Honda's new livery

[rubystone]

willibetz said:

[
Interesting idea, but I don't see how that would play with BP's BMW link and Honda's courtship of Sinopec...

Any thoughts?

BP's link with BMW is through Castrol isn't it?..no overt BP branding as such....(but sure, there'd be a conflict) I must confess I thought the Sinopec deal was just for the Chinese GP last year, but not 100% sure about that.

Rumours are that Google is really the title sponsor here...

[FourWheelDrift]

rubystone said:

Rumours are that Google is really the title sponsor here...

"Google Earth"...ah I see now, that'll explain all the missing data on the back of the car.

[flemke]

rubystone said:

willibetz said:

[
Interesting idea, but I don't see how that would play with BP's BMW link and Honda's courtship of Sinopec...

Any thoughts?

BP's link with BMW is through Castrol isn't it?..no overt BP branding as such....(but sure, there'd be a conflict) I must confess I thought the Sinopec deal was just for the Chinese GP last year, but not 100% sure about that.

Rumours are that Google is really the title sponsor here...

Mobil sponsor McLaren, Esso sponsor Toyota.

[willibetz]

flemke said:

rubystone said:

willibetz said:

[
Interesting idea, but I don't see how that would play with BP's BMW link and Honda's courtship of Sinopec...

Any thoughts?

BP's link with BMW is through Castrol isn't it?..no overt BP branding as such....(but sure, there'd be a conflict) I must confess I thought the Sinopec deal was just for the Chinese GP last year, but not 100% sure about that.

Rumours are that Google is really the title sponsor here...

Mobil sponsor McLaren, Esso sponsor Toyota.

I don't know who has Honda's OEM lubricant business, but even assuming it's BP I would be slightly surprised if BP provided technical support or funding to Honda F1. History relates that teams get a bit tetchy when they think their technical partners are spread betting (with some exceptions, fuel tanks for instance). And BP's best claim to environmental responsibility is surely to remain low-key, at least until the new enviro-fuel regs come in to force.

Flemke raises an interesting point about Exxon Mobil's involvement with two teams, but it is perhaps a bit of a special case as both brands are known individually in different geographies for different products. Still, I doubt Ron would be too happy if he thought his fuel and lubes were interchangeable with Toyota's!

Sinopec would be a great prospect for Honda (albeit perhaps a better one when the car was red and white), but they need to work out the cultural fit; whether market reach justifies the bucks; and then buy in some technology (or at least technical credibility).

WilliBetz

[flemke]

willibetz said:

I don't know who has Honda's OEM lubricant business, but even assuming it's BP I would be slightly surprised if BP provided technical support or funding to Honda F1. History relates that teams get a bit tetchy when they think their technical partners are spread betting (with some exceptions, fuel tanks for instance). And BP's best claim to environmental responsibility is surely to remain low-key, at least until the new enviro-fuel regs come in to force.

Flemke raises an interesting point about Exxon Mobil's involvement with two teams, but it is perhaps a bit of a special case as both brands are known individually in different geographies for different products. Still, I doubt Ron would be too happy if he thought his fuel and lubes were interchangeable with Toyota's!

I do not doubt what you say, but it does raise some interesting questions:

- In the case of a "technical partner", it is that entity that is supplying funding/material to the constructor. One therefore wonders how much leverage Ron, for example, would have if Mobil were to wish to subsidise another team in addition to his own (contractual constraints notwithstanding).
Of course there are many suppliers that already provide to more than one team calipers, brake rotors, clutches, wheels, engine internals, hoses, spark plugs, et al. That was most obviously the case for tyres, until Mosley stuck his fat nose into things.
- In the case of funding in exchange for pure exposure, the teams fight like dogs to get as much funding as possible whilsting relinquishing as little real estate as possible.
It is certainly imaginable, at least to me, that a sponsor could only get limited exposure with team A, agreed to a 3 year deal to do that, and midway through the 3 years decided that F1 exposure was so valuable that they signed up for a bigger sponsorship with team B, whilst fulfilling their obligation to team A (again, notwithstanding contractual contraints).
It's not obvious why a sponsor would so identify themselves with one team that they would see a conflict in getting additional exposure with a second team. I should think that the issue was value-for-money, not conflict of interest.
- Obviously if a team is its own sponsor, such as Honda and BMW, it's not going to do anything that could assist a commercial competitor, such as Toyota and Mercedes.
- Sometimes the sponsors will withdraw because they do not want to be on the same team as a competitor (Vodafone/AT&T), but that is quite different from sponsoring two different teams when neither is already working with a competitor.

I'd have to say that the bottom line is...the bottom line. The teams will do almost anything for a price.

[willibetz]

Interesting points, indeed.

I'm not sure that our views are contradictory, though. As you say, the teams are competing for funding and looking for value. I'd add the obvious point that they're looking for a competitive edge. So if one of their technical sponsors looks to partner with an additional team, they are likely to wonder:

- why aren't they spending more time and money on developments for us
- what IP developed during our partnership is going to benefit the competition

But what can the team do? Well, one tactic might be to reference the value of the relationship outside of the limited racing context. The original fill manufacturer business and associated endorsements can be valuable.

That said, I confess to being regularly surprised by the actions of fuel partners. You're probably closer to understanding BP's strategy than I am, but what are Elf doing sponsoring Renault? Can you still buy Elf products, anywhere?

WilliBetz

[rubystone]

willibetz said:

but what are Elf doing sponsoring Renault? Can you still buy Elf products, anywhere?

WilliBetz

Sure - in France....

[willibetz]

Thanks, Rubystone.

That would certainly help to explain it, though I thought Elf had become Total even in France.

WilliBetz

[flemke]

willibetz said:

Thanks, Rubystone.

That would certainly help to explain it, though I thought Elf had become Total even in France.

WilliBetz

Just a thought, but...
Despite their many repellent qualities, les Grenouilles have the odd bit of charm. One of those odd bits is sentimentality.
Is it possible that they're continuing the "Elf" theme to connect to the many great "Elf"-liveried race cars that have made many branches of motorsport better through the years?

[rubystone]

willibetz said:

Thanks, Rubystone.

That would certainly help to explain it, though I thought Elf had become Total even in France.

WilliBetz

Good point indeed! I can't think of the last time I saw the Elf brand anywhere in France. Do they reserve it for their oils I wonder?

[willibetz]

I'm not aware of the Elf brand being used for anything other than racing products. But that doesn't mean it isn't!

So I have always taken Flemke's view (not about the French, about whom he's clearly misinformed) that the Renault F1 cars run Elf logos for reasons of continuity and tradition. Perhaps it preserves a sentimental link to the Tyrells but, then again, if the bottom line is really the bottom line, perhaps it's the linkage to the little "Renault recommends Elf" sticker that adorns every aging Renault road car.

I wonder what the sticker on new Renault road cars reads?

WilliBetz

[FourWheelDrift]

willibetz said:

I wonder what the sticker on new Renault road cars reads?

"If you can read this you're clearly not as blind as we thought you were when we sold you this car".

[williamp]

TotalFinaElf is the same compnay- called just that.

I have seen petrol stations from all of those, and (I think) oil. As someone else has said, there is alkso the historial aspect, and also marketing: At brands I looked at the Champ car tyres, which were branded Firestone. In small writing they said "made by Goodyear"

[10 Pence Short]

williamp said:

TotalFinaElf is the same compnay- called just that.

I have seen petrol stations from all of those, and (I think) oil. As someone else has said, there is alkso the historial aspect, and also marketing: At brands I looked at the Champ car tyres, which were branded Firestone. In small writing they said "made by Goodyear"

I thought Firestone were a Bridgestone brand?

[limegreennutter]

10 Pence Short said:

williamp said:

TotalFinaElf is the same compnay- called just that.

I have seen petrol stations from all of those, and (I think) oil. As someone else has said, there is alkso the historial aspect, and also marketing: At brands I looked at the Champ car tyres, which were branded Firestone. In small writing they said "made by Goodyear"

I thought Firestone were a Bridgestone brand?

They are

[willibetz]

... and TotalFinaElf was a transitional name for what is now Total.

[willibetz]

FourWheelDrift said:

willibetz said:

I wonder what the sticker on new Renault road cars reads?

"If you can read this you're clearly not as blind as we thought you were when we sold you this car".

[flemke]

Spoke with a guy who races with Elf sponsorship.
He said that the plan is to convert the few remaining Elf-branded fuel stations to Total.
Total in toto (sorry about that) will, however, continue to offer two brands of lubricants, Total and Elf.
Elf is meant to be the so-called premium brand, and it is to promote this that they use the Elf name in F1.

[willibetz]

Thanks, flemke. Certainly credible. Wonder whether it's commercially sensible...

[flemke]

willibetz said:

Thanks, flemke. Certainly credible. Wonder whether it's commercially sensible...

It's at least as commercially sensible as Airbus.