How many races until Schumacher has/does one of his "stunts"
Poll: How many races until Schumacher has/does one of his "stunts"
Total Members Polled: 174
Discussion
Schumacher is pretty ruthless on the track. There's no denying that. However, he certainly isn't the first and won't be the last.
(The Senna / Prost 1990 incident is a good example).
The issue with Schumacher is that he's had a few very high-profile 'moments' and, for that reason, is renowned for it.
Saying that, i'd rather have the odd Schumacher 'incident' than a sport with everyone patting eachother on the back and racing by numbers.
(The Senna / Prost 1990 incident is a good example).
The issue with Schumacher is that he's had a few very high-profile 'moments' and, for that reason, is renowned for it.
Saying that, i'd rather have the odd Schumacher 'incident' than a sport with everyone patting eachother on the back and racing by numbers.
mattikake said:
mchammer89 said:
Pushing Kubica wide after the pit was acceptable and we've seen it from many other drivers with no complaints.
Where not accidental, this is unacceptable. I'm struggling to remember a move by another driver whereby they moved off the racing line to push someone onto the grass AFTER they had already got part of their car alongside. Oh no, one such move does come to mind. Schmacker on Hakkinen at Spa 2000...I consider such a move as dirty as fuc. It's not a block. It's not a squeeze. It's deliberately running someone off the road.
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
Erm, whilst I agree that Schumacher may be have been the most recent, there have been plenty of drivers who have caused avoidable accidents / deliberately edged a driver off the track.mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
I would argue that Senna "squeezing" Prost towards a concrete pit wall was more dangerous than Schumacher edging Massa to some grass... I rather liked Senna but he did do some borderline driving at times...
Edited by harry010 on Monday 14th June 13:23
StuartMcKay said:
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
Again, utter rubbish! Japan Prost Vs Senna 1990:<Ignorant attempt at patronising snipped>
Senna deliberately rammed Prost into retirement, with the express purpose of retiring him [in revenge]. He did not squeeze him onto the grass as a fact of his unable-to-lose psyche or "driving style".
If you can't see the obivous difference between the two, then that again clearly explains why you're on the pro-Schmacker camp.
harry010 said:
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
I would argue that Senna "squeezing" Prost towards a concrete pit wall was more dangerous than Schumacher edging Massa to some grass... I rather liked Senna but he did do some borderline driving at times...
Edited by harry010 on Monday 14th June 13:23
mchammer89 said:
mattikake said:
mchammer89 said:
Pushing Kubica wide after the pit was acceptable and we've seen it from many other drivers with no complaints.
Where not accidental, this is unacceptable. I'm struggling to remember a move by another driver whereby they moved off the racing line to push someone onto the grass AFTER they had already got part of their car alongside. Oh no, one such move does come to mind. Schmacker on Hakkinen at Spa 2000...I consider such a move as dirty as fuc. It's not a block. It's not a squeeze. It's deliberately running someone off the road.
If you watch carefully, you'll notice Hamilton didn't even know Glock was there - you can see he wasn't using his mirrors which were also useless in spray.
If you watch even more carefully, you see this in the subtitles.
And if you watch as closely as a someone who is a regular F1 fan and not a Schmacker fan, you'll see comments where other Schmacker fans have already attemtped to argue the t0ss, and lost.
The detail is everything. Face it, Schmucker is dirty on a whole other level.
mattikake said:
StuartMcKay said:
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
Again, utter rubbish! Japan Prost Vs Senna 1990:<Ignorant attempt at patronising snipped>
Senna deliberately rammed Prost into retirement, with the express purpose of retiring him [in revenge]. He did not squeeze him onto the grass as a fact of his unable-to-lose psyche or "driving style".
If you can't see the obivous difference between the two, then that again clearly explains why you're on the pro-Schmacker camp.
But that is just my opinion and obviously very different from yours.
If I understand this correctly planning a deliberate act and then carrying it out is OK in your book?
Edited by E30M3SE on Monday 14th June 17:58
ETA. LOL at your 'computer games' subtitle.
Edited by E30M3SE on Monday 14th June 18:22
Phil-CH said:
Considering none of the "moves" the majority in here are talking about were even investigated, some of you really seem to be a bit on edge about Schumacher. Oh dear...
I see the point about him being an agressive driver. So what?
Dammed if he does and dammed no doubt if he doesn't for being too soft. He was having a good race until Kubico got in the way.I see the point about him being an agressive driver. So what?
It rarely gets mentioned, but for the last few races he has made up places at the start and this time thirteenth to eighth.
mattikake said:
StuartMcKay said:
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
Again, utter rubbish! Japan Prost Vs Senna 1990:<Ignorant attempt at patronising snipped>
Senna deliberately rammed Prost into retirement, with the express purpose of retiring him [in revenge]. He did not squeeze him onto the grass as a fact of his unable-to-lose psyche or "driving style".
If you can't see the obivous difference between the two, then that again clearly explains why you're on the pro-Schmacker camp.
d when he wanted/needed to be.Heres how your comment above comes across:
You seem to feel that it is perfectly fine for a driver (Senna) to deliberately ram another driver off the track in a premeditated 'assault' (Senna stated before the race that he wouldn't lift and if Prost turned in on him then so be it!!) Yet you feel that it is not ok for a Schumacher to defend his position as the lead car by squeezing the driver behind?!?! I hope to meet you on the race track soon if the latter is how you race!
Schumacher gave Kubica a choice, lift off and save position or go for a gap that Schumacher was making sure was getting smaller and smaller and end up on the grass! Kubica made his choice, and got it wrong, caused a racing incident and got on with the job which judging from what Robert Kubica's say's on his own website http://www.kubica.pl/ it looks like that's the way he see's it as well as he describes his battles with Heikki, Adrian Sutil AND MICHAEL SCHUMACHER as exciting yet doesn't mention any problems with what Michael did!!!
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
Ah, the rose-tinting is strong in this one.Senna's approach paved the way for Schumacher.
StuartMcKay said:
mattikake said:
StuartMcKay said:
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
Again, utter rubbish! Japan Prost Vs Senna 1990:<Ignorant attempt at patronising snipped>
Senna deliberately rammed Prost into retirement, with the express purpose of retiring him [in revenge]. He did not squeeze him onto the grass as a fact of his unable-to-lose psyche or "driving style".
If you can't see the obivous difference between the two, then that again clearly explains why you're on the pro-Schmacker camp.
d when he wanted/needed to be.Heres how your comment above comes across:
You seem to feel that it is perfectly fine for a driver (Senna) to deliberately ram another driver off the track in a premeditated 'assault' (Senna stated before the race that he wouldn't lift and if Prost turned in on him then so be it!!) Yet you feel that it is not ok for a Schumacher to defend his position as the lead car by squeezing the driver behind?!?! I hope to meet you on the race track soon if the latter is how you race!
) was that running someone off the road (actually at least for the 3rd time as I now remember him doing this to Hamilton in China this year) and taking someone out for a political statement, are the same thing and therefore represent equal personality traits. They are not.I haven't said what Senna did is ok and what Schumi did isn't. I'm saying they're not comparable incidents, and certainly do not excuse Schumi for his defensive tactics either. Schumi remains the only driver to deliberately and get away with it, run someone else off the road as part of his defensive ar$enal.
The closest Senna came to doing-a-schumi was in Estoril, but he still gave Prost just enough space for a car and a bit. (In fact in anaylsis, Senna moved BEFORE Prost did, meaning he meant to stop the overtake in the first place, not to let it happen THEN give the overtaker a choice of give-up or crash). It represents a different attitude of the drive to me.
(also thinks of Senna v Mansell Brazil 1987 but I think that was more a 50/50 from two guys who wouldn't give-up?)
As an aside, it's also interesting that if Senna is a bad boy for deliberately taking Prost out, then what about Prost deliberately taking Senna out in 1989? (oh yes he did. I have a nice analysis vid with overlaid frames of Prost's normal line and the line when they crashed, proving this. I just need to find a place to upload it to as YT are currently denying it under the guise of FOM). That moment seems to be forgotten? I suspect Senna-1990 was just a matter of an example chosen at random.
Ahonen said:
mattikake said:
- Senna NEVER ran someone off the track. Not once. He may have squeezed them to the edge, but he never ran them on to the grass. The only F1 driver to have deliberately done this, more than once now, is Schmacker.
Ah, the rose-tinting is strong in this one.Senna's approach paved the way for Schumacher.
hing is that you are ignoring Scumsucker's consistency in his repeated malfeasance;MS vs Hill, MS vs Villneuve, MS vs Hakkinen, MS vs his own team mate, Barrichello most glaringly, MS vs...his own brother!
And my list certainly isn't comprehensive in terms of when the 'greatest driver in the universe' not only drove hard, but also did so unfairly and without care for the risks he exposed his competitor to.
That being said I think we can agree the Monaco qualifying stunt was the lowest point of gamesmanship, though it did not endanger anyone.
I am certainly not hiding my Schadenfreude at his current discomfort and lack of competitiveness. He says he is looking to 2011, I think he would be better served by looking for his slippers...
Toodle Pip!
Senna's move on Prost at the Japanese GP was not quite a case of deliberate ramming. The quote before the start of the race was, many people suggest, to ensure that Prost did not try to block him.
If you study the first corner incident you will see that Prost left the door open. Senna went for the gap. There is little doubt in my mind that:
a/ Prost was at fault for leaving the gap, and
b/ that Senna was going too fast to make the corner.
If Prost had merely braked he would have been able to cut inside on the exit - assuming that Senna had been able to make the exit that is. Not a forgone conclusion.
I'm not defending the move in any way but it was consistent with Senna's morals. His driving put Prost in a dilemma. Prost, as he was occasionly wont to do, chose the wrong option.
Senna was a sublime racer, of that there is little doubt. I have no doubt that in equal machinery he was MSc's better. Also, Senna was, I am told, quite shocked that some cars were cheating with traction control and such. That was too much for him.
There was a change in Senna though. His ego, never that difficult to find, suddenly became overwhelming. I was talking to an F1 insider during the British GP in Senna's last race there in the McLaren and was told that the man had 'problems' with his religious beliefs. The suggestion was that he was beginning to think himself untouchable. The chap seemed genuinly concerned.
I say this for Senna though. Despite his conceit, tremendous though it was, he was, at least, polite during the 'meet the paying sponsors' guests' farce in the hospitality tent, unlike Berger who was patronising and downright rude.
I'm a big fan of Senna's driving but not of the chap himself. I first of all thought we had another Clark but he flattered himself as well as us.
If you study the first corner incident you will see that Prost left the door open. Senna went for the gap. There is little doubt in my mind that:
a/ Prost was at fault for leaving the gap, and
b/ that Senna was going too fast to make the corner.
If Prost had merely braked he would have been able to cut inside on the exit - assuming that Senna had been able to make the exit that is. Not a forgone conclusion.
I'm not defending the move in any way but it was consistent with Senna's morals. His driving put Prost in a dilemma. Prost, as he was occasionly wont to do, chose the wrong option.
Senna was a sublime racer, of that there is little doubt. I have no doubt that in equal machinery he was MSc's better. Also, Senna was, I am told, quite shocked that some cars were cheating with traction control and such. That was too much for him.
There was a change in Senna though. His ego, never that difficult to find, suddenly became overwhelming. I was talking to an F1 insider during the British GP in Senna's last race there in the McLaren and was told that the man had 'problems' with his religious beliefs. The suggestion was that he was beginning to think himself untouchable. The chap seemed genuinly concerned.
I say this for Senna though. Despite his conceit, tremendous though it was, he was, at least, polite during the 'meet the paying sponsors' guests' farce in the hospitality tent, unlike Berger who was patronising and downright rude.
I'm a big fan of Senna's driving but not of the chap himself. I first of all thought we had another Clark but he flattered himself as well as us.
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