Discussion
I've read through some of the topics on here that reflect the views people have regarding championship regs, classes, policing, power to weight etc etc, and the overriding requirement seems to be the ability to compete on something of a level playing field. Now I may well be in a minority here, but I think that the EERC have got it about right bar a few touches here and there, and rightly or wrongly, I think we do have a reasonably level pitch.
We will stay with Britcar for 2008 not because it is perfect but because every other series I have raced in seemed to be rife with "advantage taking" be it through financial and/or other hidden methods, where as in Britcar, it is limited and in any event often a waste of time and money in result terms. Those teams that develop cars or strive to improve capabilities beyond the base norm are at a disadvantage in endurance racing against those of us that run cars that have benefited from years of manufacturer attention and improvement and although the development cars may seem to have the edge in terms of outright performance, when margins are pushed it's normally reliability that suffers. I don't accept the argument that because you are lucky enough to be able to afford to buy a Porsche, albeit boring in the eye's of some, you're better off then others financially, that's rubbish, as I know many teams that have purchased much cheaper cars but end up spending two or three times what we did to get them competitive, been there, seen it, read the book. A 996 or 997 may cost a few quid to buy, but once you have got over that, all you need do is run and look after them. This in itself is not cheap but I know we spent twice as much trying to keep our converted BMW Z3M coupe competitive and operational then we have with the 996.
What I like about this endurance championship is that I can race a bog standard 996 GT3 cup car in a class that has cars in it that are quicker and still have every chance of coming out on top, for our choice of car, our preparation, and our ability to drive the thing consistently and with sympathy to both machine and drivers gives us, in my book, a level playing field. We could spend £30/40k upgrading the suspension, the engine (to 3.8) add a chunk of BHP, change to a sequential box etc etc but why spend all that money, potentially effect the in built reliability, in search of a legal advantage when the facts indicate that in standard format, the car will do the job. If we fail to obtain a class finish in 2008, it won't be because of the car we run, it will be down to bad luck, lack of preparation, or simply the fact that we are not quick or good enough as drivers.
We started late in 2007, we only entered 5 of the 7 races we were entitled to, but we came 4th in class and 14th overall despite this. If one does the sums, by adding our average point score for the two races we missed, assuming no DNF's, we would have ended up with 146 points as opposed to the 110 that we finished with. The GT Cup winners had 127 points, enough said.
I've forgotten what my point was now, suffice to say that we have enjoyed every minuit of the races we entered this season, we like the Britcar atmosphere, the standards of driving are better then most, our fellow competitors are in the main straight forward and reasonable people and frankly I don't believe that as a basis for moving forward, one could hope for better. The EERC has it's faults but I've seen and experienced far worse, overall they do extremely well in comparison, that's my view at any rate.
We will stay with Britcar for 2008 not because it is perfect but because every other series I have raced in seemed to be rife with "advantage taking" be it through financial and/or other hidden methods, where as in Britcar, it is limited and in any event often a waste of time and money in result terms. Those teams that develop cars or strive to improve capabilities beyond the base norm are at a disadvantage in endurance racing against those of us that run cars that have benefited from years of manufacturer attention and improvement and although the development cars may seem to have the edge in terms of outright performance, when margins are pushed it's normally reliability that suffers. I don't accept the argument that because you are lucky enough to be able to afford to buy a Porsche, albeit boring in the eye's of some, you're better off then others financially, that's rubbish, as I know many teams that have purchased much cheaper cars but end up spending two or three times what we did to get them competitive, been there, seen it, read the book. A 996 or 997 may cost a few quid to buy, but once you have got over that, all you need do is run and look after them. This in itself is not cheap but I know we spent twice as much trying to keep our converted BMW Z3M coupe competitive and operational then we have with the 996.
What I like about this endurance championship is that I can race a bog standard 996 GT3 cup car in a class that has cars in it that are quicker and still have every chance of coming out on top, for our choice of car, our preparation, and our ability to drive the thing consistently and with sympathy to both machine and drivers gives us, in my book, a level playing field. We could spend £30/40k upgrading the suspension, the engine (to 3.8) add a chunk of BHP, change to a sequential box etc etc but why spend all that money, potentially effect the in built reliability, in search of a legal advantage when the facts indicate that in standard format, the car will do the job. If we fail to obtain a class finish in 2008, it won't be because of the car we run, it will be down to bad luck, lack of preparation, or simply the fact that we are not quick or good enough as drivers.
We started late in 2007, we only entered 5 of the 7 races we were entitled to, but we came 4th in class and 14th overall despite this. If one does the sums, by adding our average point score for the two races we missed, assuming no DNF's, we would have ended up with 146 points as opposed to the 110 that we finished with. The GT Cup winners had 127 points, enough said.
I've forgotten what my point was now, suffice to say that we have enjoyed every minuit of the races we entered this season, we like the Britcar atmosphere, the standards of driving are better then most, our fellow competitors are in the main straight forward and reasonable people and frankly I don't believe that as a basis for moving forward, one could hope for better. The EERC has it's faults but I've seen and experienced far worse, overall they do extremely well in comparison, that's my view at any rate.
Edited by Racing Rod on Friday 21st September 12:48
2priestsferrari said:
By and large well said. One question.
You say your car is a bog standard 996 cup car, I believe you, and it goes rightly into GT3 cup class. So why are the standard 997 cup cars in the class above?
That may well be a factor in 2008 as the 997 is supposed to be 2 secs a lap quicker then the 996 due to having some 20 bhp advantage engine wise and it does of course have the sequential box. The 997 is also rose jointed throughout and has upgraded brakes and suspension as far as I know. The problem seems to be that it has not been that competitive within the GT3 class and the £30k upgrade kit they offered doesn't seem to have helped much. If I knew for sure that we could run this car in GT Cup, I'd go and buy one, as all in ,it should be a better car then the 996, but as I suspect it will have to run in GT3, it will struggle against much quicker cars. Having said that, and following my original argument, it could work reasonably well in Britcar as an endurance racer but I hear that it has had reliability problems mainly from the sequential box and if that's true, I'd leave it on the grounds of the added costs and the effects a failure of this type would have on a given race day. You say your car is a bog standard 996 cup car, I believe you, and it goes rightly into GT3 cup class. So why are the standard 997 cup cars in the class above?
Edited by Racing Rod on Friday 21st September 13:08
2priestsferrari said:
Rod I agree entirely with your comments HOWEVER the whole championship and 24hrs is based upon power to weight and on that basis a 997 cup car is in the GT3 cup class - the regulations do not have any stipulation over rose joints, gearbox, etc.
In essence, I agree that there is a possible argument, to a very limited degree, for down grading the 997 to cup class based on current performance capabilities but I can also see that those that run 996's would then have to upgrade to stay competitive for the 997 will have a real advantage over a 996. Existing 996 teams and probably most of the other non Porsche teams, in Cup class would object to that, and rightly so. This is the dilemma in buying and racing a 997, where do you run it ?? for it's a classified GT3 car that's under performing in the class that it was designed for but if dropped in class would have a distinct advantage in racing against existing GT Cup cars and I think that if Britcar re-classified it as a cup car there would be something of a reaction from all current GT Cup teams.I for one would object on the grounds that I don't want to be forced into spending a small fortune to keep my existing car a least mildly competitive against an upgraded version of the same breed that has failed to make the grade in the class it was supposed to be in..
Hi Andy,
Yes, it would be good to have the ability for teams to air their respective views and as you say, perhaps November would be an opportunity. Personally, I would wait until the dinner dance and maybe have a team/driver meeting during the afternoon prior to the main event as I believe that changes are being considered as we speak. There is for instance the distinct possibility that we will all be given the opportunity of dropping a bad round next season, and if I am remembering correctly, this was a point that Henry brought up many moons ago. I think what I'm suggesting is this, There will be changes that could well be adopted for 2008 that were first muted back in 06 but have taken time to run through the system, lets see what and if these do come forward and at that point add any further suggestions that may be worth considering.
We all know that good and proper changes to any given policy or structure need considerable thought and consideration before implementation, we need only look at our present government to see examples of ill conceived rules and regulations which were not fully thought through, so I say, give the EERC the benefit of the doubt and time to come up with their own interpretation of what is needed and then add or subtract from this once presented. Rome wasn't built in a day or even 7 days, but it collapsed in hours !!!
Yes, it would be good to have the ability for teams to air their respective views and as you say, perhaps November would be an opportunity. Personally, I would wait until the dinner dance and maybe have a team/driver meeting during the afternoon prior to the main event as I believe that changes are being considered as we speak. There is for instance the distinct possibility that we will all be given the opportunity of dropping a bad round next season, and if I am remembering correctly, this was a point that Henry brought up many moons ago. I think what I'm suggesting is this, There will be changes that could well be adopted for 2008 that were first muted back in 06 but have taken time to run through the system, lets see what and if these do come forward and at that point add any further suggestions that may be worth considering.
We all know that good and proper changes to any given policy or structure need considerable thought and consideration before implementation, we need only look at our present government to see examples of ill conceived rules and regulations which were not fully thought through, so I say, give the EERC the benefit of the doubt and time to come up with their own interpretation of what is needed and then add or subtract from this once presented. Rome wasn't built in a day or even 7 days, but it collapsed in hours !!!
Steve Britcar said:
Great stuff, guys.
Regarding drivers/teams meeting with the EERC, my personal view is that you can't run a successful championship, or business, by committee - look at Ecclestone, Gow, Ratel, Palmer. It's got to be one person.
With the possible exception of Ratel from your list above, who seems to be a law unto himself, all the rest MUST listen to the teams that race in their respective series. I agree that you don't, in the main, run successful ventures by committee and I don't think anyone here is asking for that,however, many companies are run by boards for it's a way of adding expertise and specializations that are rarely found in one person.Regarding drivers/teams meeting with the EERC, my personal view is that you can't run a successful championship, or business, by committee - look at Ecclestone, Gow, Ratel, Palmer. It's got to be one person.
If I were in J T's position I would already know that my reputation and style of management allowed me to feel quite safe in terms of losing any real control. I would take into consideration that I was widely liked, respected for my achievements and known as a person who is hard to intimidate and doesn't suffer fools at all !! In this position, I would say to myself, O.K, I'll throw a few things into the ring and have a driver and team meeting, might even set up my own driver and team forum and then sit back and judge the reaction, I would consider myself clever enough to be able to tell the self interested from the genuine and would come away with perhaps a few idea's that were worth consideration. I would then adapt them as my own in order to better my organisation and increase my ever growing popularity with my customers having first tweaked the suggested improvements here and there so that they appear original.
That's what I would do if I were James, perhaps however, he is well ahead of me and already considering something along these lines but as yet Steve, hasn't let on about it !!!! that's how I'd play it until I was ready to announce my overall plans for 2008.
I don't really know why we should be worrying about news such as these class re-names, it doesn't appear to me to be a way of excluding anyone, what's in a name as they say !! I'm sure all of us that want to race will be able to do so and in a class that suits the car we run, there again, perhaps I'm just being too laid back about it !!
The questions one should ask, and in my case the answers I would give are as follows;
Q. Is Britcar your preferred series to run in?
A. YES
Q. Is it exciting, friendly and basically fair to most?
A. YES
Q. Is it cost effective and value for money?
A. YES
Q. Has it got draconian rules and regs that keep you on the edge of your seat until you are sitting on the grid and even then, make you worried that if you pass wind you may be excluded?
A. NO
Q. Do you race because it is a passion and you love the sport?
A. YES
Q. Would you prefer to be intimately involved in the day to day running of the series, keeping everyone happy, dealing with the politics, the complaints, the moaning and whinging about this and that and effectively make it your full time job?
A. NO !!!! I'll let James and his crew do that and if I don't like what he does or the way he runs the series then I'll vote with my feet.
Simple really, Yes, I would like the opportunity to mention a few positive things if a driver/team meeting was arranged but only if it was genuinely accepted as being a good way of communicating ideas that would be properly considered as I'm not a great one for platitudes and lip service.
Just my humble opinion.
The questions one should ask, and in my case the answers I would give are as follows;
Q. Is Britcar your preferred series to run in?
A. YES
Q. Is it exciting, friendly and basically fair to most?
A. YES
Q. Is it cost effective and value for money?
A. YES
Q. Has it got draconian rules and regs that keep you on the edge of your seat until you are sitting on the grid and even then, make you worried that if you pass wind you may be excluded?
A. NO
Q. Do you race because it is a passion and you love the sport?
A. YES
Q. Would you prefer to be intimately involved in the day to day running of the series, keeping everyone happy, dealing with the politics, the complaints, the moaning and whinging about this and that and effectively make it your full time job?
A. NO !!!! I'll let James and his crew do that and if I don't like what he does or the way he runs the series then I'll vote with my feet.
Simple really, Yes, I would like the opportunity to mention a few positive things if a driver/team meeting was arranged but only if it was genuinely accepted as being a good way of communicating ideas that would be properly considered as I'm not a great one for platitudes and lip service.
Just my humble opinion.
Henry-F said:
Q1. Do you want to race against cars in the same class (or even the class below!) who have a significant speed advantage over you.
A. No
Q2. Do you want to race amongst a group of different cars which are controlled by a basic set of common, easy to understand rules that are policed for the good of all.
A. Yes
Q3.Do you think Britcar currently offers Q2.
A No
Q4. Do you want to race with a bunch of guys & guyettes that you can have a bit of fun with off the track, share some banter, nick the odd bit of kit off them when you`re in the shit and have a bite to eat with when you`re on the ferry going to Spa
A. Yes
Q5. Does Britcar currently offer Q4
A. Yes, most definately
I can not see why any competitor would shy away for increased policing unless they were currently cheating. It will give you closer racing and bring your costs down. There is a potential problem where competitors are frightened that they will play by the rules, the rules are not enforced properly (I think we all agree this is the current status) and they are then disadvantaged because others gambled on a lack of policing (and won).
At the moment everyone works away to find a bit of a power advantage and push the envelope a bit. Everyone else does the same so in effect the classes slowly creep upwards (remember Belcar). At the moment I think most of the class 3 cars (called class 1?) are about on a par with my 996 GT3 cup car, a class 2 (or GT3 Cup car).
My car weighs 1200kg empty ex driver and produces 380bhp at the flywheel on a fresh engine.
Just suppose a car in the next class down weighed 1100kg dry it would need to produce 348bhp at the flywheel to match mine.
Take off, say 40bhp to allow for drivechain if you want to use power at the wheels figures (much easier to measure on a dyno as well).
Obviously I am not privvy to other team`s information but you all know the truth in terms of exactly how your cars run.
Britcar is so nearly there, it`s got a great feel amongst it`s competitors, it just needs to sort out the missing link for world domination !
Henry
Fair points, well made, and I have no problem with any of them.A. No
Q2. Do you want to race amongst a group of different cars which are controlled by a basic set of common, easy to understand rules that are policed for the good of all.
A. Yes
Q3.Do you think Britcar currently offers Q2.
A No
Q4. Do you want to race with a bunch of guys & guyettes that you can have a bit of fun with off the track, share some banter, nick the odd bit of kit off them when you`re in the shit and have a bite to eat with when you`re on the ferry going to Spa
A. Yes
Q5. Does Britcar currently offer Q4
A. Yes, most definately
I can not see why any competitor would shy away for increased policing unless they were currently cheating. It will give you closer racing and bring your costs down. There is a potential problem where competitors are frightened that they will play by the rules, the rules are not enforced properly (I think we all agree this is the current status) and they are then disadvantaged because others gambled on a lack of policing (and won).
At the moment everyone works away to find a bit of a power advantage and push the envelope a bit. Everyone else does the same so in effect the classes slowly creep upwards (remember Belcar). At the moment I think most of the class 3 cars (called class 1?) are about on a par with my 996 GT3 cup car, a class 2 (or GT3 Cup car).
My car weighs 1200kg empty ex driver and produces 380bhp at the flywheel on a fresh engine.
Just suppose a car in the next class down weighed 1100kg dry it would need to produce 348bhp at the flywheel to match mine.
Take off, say 40bhp to allow for drivechain if you want to use power at the wheels figures (much easier to measure on a dyno as well).
Obviously I am not privvy to other team`s information but you all know the truth in terms of exactly how your cars run.
Britcar is so nearly there, it`s got a great feel amongst it`s competitors, it just needs to sort out the missing link for world domination !
Henry
I would be happier if everyone played by the rules and would be delighted to be checked at any time within reason, for in common with you chaps, we run a bog standard 996 GT3 Cup car,the specification of which is open for all to see. I just don't want to see "policing" as the be all and end all of a race weekend, random checks, fine, but pre race and after race, checks left right and centre would be a pain in the bum. I know you are not suggesting this but as they say, getting what you want is one thing, wanting what you get could be entirely different. If one allows regs to override everything else, then we will invite those with the power to enforce to maybe abuse, for this seems to be the trend in all walks of life, I say, put a man in uniform and you end up with an arsehole justifying his existence !!! don't we have enough of that??
I do understand, and to a large degree, share your point of view, just wish I could feel a little easier about it's implementation and effects if taken too far if it is to be assumed that everyone is cheating in one form or another, (which I seriously doubt), and nobody can be trusted to play with a straight bat.
Henry-F said:
It`s as simple as that. Minimum weight as you finish the race with driver in the car.
I`d like to be back for 2008, depends if my 620bhp engine and trick ECU arrive in time, ooops......
Waiting to see how the regs pan out and if the series is going to be policed but it doesn`t look that hard to win so would be another trophy for the mantelpiece
Henry
Seems OK to me if that's the way forward, check the car if you get a class podium position, as you say, simple !!!I`d like to be back for 2008, depends if my 620bhp engine and trick ECU arrive in time, ooops......
Waiting to see how the regs pan out and if the series is going to be policed but it doesn`t look that hard to win so would be another trophy for the mantelpiece
Henry
As to the regs etc, if we can now "drop" a bad result round, it will offset against the reliability issue that you and I currently have a slight advantage with as we run 996's, so one of our possible "levelers" against the faster cars in our class will be removed, guess we will just have to be a touch quicker
Never understood fully why you were so keen on this ?? Unless you plan to race something other then a Porsche
When all said and done, I'm fine with the dropped round proposal if the majority of competitors welcome it, teams that have "bad luck" regardless of the reason, will still feel they have a chance and not get too disheartened, but I think it will make it harder for us with "reliability" driven car choices to even up against the quicker yet supposedly less reliable cars. Under these circumstances, the policing proposals now becomes quite important in order to ensure that no additional advantages are taken.
Don't clear the mantelpiece yet !!!!
teamHOLDENracing said:
The dropped round proposal is, I imagine, designed to keep more teams in the championship for the entire season. It stops people thinking, for example, I won't bother going to far flung circuit X as I effectively have no chance now after that DNF at circuit Y
Its not just about reliability though is it - this helps the guys who get punted off through no fault of their own, or who just can't make a meeting due to an immovable other commitment
Or chaps that run TVR's Its not just about reliability though is it - this helps the guys who get punted off through no fault of their own, or who just can't make a meeting due to an immovable other commitment
You are absolutely right Andy me old mucker, it will help in other areas other then reliability, however, you are a prime example of the point I was making as you could well be in Cup class next season, unless you know otherwise, and with 450bhp and 900kg ish in weight and being a far superior driver, yeah !!!, I just may have to sweat a little to kick your arse in me little porker
Mind you, as you are running the TVR, I could pit, have a coffee, go off and book a holiday and still rely on the fact that you will be parked up somewhere with a conked out TVR
Edited by Racing Rod on Tuesday 25th September 14:06
Henry-F said:
450bhp & 900kg wouldn`t be a cup class car. 1100? kg min weight & power as per the class power / weight ratio.
Henry
Quite right, he would be in GT3 or whatever it's called now, just as well as whippersnapper Holden as I call him has got a quick car there and if he puts a Chevy lump in it, he may well last the race Henry
Not a bad driver either although it pains me to say it, as you can guess, we go back to Tuscan days so he is used to having the urine extracted
Henry-F said:
teamHOLDENracing said:
I'm not a fan of meetings where everything is squashed into one day. I'd much rather have optional free practice or testing on a Friday, pratice/qually on Sat morning, Race 1 Sat afternoon, a couple of quiet sherberts with me mates in the evening, Race 2 Sunday, home for tea and muffins Sunday night
That`s my kind of racing, Friday & Sat night chewing the fat in the hospitality tent delivering excuses for today and promises for tomorrow. Where do I sign up ?Henry
Maybe the EERC should invest in one of these, we can arrange a discount to trade price, through Jan's contacts, it's a family thing !!
http://www.rototest.com/rototest-dynamometer.php
http://www.rototest.com/rototest-dynamometer.php
Henry-F said:
I would love to see a rototester at the circuit. How much would such a device cost with your massive family discount (email me a price if you wish). I know James has been quoted around £1,500 per meeting to have a dyno tester attend and it would certainly show your intention to police things properly.
Test on a performance targeted basis guided by the relative success of cars. If a car sets a time that is clearly faster than others in it`s group then you haul it in for a quick whizz. The chassis dynos don`t suffer wheel spin and seem to do the job quickly. With power being measured at the wheel rather than the flywheel you also negate any advantage expensive fancy gearboxes may give you. A cost saving.
Seems simple if you do have a dyno at the circuit. No risk of damage in transit to the rolling road, no risk of tampering between the track and the test and it`s done in plain view for all to see. You could even have your car tested yourself so you could then make sure you comply with enough weight in the car. x bhp times your class "ratio" gives you your minimum weight. Bingo. A bit of a margin because we don`t want to be seen to be overly harsh providing the wick is turned down before the next meeting and it`s still fun.
You don`t even necessarily need to do every round (although it would be favourite).
Henry
If I were to get a call from JT to investigate the cost of having a Rototest system, I'd obtain a quote, I wouldn't publish the figure as that would not be commercially fair, suffice to say that we could buy it at the right price for as stated, my co driver Jan has a family connection with the company at ownership level.Test on a performance targeted basis guided by the relative success of cars. If a car sets a time that is clearly faster than others in it`s group then you haul it in for a quick whizz. The chassis dynos don`t suffer wheel spin and seem to do the job quickly. With power being measured at the wheel rather than the flywheel you also negate any advantage expensive fancy gearboxes may give you. A cost saving.
Seems simple if you do have a dyno at the circuit. No risk of damage in transit to the rolling road, no risk of tampering between the track and the test and it`s done in plain view for all to see. You could even have your car tested yourself so you could then make sure you comply with enough weight in the car. x bhp times your class "ratio" gives you your minimum weight. Bingo. A bit of a margin because we don`t want to be seen to be overly harsh providing the wick is turned down before the next meeting and it`s still fun.
You don`t even necessarily need to do every round (although it would be favourite).
Henry
One would need to set up a fully mobile support unit, with trained operator/s, and charge a set fee for attending a given meeting, the existing Rototest demo model fits nicely into a Sprinter, and the whole thing takes about 15/20 minutes to set out, and setting up a test on a car takes about 5 mins.
As a commercial venture it would work very well. I've done the figures
and frankly the EERC could make the whole exercise very viable and income producing by providing on site testing at all EERC events and others when they are not servicing their own championship needs. Add to this the testing requirements that everybody from a individual to a race team may have and they could have themselves a proper championship regulating tool as well as a very nice money spinner, believe me, with the right control and commitment, it would work well and could pay for Itself in a very acceptable time frame, thereafter, they would be on a clear profit. 
Good for the club, and fair to all competitors for a small on cost. Have a look at their website, it's quite interesting in a mind numbing sort of way, far too technical for me but others may understand the finer points
http://www.rototest.com/rototest-dynamometer.php
Edited by Racing Rod on Thursday 27th September 16:05
I see it in fairly simple terms, rightly or wrongly, a 996 GT3 cup car belongs in the current "cup" class, soon to be GT4 from what I understand.
A 997 GT3 was designed for GT3, the fact that it under performs in that class is neither here or there in terms of justifying down grading it to the new GT4, it's still a GT3 car, end of story, and has significant advantages over a 996. The fact that Porsche have produced a £30k upgrade in an attempt to improve the car, which incidentally doesn't appear to have worked, shows that they are aware of it's limitations and in time honoured fashion suggest that owners throw their own money at it as opposed to Porsche admitting that they got it wrong and produce a real upgrade kit that makes it competitive, way too much investment from their side I would say !!. I think that they will let this one go and bring out a new 997 or 998 that does what it should do and quietly move on. They may well offer some of their existing long term customers something of a rebate or the like, but this will never be done openly !!
This would explain why quite a few original 997's have come to the market at reasonable prices and the fact that at present there is more interest from drivers/teams in acquiring a 996, precisely because it can run in the original class it was designed for and not be at any real disadvantage. I believe that potential buyers for a 997 will be thinking twice before committing as it will/should be in GT3 in Britcar or BGT and will/could under perform in comparison to other GT3 cars. There may be other series where you can race a 997 but not ones that I would like to do.
We had planned to upgrade to a 997 for the 08 season, we considered this at the beginning of the 07 season, one likes to plan a year or so ahead, but will now not do so for the reasons given above. Britcar may well consider dropping it into GT4, wrongly in my opinion, for 08, but BGT won't. I accept that drivers/teams could upgrade a 996 to compete with a basic 997 but it would cost a small fortune, and then what, the 997 runners turn on the spending tap and away we go again.
A 997 GT3 was designed for GT3, the fact that it under performs in that class is neither here or there in terms of justifying down grading it to the new GT4, it's still a GT3 car, end of story, and has significant advantages over a 996. The fact that Porsche have produced a £30k upgrade in an attempt to improve the car, which incidentally doesn't appear to have worked, shows that they are aware of it's limitations and in time honoured fashion suggest that owners throw their own money at it as opposed to Porsche admitting that they got it wrong and produce a real upgrade kit that makes it competitive, way too much investment from their side I would say !!. I think that they will let this one go and bring out a new 997 or 998 that does what it should do and quietly move on. They may well offer some of their existing long term customers something of a rebate or the like, but this will never be done openly !!
This would explain why quite a few original 997's have come to the market at reasonable prices and the fact that at present there is more interest from drivers/teams in acquiring a 996, precisely because it can run in the original class it was designed for and not be at any real disadvantage. I believe that potential buyers for a 997 will be thinking twice before committing as it will/should be in GT3 in Britcar or BGT and will/could under perform in comparison to other GT3 cars. There may be other series where you can race a 997 but not ones that I would like to do.
We had planned to upgrade to a 997 for the 08 season, we considered this at the beginning of the 07 season, one likes to plan a year or so ahead, but will now not do so for the reasons given above. Britcar may well consider dropping it into GT4, wrongly in my opinion, for 08, but BGT won't. I accept that drivers/teams could upgrade a 996 to compete with a basic 997 but it would cost a small fortune, and then what, the 997 runners turn on the spending tap and away we go again.
dino ferrana said:
Rod the upgrade package on the 997 is having an effect, Tech 9 were on the podium in race 1 in the dry at Rockingham and would have got there in Race 2 if it was about 2 laps longer. Agree the classes should not be the same as BGT when the cars are totally different and not cars built for the FIA regs. It just confusing for the casual race fan and doesn't really help either championship IMHO.
Well, that's good news, sounds like someone has found a way to make the car competitive, but at what cost??I know Phil at Tech 9 will have put his heart and sole into making the car perform and he is one of only a few that could achieve this, but I say again, at what cost ?? I am told that the up grade kit costs circa £30/35k for starters and I would guess that he has managed a few further tweaks here and there to get to this stage. I think my statement still stands based on buying a standard 997 race car.
Simon Mason said:
The reason they did reasonably well at Rockingham is the 997 is a light car and Rockingham is a twisty circuit so it was suited. The problem still exists that to drive a 997 quickly in GT3 you have to push it very hard which means in turn leaning on its tyres... hard. Widening the front and raising the wing has found a tiny bit of extra speed but it has'nt made the tyres last.
The upgrade kit incidentally is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesn't mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totally agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definitely for the longer ones.
I didn't know about the tyre problem, I heard there were issues but put this down to using Avon's, is it the same with Dunlops? I also heard that there had been a few problems with the sequential boxes.The upgrade kit incidentally is a copy of the Grand Am upgrade for the 997 and was developed by a private team then sanctioned by Porsche, because they are not interested outside LMS and the Carrera Cup. Either way for Britcar it doesn't mater because the rules will allow those with the cash and engineering know how to convert a 997 Cup into a competitive car. The consuss in GT is stick an RSR body kit and wheels on and your there.
I do totally agree that a 997 should fit into the fastest class in Britcar simply because it has "the scope" to be one of the fastest cars. Maybe not for the 1 hour races but definitely for the longer ones.
Working on the premise that with the changes that have already been announced, and the general perception that Britcar 2008 is going to be a much improved version of the 2007 season, and that wasn't bad by any means, are we going to be over subscribed for next season? I know of at least 3 teams that would be new to the full series that intend to race in Britcar 2008, and I'm sure there will be others
Should this be the case, what process should be used for securing a grid slot, or should it just be left on a first come, first served basis .
The obvious one would be for a pre commitment to the whole season with a deposit system but with an ability to "sell/re-allocate" your grid slot, via the EERC if for any reason you are unable to race.
Any other idea's?
Should this be the case, what process should be used for securing a grid slot, or should it just be left on a first come, first served basis .
The obvious one would be for a pre commitment to the whole season with a deposit system but with an ability to "sell/re-allocate" your grid slot, via the EERC if for any reason you are unable to race.
Any other idea's?
Hi Andy,
I'm fairly sure that James has some plans in the pipeline for the hospitality side of things, and perhaps a method that funds it whilst assisting in other area's, can't comment further at this stage as it's only what I've heard on the grapevine but he is definitely working on it.
As to TV coverage etc, I've heard very little on this but will assume that those competitors that have sponsors will be hoping that it can be achieved, again, I presume that there is a cost factor to this, and that there will be those who are not too fussed about this aspect one way or another.
Your idea's have merit and if the race weekends were to be run in the way you suggest, I think it will further increase demand for grid slots, so I come back to my original question, what's the best method of securing grid slots, should the series become over subscribed, whilst being fair to all?
I'm fairly sure that James has some plans in the pipeline for the hospitality side of things, and perhaps a method that funds it whilst assisting in other area's, can't comment further at this stage as it's only what I've heard on the grapevine but he is definitely working on it.
As to TV coverage etc, I've heard very little on this but will assume that those competitors that have sponsors will be hoping that it can be achieved, again, I presume that there is a cost factor to this, and that there will be those who are not too fussed about this aspect one way or another.
Your idea's have merit and if the race weekends were to be run in the way you suggest, I think it will further increase demand for grid slots, so I come back to my original question, what's the best method of securing grid slots, should the series become over subscribed, whilst being fair to all?
Henry-F said:
My understanding is that You will be asked for around £2,400 at the start of the season. £300 of that will be allocated to each of the 8 rounds as pre-payment. You then pay the balance for each meeting in the usual way. If you fail to turn up I suspect you`ll lose the £300 for that round. James will, I presume, sell any spare slots on the grid as they become available through no shows or increased capacity for that particular venue.
Henry
Sounds reasonable, certainly helps in terms of pre commitment on both sides.Henry
I would however like to see some system in place for a rebate to cover unusual or unforeseen events. We had a situation this year where we had a serious off in pre season testing and ended up missing the first 4 rounds, I think it would be fair to allow for something like this or in fact any reasonable and qualified excuse, i.e falling ill, stuck in Botswana due to civil unrest, etc etc, most out of your hands type events as opposed to the self inflicted such as, had too much to drink at my sisters wedding and forgot to set my alarm. In essence, if your grid slot can be utilized and the EERC don't lose out, then you get a credit.
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