Senna over rated
Discussion
Senna's record of pole positions is something special. His conversion rate of poles to wins, fastest laps or points is not special at all, quite ordinary in fact IIRC.
Prost has a far greater record of fastest race laps. It is the race car that scores the wins or points not the qually car.
Prost has a far greater record of fastest race laps. It is the race car that scores the wins or points not the qually car.
heebeegeetee said:
Senna's record of pole positions is something special. His conversion rate of poles to wins, fastest laps or points is not special at all, quite ordinary in fact IIRC.
Prost has a far greater record of fastest race laps. It is the race car that scores the wins or points not the qually car.
Senna and Prost have virtually identical stats in terms of GP wins and podiums, with around 25% win and 50% podium finishes (to total GP's).Prost has a far greater record of fastest race laps. It is the race car that scores the wins or points not the qually car.
Obviously Senna's pole record was a lot higher, an astonishing 40% to Prost's 16%.
As with all stats there are many other factors, particularly the years spent in a car that is better, or at least as good as, that of the competition.
Edited to add, the conversion rate of pole to win I'm not so sure about, but to get a good ratio on that front Senna would have had to have won a hell of a lot of races
Edited by micky g on Monday 26th November 10:12
DJRC said:
Yes and no. He is on record somewhere as saying that Moss, Clark and Fangio were the best all round drivers he had ever seen, but then he also admits he will always have a natural bias to Moss. I agree that he used to hate the narrow minded approach of the best F1 driver. DSJ always regarded motorsport as a whole.
Roebuck is similar but he always defaults to Gilles as the idol he worships on whilst accepting his limitations in the wider scheme of things.
My natural inclination is to with DSJ and Moss. Nobody was as good as Moss in such a wide range of vehicles, not even Clark.
The Senna thing is because he could and do go into that "beyond the red zone" thing on a frequent basis. He went to 11 more than anyone else and he had the skill and self belief to do so. All "the best" had that ability and they all demonstrated it at various points, but none of them went there so frequently, prefering to drive at 9. 9.5 and 10. The danger of death in the "pre-Senna" days always ensured there was that healthy respect of said zone where you went by the invitation of Lady Luck and didnt linger nor visit too often. Fangio only went there a few times after his greatest races admits to not knowing how he did it, nor wanting to remember or know and that it scared the crap out of him just trying to remember. How often do we think Moss could replicate the 55 Mille Miglia? DSJ stated they were gonners a few times but for sheer luck such was Moss's speed and committment beyond anything that DSJ considered either possible or comprehendable. JYS and Clark could both go into that zone at will and indeed JYS even seemed to indulge in a bizarre form of masochism where he would try to venture in there the worse conditions got. Both stated they loathed and detested such driving.
Prost probably called it right with the most perceptive comment of all. Ayrton has a small problem...he thinks he cant kill himself because he believes in God.
Senna is worshipped because he went to the well more often than anybody else. He is also dead because of it and Ill be damned if anybody tells me he wasnt in 110% mode at Imola.
Excellent summation of my views on Senna and why he died. God must have been otherwise engaged that day.Roebuck is similar but he always defaults to Gilles as the idol he worships on whilst accepting his limitations in the wider scheme of things.
My natural inclination is to with DSJ and Moss. Nobody was as good as Moss in such a wide range of vehicles, not even Clark.
The Senna thing is because he could and do go into that "beyond the red zone" thing on a frequent basis. He went to 11 more than anyone else and he had the skill and self belief to do so. All "the best" had that ability and they all demonstrated it at various points, but none of them went there so frequently, prefering to drive at 9. 9.5 and 10. The danger of death in the "pre-Senna" days always ensured there was that healthy respect of said zone where you went by the invitation of Lady Luck and didnt linger nor visit too often. Fangio only went there a few times after his greatest races admits to not knowing how he did it, nor wanting to remember or know and that it scared the crap out of him just trying to remember. How often do we think Moss could replicate the 55 Mille Miglia? DSJ stated they were gonners a few times but for sheer luck such was Moss's speed and committment beyond anything that DSJ considered either possible or comprehendable. JYS and Clark could both go into that zone at will and indeed JYS even seemed to indulge in a bizarre form of masochism where he would try to venture in there the worse conditions got. Both stated they loathed and detested such driving.
Prost probably called it right with the most perceptive comment of all. Ayrton has a small problem...he thinks he cant kill himself because he believes in God.
Senna is worshipped because he went to the well more often than anybody else. He is also dead because of it and Ill be damned if anybody tells me he wasnt in 110% mode at Imola.
I think it was Sennas absolute self-belief and faith in God that made up a good part of what he was - and very few people have that to the extent he had - people who knew him well often describe him as 'other wordly'. When you hear him describe his 'out of body experience' during THAT Monaco lap you can almost feel the self belief in his voice.
It is implied in interviews (and Sid Watkins book) that Senna believed the time of his death was sort of pre-ordained, and there was nothing he could do that would hasten it or delay it - when his time was up that was it. That absolute confidence was, I am sure, a good part of why he drove like he did and took so many risks with his own life (and others at times).
Of course he was seriously flawed - as are so many who are touched by genius - but that doesn't make him any less of a driver. It is impossible to compare drivers of different cars and different eras - he was unquestionably the most gifted of his time.
Had be lived BTW I get the feeling from what I have read that he would have walked away from racing, and devoted himself to philanthropic works. As time passes I cannot see anything other than the myth and mystique increasing, rightly or wrongly. For many people (me included I guess) his 'greatness' is less to do with the statistics, points won, races lost etc - and much more to do with him as a person and those special moments of driving he displayed.
It is implied in interviews (and Sid Watkins book) that Senna believed the time of his death was sort of pre-ordained, and there was nothing he could do that would hasten it or delay it - when his time was up that was it. That absolute confidence was, I am sure, a good part of why he drove like he did and took so many risks with his own life (and others at times).
Of course he was seriously flawed - as are so many who are touched by genius - but that doesn't make him any less of a driver. It is impossible to compare drivers of different cars and different eras - he was unquestionably the most gifted of his time.
Had be lived BTW I get the feeling from what I have read that he would have walked away from racing, and devoted himself to philanthropic works. As time passes I cannot see anything other than the myth and mystique increasing, rightly or wrongly. For many people (me included I guess) his 'greatness' is less to do with the statistics, points won, races lost etc - and much more to do with him as a person and those special moments of driving he displayed.
I have a second theory on the "speed" of Prost and by extension in relation to Senna. In the early 80s Prost wasnt just "better" he was head and shoulders quicker than anybody else. Its a bit of a vague time in the history books, not much discussed on here beyond Derek's worshipping of Piquet and the BMW turbo unit. Was is usually forgotten is that Prost was blisteringly quick and that La Reggie butchered 2-3 Championship chances for him.
Then he went to Macca and teamed up with Lauda. It is my theory that those two yrs turned Prost from the guy who was essentially a third of a second quicker than anybody else in the field, into the Professor. Lauda is on record as saying that Prost's sheer speed scared the crap out of him when he turned up and there was no way he could compete with that, only by using brain and racecraft. I think those 2 yrs with Lauda not only taught Prost to dial his outright speed back and use racecraft more but he saw Lauda up close and personal, physically and mentally. The hardest b
d ever to step into a motorcar gave him an up close and personal tutorial in how to ride the line and the consequences of the other side...
I think the Lauda influence had an unmeasurable effect upon Prost in a way that Senna could never experience or comprehend until the RR incident at Imola. In the 24hrs after that fatal accident, Senna got Prost's 2 yrs experience with Lauda in a crash course. The mental and emotional affects must have been overloading.
Then he went to Macca and teamed up with Lauda. It is my theory that those two yrs turned Prost from the guy who was essentially a third of a second quicker than anybody else in the field, into the Professor. Lauda is on record as saying that Prost's sheer speed scared the crap out of him when he turned up and there was no way he could compete with that, only by using brain and racecraft. I think those 2 yrs with Lauda not only taught Prost to dial his outright speed back and use racecraft more but he saw Lauda up close and personal, physically and mentally. The hardest b
d ever to step into a motorcar gave him an up close and personal tutorial in how to ride the line and the consequences of the other side... I think the Lauda influence had an unmeasurable effect upon Prost in a way that Senna could never experience or comprehend until the RR incident at Imola. In the 24hrs after that fatal accident, Senna got Prost's 2 yrs experience with Lauda in a crash course. The mental and emotional affects must have been overloading.
I think quite simply that many people overrate Senna and underrate Prost for entirely emotional reasons. Both were true greats , one made more mistakes than the other, but he was the same one who had ultimate pace, rather than race winning brilliance. Both stood head and shoulders above their peers, Mansell and Piquet included I think- but I won't throw a hissy fit if you disagree.
rdjohn said:
I recall Senna once saying "if you think that I am fast; then you want to see my young nephew"
His nephew ain't that fast in the great scheme of things.
I think it is best just to say the greatest of their era. Even Shuey looked slow against the Playstation generation.
Harsh. Bruno was robbed of his speed after his uncles death because his family stopped him from racing, lost a good ten years I think. Trading on his uncles name? most definately. I'd still like to see him in a car next year. It's a case of what should have been.His nephew ain't that fast in the great scheme of things.
I think it is best just to say the greatest of their era. Even Shuey looked slow against the Playstation generation.
DJRC said:
I have a second theory on the "speed" of Prost and by extension in relation to Senna. In the early 80s Prost wasnt just "better" he was head and shoulders quicker than anybody else. Its a bit of a vague time in the history books, not much discussed on here beyond Derek's worshipping of Piquet and the BMW turbo unit. Was is usually forgotten is that Prost was blisteringly quick and that La Reggie butchered 2-3 Championship chances for him.
Then he went to Macca and teamed up with Lauda. It is my theory that those two yrs turned Prost from the guy who was essentially a third of a second quicker than anybody else in the field, into the Professor. Lauda is on record as saying that Prost's sheer speed scared the crap out of him when he turned up and there was no way he could compete with that, only by using brain and racecraft. I think those 2 yrs with Lauda not only taught Prost to dial his outright speed back and use racecraft more but he saw Lauda up close and personal, physically and mentally. The hardest bd ever to step into a motorcar gave him an up close and personal tutorial in how to ride the line and the consequences of the other side...
I think the Lauda influence had an unmeasurable effect upon Prost in a way that Senna could never experience or comprehend until the RR incident at Imola. In the 24hrs after that fatal accident, Senna got Prost's 2 yrs experience with Lauda in a crash course. The mental and emotional affects must have been overloading.
I think this is all true to an extent, though Prost was a first hand witness to Villeneuve's crash, and Pironi's, and he cites these as the motivation behind his win at the slowest possible pace approach. He certainly seemed to learn how to apply this in his time at McLaren with Lauda, though.Then he went to Macca and teamed up with Lauda. It is my theory that those two yrs turned Prost from the guy who was essentially a third of a second quicker than anybody else in the field, into the Professor. Lauda is on record as saying that Prost's sheer speed scared the crap out of him when he turned up and there was no way he could compete with that, only by using brain and racecraft. I think those 2 yrs with Lauda not only taught Prost to dial his outright speed back and use racecraft more but he saw Lauda up close and personal, physically and mentally. The hardest b
d ever to step into a motorcar gave him an up close and personal tutorial in how to ride the line and the consequences of the other side... I think the Lauda influence had an unmeasurable effect upon Prost in a way that Senna could never experience or comprehend until the RR incident at Imola. In the 24hrs after that fatal accident, Senna got Prost's 2 yrs experience with Lauda in a crash course. The mental and emotional affects must have been overloading.
Keke Rosberg is also on record saying he thought he was fast, until he became Prost's teammate. He was so amazed at Prost's pace that he predicted that Prost was going to beat Senna easily at McLaren. He couldn't imagine that Senna could possibly be even faster.
marshall100 said:
rdjohn said:
I recall Senna once saying "if you think that I am fast; then you want to see my young nephew"
His nephew ain't that fast in the great scheme of things.
I think it is best just to say the greatest of their era. Even Shuey looked slow against the Playstation generation.
Harsh. Bruno was robbed of his speed after his uncles death because his family stopped him from racing, lost a good ten years I think. Trading on his uncles name? most definately. I'd still like to see him in a car next year. It's a case of what should have been.His nephew ain't that fast in the great scheme of things.
I think it is best just to say the greatest of their era. Even Shuey looked slow against the Playstation generation.
Alfanatic said:
marshall100 said:
rdjohn said:
I recall Senna once saying "if you think that I am fast; then you want to see my young nephew"
His nephew ain't that fast in the great scheme of things.
I think it is best just to say the greatest of their era. Even Shuey looked slow against the Playstation generation.
Harsh. Bruno was robbed of his speed after his uncles death because his family stopped him from racing, lost a good ten years I think. Trading on his uncles name? most definately. I'd still like to see him in a car next year. It's a case of what should have been.His nephew ain't that fast in the great scheme of things.
I think it is best just to say the greatest of their era. Even Shuey looked slow against the Playstation generation.
People keep calling him a cheat, I havnt seen that so much.
Could some of the older fans who have seen Senna 'back in the day', show me some footage of this cheating, or give me some examples. I know the film Senna was criticised for be very bias by some on this site, so more info on his bad side would be great.
Could some of the older fans who have seen Senna 'back in the day', show me some footage of this cheating, or give me some examples. I know the film Senna was criticised for be very bias by some on this site, so more info on his bad side would be great.
Fantuzzi said:
People keep calling him a cheat, I havnt seen that so much.
Could some of the older fans who have seen Senna 'back in the day', show me some footage of this cheating, or give me some examples. I know the film Senna was criticised for be very bias by some on this site, so more info on his bad side would be great.
I think cheat is perhaps not quite the right word but he certainly pioneered an aggressive approach that seemed to make contact acceptable in what should (IMO) be a non-contact sport. Probably the most extreme example was Suzuka 1990 where by his own admission he decided that if Prost got the jump on him at the start he'd simply take him out at the first corner; that he duly did and in the process risked his own life, that of Prost and also showed little regard for the safety of the other drivers following closely behind at around 150mph. In the circumstances it was probably the most dangerous and unsporting piece of driving I've ever seen in over 30 years of watching F1 and it's that sort of thing that makes it difficult for me to give Senna the sort of adulation that others like to heap on him. Hard and fair is fine and we've seen some good examples of that in the F1 season that's just finished; however, for me Senna - like Schumacher - crossed the line between fair and foul too many times to be considered the greatest ever (although I always think comparisons across eras are pointless in any sport).Could some of the older fans who have seen Senna 'back in the day', show me some footage of this cheating, or give me some examples. I know the film Senna was criticised for be very bias by some on this site, so more info on his bad side would be great.
However, just to show I'm not anti-Senna, I'd also say his opening lap at Donington in 1993 was the best first lap I've ever seen. Just don't understand why someone with the huge ability and talent he had used to get up to some of the tricks he did; sad and so unnecessary.....
Fantuzzi said:
People keep calling him a cheat, I havnt seen that so much.
Could some of the older fans who have seen Senna 'back in the day', show me some footage of this cheating, or give me some examples. I know the film Senna was criticised for be very bias by some on this site, so more info on his bad side would be great.
Best source I've seen for that is the book Senna vs. Prost by Malcolm Folley, which goes back to his F3 days against Brundle and earlier as well.Could some of the older fans who have seen Senna 'back in the day', show me some footage of this cheating, or give me some examples. I know the film Senna was criticised for be very bias by some on this site, so more info on his bad side would be great.
It's hard to get hold of footage now, really, because in many of the cases nothing interesting happened. Senna would force opponents into brake or crash ultimatums, hang them out to dry, etc, have them locking up wheels trying to keep it on the track because Senna had just gone down the inside. Today none of it would look quite normal, but in Senna's day, the cars looked more difficult to control, you couldn't venture two feet off the track without crashing like you can today. Today when someone dives up the inside at the absolute last second and the driver has to lock up, he's trying to recover his apex. In the '80s, the driver locked up trying to avoid a painful crash where, while deaths were getting uncommon, broken bones were still popular, and the big saving grace on the cars - carbon fibre tubs - was still in its infancy.
Today everyone drives like Senna. In the '80s, nobody did. He made all the rest look like sporting gentlemen.
For examples, I guess ones to look for would be Senna blocking Lauda's qualifying efforts in, um, Monaco I think (might have been somewhere else), Mansell grabbing Senna by the throat in the Lotus garage, Prost and pitwall in Portugal, and of course the two collisions at Suzuka, but I'd be guessing you won't find much except for the last two, because up until Prost at Portugal, for the most part the drivers just jumped on the brakes and avoided an accident, so there's not much of an event to go posting up on Youtube. Especially when compared to drivers of the post Youtube era, where the cars and tracks really do make it a non event.
freedman said:
Eric Mc said:
Excellent summation of my views on Senna and why he died. God must have been otherwise engaged that day.
He died because the car failedNot beacuse he went to 11, and nothing to do with god, which was a rather cheap and unpleasant jibe
Either way, doesn't change the fact that Senna, of all drivers and quite unlike Clark funnily enough, surprised so few people by having a massive crash on the ragged edge of control.
freedman said:
He died because the car failed
Sorry but that's just incorrect. A very long investigation found no evidence of car failure and the consensus now seems to be that Senna simply lost control over the bumps entering Tamburello and couldn't recover the car before it hit the wall. Reduced tyre pressures due to an extended period running behind a relatively slow safety car may have been a contributory factor but no evidence of car failure was found (and if there had been at least one member of the Williams team would have faced prosecution under Italian law as I understand it). In fairness when I saw the accident live on TV my immediate thought was there must have been a mechanical or tyre failure. However, it seems that wasn't the case and Senna died because a) he made a mistake and b) was incredibly unlucky to be struck by a piece of suspension; had that component flown six inches higher he'd have just got out of the car and walked away...
RE: The Senna film - it wasn't bias in a way that would imply dishonest and lying - I don't agree with that. But it was certainly pro-Senna. 90 minutes wasn't enough to really make it comprehensive, and the pro Senna aspect really isn't suprising when you consider where the majority of the material came from.
Anyway, I digress.
I had this discussion with SWMBO the other day. It made me think about it. She asked 'Was Senna that good, or was it because he died that people think he was?'
I had a think and formed the opinion - 'No, he was that good. However, I think he is as loved as he is because he died. If he was still alive he would be as divisive as Schumacher.'
Anyway, I digress.
I had this discussion with SWMBO the other day. It made me think about it. She asked 'Was Senna that good, or was it because he died that people think he was?'
I had a think and formed the opinion - 'No, he was that good. However, I think he is as loved as he is because he died. If he was still alive he would be as divisive as Schumacher.'
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