Could something like Group B ever return ?

[dmax]

tank slapper said:

muzzer79 said:

twincam16 said:

Group B rally cars were essentially not far off contemporary F1 pace - Toivonen set a time around Estoril in his Lancia that would have put in him the top ten on the grid for that year.

I think that is pretty much a myth.

THAT IS a myth.
a group B car would be just in the pace of a formula ford...tha's fact.
a rally car is not built to go quick around a flat tarmac track.
group B car was amazing because of the crazy power, but a wrc modern car is as quick on any rally stage.

And to remind the unbelievable difference between an F1 and a rally car, there is still this cool video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgzAsAiWlW8

Edited by dmax on Saturday 17th February 20:03

[stockhatcher]

johnfelstead said:

nic jones said:

slippydiff said:

Juha Kankkunen reported wheelspin in top gear (on 12" wide ?) slicks in his 205Ti6 during the Corsican rally in '85.........

The old man used to rally in a Group B Sierra Cosworth in the '80's before they were banned and in the dry on slicks it could spin its wheels in 5th gear. So it was possible.

There was no such thing as a Group B Sierra Cosworth, that was a GroupA car, a far less performant car in all areas. They were never banned either.

The rear suspension on a Sierra Cosworth is pretty poor in terms of tractive ability, i could get mine spinning at 100MPH+ with only 350BHP. That says more about the geometries and the tyres than how quick a car is.

You can have a RWD car running 800+BHP giving full traction in the higher gears if you get the tyres, suspension and aerodynamics right, it's not exactly huge power to handle if the car is properly designed.

in 1986 ford homologated, what eventually became the group A sierra, into group B, in order to get the car out rallying and in a champiosnhip, which i think was won by trevor smith. So the very early Sierra Cosworths were in group B, even though they were actually group A cars

[anonymous-user]

You'll be refering to the securicor challenge run in 1986, which was won by Phil Collins.

Almost any car could be homologated into Group B when the FIA removed the older homologation lists of Apendix J Group 1,2,3,4. So there is some crossover in terms of what people regard as a GroupB car (cars like the RS200, 205 T16) and what apeared in group B because there was no other homologation method. Those first Sierra's werent built to GroupA standard, they were based on the road production car but didnt have all the homologated parts that were undergoing development at the time, so you will find things like the exhaust system on Phils car difering from what became homologated. They would have had around 280BHP in that guise in 1986. Ford also ran a Sierra in 1984 and 1985 as a test hack in national rallies, as well as the mercur USA platform based touring cars that Andy Rouse and egenburger developed for BTCC, ETCC.

Group A proper apeared in 1987 and that was when the Sierra met it's 5000 production requirement for rallying in Group A.

[RobPhoboS]

I've just spotted a £100k 2.1Ltr 650BHP RS200 for sale.

I've never wanted £100k soooooo much.

[thegreenhell]

I think the real issue here is that the fans just want something more exciting than the current two-litre turbo 4wd formula that consists almost entirely of Imprezzas, Evos, Citroens and Peugeots. All technically very clever, well done engineers, but really a bit too clever and similar to each other to provide much stimulation.

Group B style rally specials will never return to the stages. Ever. So how about a formula based on large capacity, naturally aspirated, 2wd production cars. Things like the Porsche GT3, BMW M3 and Aston Martin V8V. If you kept the rules very tight and minimum production requirements quite high, something like Group-N rules, you could keep a lid on costs and speeds. Then you have the basic recipe for something that provides fantastic value for money for the fans and the teams.

We had a brief discussion about this in the Porsche forum a few weeks ago
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=350630

[nic jones]

stockhatcher said:

johnfelstead said:

nic jones said:

slippydiff said:

Juha Kankkunen reported wheelspin in top gear (on 12" wide ?) slicks in his 205Ti6 during the Corsican rally in '85.........

The old man used to rally in a Group B Sierra Cosworth in the '80's before they were banned and in the dry on slicks it could spin its wheels in 5th gear. So it was possible.

There was no such thing as a Group B Sierra Cosworth, that was a GroupA car, a far less performant car in all areas. They were never banned either.

The rear suspension on a Sierra Cosworth is pretty poor in terms of tractive ability, i could get mine spinning at 100MPH+ with only 350BHP. That says more about the geometries and the tyres than how quick a car is.

You can have a RWD car running 800+BHP giving full traction in the higher gears if you get the tyres, suspension and aerodynamics right, it's not exactly huge power to handle if the car is properly designed.

in 1986 ford homologated, what eventually became the group A sierra, into group B, in order to get the car out rallying and in a champiosnhip, which i think was won by trevor smith. So the very early Sierra Cosworths were in group B, even though they were actually group A cars

I believe that is the story as the car was used in Group A the following years.

OT stockhatcher I think it was an ex Rallycross car converted to use for rallying. (I'll check next time I see the old man)

Edited by nic jones on Sunday 18th February 22:51

[cptsideways]

I'll post a wee video clip of from inside my car tomorrow, having just taken it for a wee first test drive with the new monster under the bonnet it's the loudest thing I've ever driven!!! if this is not what a GroupB sounded like then I will my tyres.