Discussion
Ahonen said:
Out of interest, Simon, what compound and construction do you guys run on the Lotus?
I mainly ask because HP don't generally supply any LMS spec tyres to anyone in Britcar, purely because they don't have access to them. I wanted to try some tricky compounds at the 24, but the only available compounds were identical to those we used in BGT in '03. I did get a different construction to play with, which was a step forward, but nothing radical.
Might it be worth running what the Cadena guys used in BGT in '04? They always seemed to have plenty of grip.
this year we were down to using 823 (Very Hard BTCC tyre) or 631 (medium ??) rearsI mainly ask because HP don't generally supply any LMS spec tyres to anyone in Britcar, purely because they don't have access to them. I wanted to try some tricky compounds at the 24, but the only available compounds were identical to those we used in BGT in '03. I did get a different construction to play with, which was a step forward, but nothing radical.
Might it be worth running what the Cadena guys used in BGT in '04? They always seemed to have plenty of grip.
and 639 (Medium/Soft??) or 674 (Medium) fronts.
previously, we have had avaliable 735 (soft) in both front and rears, but these seem to be not made any more - shame really as for short (less than 2 hour) stuff they worked well for us.
I think the last time they did any real work on these was end of 2003 for BGT, although that car was somewhat different from what we run.
I have customers in AUS GT with exactly the same problem, nobody makes tyres for the car and they are having to import the same ones we can get...
I guess it's very much a numbers game, there are not many Lotus's running, so nobody bothers with them tyre wise, it does make life hard work though as we end up trying to set the car up for tyres designed for something completely different.
Stating the obvious (sorry), but you're in an impossible situation really. Even a change to 18-inch rims won't help you as the tyres available will be either for GT cars (too heavy) or LMP2s (right weight, but tonnes of downforce), neither of which are close to an Elise.
A half way house might be to try the softest available front tyre from LMP2 (which would be a 265/640 or 650 size). They've tried some soft constructions on those, so it could be worth a go. Problem is you'd need to buy the wheels first, then you can find out whether they work or not, so it could be an expensive test...
A half way house might be to try the softest available front tyre from LMP2 (which would be a 265/640 or 650 size). They've tried some soft constructions on those, so it could be worth a go. Problem is you'd need to buy the wheels first, then you can find out whether they work or not, so it could be an expensive test...
Ahonen said:
Stating the obvious (sorry), but you're in an impossible situation really. Even a change to 18-inch rims won't help you as the tyres available will be either for GT cars (too heavy) or LMP2s (right weight, but tonnes of downforce), neither of which are close to an Elise.
A half way house might be to try the softest available front tyre from LMP2 (which would be a 265/640 or 650 size). They've tried some soft constructions on those, so it could be worth a go. Problem is you'd need to buy the wheels first, then you can find out whether they work or not, so it could be an expensive test...
yup, problem is that we can't accomodate wheels much over 620/245 rears and 600/210 fronts, 18" is just not going to work (plus the fact that I would have to have the wheels made as nothing is made in that sort of size that will come close to fitting)A half way house might be to try the softest available front tyre from LMP2 (which would be a 265/640 or 650 size). They've tried some soft constructions on those, so it could be worth a go. Problem is you'd need to buy the wheels first, then you can find out whether they work or not, so it could be an expensive test...
Scuffers said:
thunderbelmont said:
Comments related to the Exige losing to the Beemer on the long straights - there's no substitute for cubic inches - and remote the wing off the Exige and you'll be with the Beemer. It's a Danny La-Rue thing.
now your dreaming....yes the std wing is usless and draggy, we use a purpose desined jobbie (along with a shed load of other subtle stuff).
Basic problem is the car is too short, an has an appauling Cd (High 0.4's), compare that with a 911 or BMW E36 etc.
to give you some idea, on the 24H weekend, the highest speed we got to was 132Mph (Hanger) and that was in qualifing.
Hmmm. looks at Exige picture and dreams of pots of plastecine going in places to make it less Lily Savage in the drag department. I feel a P38 special coming on here...
thunderbelmont said:
Blimey! 0.4's? Isn't a LandRover Defender less draggy. It IS a Danny La-Rue thing!. Have you tried a stupidly low splitter on the front to help it that way? (since splitters seem to be exempt from the ride height equation). It would have to "ride" the kerbs a bit, but can be done.
Hmmm. looks at Exige picture and dreams of pots of plastecine going in places to make it less Lily Savage in the drag department. I feel a P38 special coming on here...
LOL!Hmmm. looks at Exige picture and dreams of pots of plastecine going in places to make it less Lily Savage in the drag department. I feel a P38 special coming on here...
std Elise is 0.407Cd, Exige is terrible in comparison.... it's basically too short a wheelbase for it's width etc.
Done the spliter, vented the arches, done the full width undertrays, etc etc etc.... it's just never going to be and aerodynamic dream.
thunderbelmont said:
Longtail conversion?
That is basically what was done with the GT1 and would help enormously but is a massive amount of effort wasted as it would make the car ineligable for any decent series. The biggest hurdle I have to cross with my car is that I run it in the very strictly controlled LOTRDC series and any deviations I make for Britcar have to be easily reversable. The short tale causes a big wake behind the car and instead of a long tale I have tried very hard to vent air out the back of the car to fill the wake. Front/rear brakes and wheel arches all vent out the back as do the small side vents (a la LMP2 Lola!). Beyond that I've worked very hard to get good aero stability and balance which are always more important than outright numbers. As Scuffers mentions there are loads of subtle thing on my car and the end result is the underfloor and wing which actually work, a big step forward from most other Lotus's. The fact the car is short and wide can't be addressed though and also the 'coke bottle' shape does us no favours.On the subject of tyres I don't think the Dunlop's we run on are bad, not to say that they can't be improved. Biggest issue I see with them is longevity. If we can get the car to run the stint length we want on the fuel allowance we currently WON'T get to the end of a stint on a set of tyres. This is obviously a problem for us. Although I'm sure there is a certain amount we can do with damping and aero to improve the situation we could really do with some assistance from Dunlop but this is NEVER forthcoming.
If you download the regs there is a calender in there http://www.eerc.co.uk/cms/e107_plugins/wrap/wrap.p...
Neil
Neil
ngr said:
If you download the regs there is a calender in there http://www.eerc.co.uk/cms/e107_plugins/wrap/wrap.p...
Neil
Thank you Neil. It's sad to see there's no date at Oulton next yearNeil
Keeping the fun factor in Britcar is of paramount importance. But trying to run, police and keep a level playing field is of equal importance. The main reason I packed in full time racing years ago and by that I mean avidly subscibing to the whole championship (not britcar) was because of the cheating going on. I honestly think some people get more fun out of getting away with cheating than actually winning the race.
Many years ago we all had to troddle off to Porsche's rolling road at Reading. Prior to the start of the year the cars where all dynoed to see if they fell in the standard power plus 5% allowed. At least if you were over you had a chance to sort it prior to the championship starting. At the end of the race some cars where taken away on a car transporter for dynoing. Did it stop the cheating. No it did not. I'm talking 1996 and prior and people where running adjustable maps in their cars back then. We all know how technology has moved on at an incredible pace in the last twelve years, I hate to think what can be achieved now.
I am honestly looking at joining you guys in the Britcar next year in a 996 supercup car. Obviously it is going to cost a few quid but what potentially really pi**es me off the most and puts me off going back into regular motorsport is the thought of racers that refuse to play buy the rules. Not mentioning any names but years ago there was a chap who ran nitrous in his fire extinguisher for qualifying. When I did a few rounds of BGT a few years ago, certainly one SC Car was running 3.8 litre barrels and pistons.
I have always perceived Britcar to be a fun thing to do, but policing is necessary, does not have to be draconian and should help to keep the fun element and spirit alive and kicking. You are never going to stop cheating in motorsport, the lenghts that some people will go to are extroadinary but If you have some measures in place that may very well catch them out then it will make them think twice about it. Surely with a mixture of dyno and electronic interogation (car not the driver) should mean that most people will play by the rules.
best regards to you all, Graeme
Many years ago we all had to troddle off to Porsche's rolling road at Reading. Prior to the start of the year the cars where all dynoed to see if they fell in the standard power plus 5% allowed. At least if you were over you had a chance to sort it prior to the championship starting. At the end of the race some cars where taken away on a car transporter for dynoing. Did it stop the cheating. No it did not. I'm talking 1996 and prior and people where running adjustable maps in their cars back then. We all know how technology has moved on at an incredible pace in the last twelve years, I hate to think what can be achieved now.
I am honestly looking at joining you guys in the Britcar next year in a 996 supercup car. Obviously it is going to cost a few quid but what potentially really pi**es me off the most and puts me off going back into regular motorsport is the thought of racers that refuse to play buy the rules. Not mentioning any names but years ago there was a chap who ran nitrous in his fire extinguisher for qualifying. When I did a few rounds of BGT a few years ago, certainly one SC Car was running 3.8 litre barrels and pistons.
I have always perceived Britcar to be a fun thing to do, but policing is necessary, does not have to be draconian and should help to keep the fun element and spirit alive and kicking. You are never going to stop cheating in motorsport, the lenghts that some people will go to are extroadinary but If you have some measures in place that may very well catch them out then it will make them think twice about it. Surely with a mixture of dyno and electronic interogation (car not the driver) should mean that most people will play by the rules.
best regards to you all, Graeme
Graeme36 come and join us.
After many conversations and years of pesamism, I amoungst others in the series are more confident than ever that policing will happen in 2008. Maybe not at every race but some and that is enough to enforce stability. I am confident the EERC and JT in particular now understand that it is vital if this cracking concept is to be taken seriously as a championship and therefore a commercial proposition on all fronts. God knows British GT is no better other than having PR value.
On another note, since we can do anything to aero and gearboxes on our chosen cars its kind of difficult to cheat outside being underweight or significantly over power anyway.
On that basis the only way anyone can go seriously wrong in Britcar is to start with a car they are financialy stretched to run.
After many conversations and years of pesamism, I amoungst others in the series are more confident than ever that policing will happen in 2008. Maybe not at every race but some and that is enough to enforce stability. I am confident the EERC and JT in particular now understand that it is vital if this cracking concept is to be taken seriously as a championship and therefore a commercial proposition on all fronts. God knows British GT is no better other than having PR value.
On another note, since we can do anything to aero and gearboxes on our chosen cars its kind of difficult to cheat outside being underweight or significantly over power anyway.
On that basis the only way anyone can go seriously wrong in Britcar is to start with a car they are financialy stretched to run.
It would be good to see a few more amature drivers in the championship, certainly don`t be put off by the fact you`re not very quick, I`m sure your pace will pick up during the season 
I think Britcar differs from the Porsche Cup in that there is a far wider variable between cars. That`s why simple power to weight regs work well. How you choose to achieve your power / weight is down to you, just so long as you stay within the permitted limits.
The championship is never going to be as closely policed as the Porsche cup but so long as people who are clearly out of class get picked up that`s all that matters, although even in the Porsche cup you had nitrous in the fire extinguisher system, 2nd ECUs welded into sills & so on. They also had to ban certain cars because their power could be varied so greatly.
Former Daytona 24 hour veteran joins Britcar.........
All the best mate.
Henry
I think Britcar differs from the Porsche Cup in that there is a far wider variable between cars. That`s why simple power to weight regs work well. How you choose to achieve your power / weight is down to you, just so long as you stay within the permitted limits.
The championship is never going to be as closely policed as the Porsche cup but so long as people who are clearly out of class get picked up that`s all that matters, although even in the Porsche cup you had nitrous in the fire extinguisher system, 2nd ECUs welded into sills & so on. They also had to ban certain cars because their power could be varied so greatly.
Former Daytona 24 hour veteran joins Britcar.........
All the best mate.
Henry
graeme36s said:
electronic interogation (car not the driver)
Now there is the solution....after every race you connect each driver and team manager to a Polygraph and an hgv boost start pack connected yer testicles...
one question :- are you cheating in any way...
if the answer is no and the polygraph says Lie... then the boost pack gets turned on...
that should balance things up a bit
fairly cheap to set up, no need to monitor all tha cars, and you could probably make a few quid out of the video....especially is someone is caught cheating...
Edited by Graham on Monday 19th November 10:38
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