the best team. Button could argue the same I guess.....

[david_s]

In my opinion, Button's public statements are a negotiating ploy to encourage Frank Williams to accept an offer from BAR/Honda to buy his contract. All of the teams have drivers under contract and if Button was allowed to walk away from a valid contract it would cause anarchy in the pit lane. Button will either drive for Williams next year or Williams will release him from his contract in return for a lot of money.

As far as reputations are concerned, Button is not doing his any good at all.

[flemke]

rubystone said:

JonRB said: flemke said: Williams may not be able to force Button to drive for them, but I guarantee you that they can have Button enjoined from driving for their competitors. For Button the one worse thing than driving for Williams would surely be not to drive at all. Indeed. That certainly seems like a possible outcome. Now that really is in breach of EU law. Button could then successfully argue that this condition would damage his profile and therefore his opportunity to earn a living in an industry where, he could easily argue, reputations are made and lost in an instant.

Rubystone,

Sorry, are you saying that it really would be in breach of EU law for Williams to get an injunction preventing Button from ignoring his obligation to drive for them and instead competing against them, directly contrary to their economic interests?
How would that work? The guy made a binding commitment to drive for one team, that team went out and committed to sponsors on the basis that Button would be driving for them, that team passed up opportunities to sign other drivers on the basis that its 2006 lineup was set, and then the guy walks away because he thinks that he would be better off driving for someone else.
It's one thing that Williams cannot enforce the contract to the extent that it could require Button to risk his life by driving their race car. In any event, Wittle Jensey could always say that he had a tummy ache and wasn't fit to drive on the day. That's reality.
There is no way, however, that Button could flout his commitment to Williams by driving for someone else and against them. What would his argument be - I think the BAR's aerodynamic package is likely to be 3% better than the Williams's, so my contract's voided? Sorry, but that's not going to cut any ice.

Maybe I misunderstand your point.

[rubystone]

No Flemke, what I'm saying is that if Williams "forced" him to sign with them and then they sidelined him, he could take them to court under the EU Human Rights Act (or whatever it's caused) on the basis that their actions are affecting his image and therefore (future) ability to earn a living.

Now I know that he is being paid by them and therefore they are technically within their rights to employ (or not employ) him as they see fit, but I am sure that his contract will stipulate that he is a "race" driver and as such employed to "race", not sit around on his arse in Monaco.

Any PHers around with intimate knowledge of this EU act?

[TonyToniTone]

I would be suprised if button can get out of this as the CRB have the power not to issue him a new superlicense and then he couldnt drive for anyone..

[mr clive]

I try to like Button, he is english and he seems a good driver but he just comes across as a self serving, dishonorable, disloyal moaner. He has signed a contract and while im sure the lawyers will be able to find some obscure clause that will mean he doesnt have to race for williams I dont see why he wont honor it at least begrudgingly.

He claims that BAR Honda are his best chance to become champion next season but I dont get the impression they will be in the running no matter how good his driving is (thats not a critisism against them, just how I see things panning out next year)

He could go to williams, keep his nose clean, put in some good performances and maybe move back to BAR or another front runner in the season after. Granted he would be unlikely to be in the running for the champtionship next season but at least he would have been able to command a little respect from the other teams, drivers and more importantly the fans.

all IMO of course

[rubystone]

Doesn't the FIA issue Superlicences?

I bet Button's Williams contract is a multi-year one - that's probably why he's looking to wriggle out...

[dds1]

I'm sure if Frank wanted, he could offer a 2 year deferral of the contract, thus enabling Button his shot at the title (if he believes it will happen) and JB's services at a time when Williams are more likely to better benefit from them (assuming Frank knows the next 2 years will be spent trying to get back to the pointy end of the grid)

Maybe even in return for a works engine?

Everyone wins?




>> Edited by dds1 on Monday 1st August 15:43