RE: Ringside Seat: Safety at the 'ring
Friday 13th July 2012
Just putting the words safety and Nurburgring together in one sentence look incongruous to me right now. But it's a topic I'd like to raise again.
Last night I went to a typical mid-week tourist session and interviewed a random selection of drivers in the car park, and asked a few basic questions. How many laps have they done, which side can you overtake on tonight, and what should they do in the case of an accident?
Ringside Seat: Safety at the 'ring
Some common sense might reduce the risk, but tourist days will always be dangerous. So should that stop you?
This week I was at a funeral for my friend Charly who died doing what he loved, riding the Nurburgring Nordschleife on his motorbike. It's something that I used to do practically every day, but not any more. I've discussed this whole topic of bikes on the 'ring before, and I'm not going to go over it again here.
But what I am going to talk about, for better or for worse, is the matter of safety at the Nurburgring during public hours. Charly died, as many have before him, after crashing on fluids. Oil and water spills will never be eliminated, so long as we insist on driving the track in water-cooled and oil-lubricated motorised contraptions. But the sheer number of spills and their severity could, in my opinion, be reduced with some simple briefings or warnings.
The answers were surprising, to say the least.
Nearly half of those I asked thought the best thing to do after an accident was to drive slowly back to the car park. Some people even thought they'd be prosecuted for stopping.
Look at the photo above for proof of that mindset at work. Look at the wing-mirror. The car has crashed, he's damaged the tyre, it's practically off the rim. How does this driver know that an oil-cooler or radiator isn't broken? Answer: he doesn't.
And he'd rather drive the car back to the car park than stop and get a 200-euro recovery truck. The rim will cost more than that, I'm sure.
It's not just a bad decision, it's a common occurrence and one that claims lives regularly. But what really cooks my brain is that I *know* idiots and unfortunates like the guy above do stupid stuff every other day, and I still want to ride the track!
Charly knew it. We had a big conversation about this just a week before his fatal accident. The Germans have a lovely phrase to describe hobbies and desires that make no sense. They call it a rusty nail in the brain. He not only declared he had this nail in the brain, but also pointed mine out.
And I'm not the only one, hundreds of bikers ride the 'ring every week. Some of them ride without even knowing the dangers, but even if they know about them, it still hurts when they crash.
Nurburgring. Safety. Preaching ends.
Audi photo: by Jorg Jakowski
Discussion
Shame to hear of bikers getting killed, it really is, but maybe it's time for bikers to accept that the ring is very different now? Once upon a time, the hardcore guys were the only people fussed for using it, the kind that would stop after an accident.
Now it's become a highly fashionable and famous stretch of road, toll road, but road all the same, and one which will have a hugely higher incidence of folks losing oil/water than anywhere else.
Just to add, if I'd had a blowout like that I'd stop, check for leaks, if there were none I'd probably carry on until the next escape road, change the wheel, then rejoin.
Now it's become a highly fashionable and famous stretch of road, toll road, but road all the same, and one which will have a hugely higher incidence of folks losing oil/water than anywhere else.
Just to add, if I'd had a blowout like that I'd stop, check for leaks, if there were none I'd probably carry on until the next escape road, change the wheel, then rejoin.
Good article.
It's not just after accidents though, the amount of sheds that get taken around is laughable, but (for contrast) when Charlie Broomfield tried to take his Meteor powered Rover SD1 on track there the authourities wouldn't allow it despite that fact that it's meticulously maintained and well engineered in the first place.
I don't necessarily think it's just the 'ring either. Some shocking examples being taken 'round ayt UK track day too.
Maybe some form of scrutineering should take place before a car is allowed on track?
It's not just after accidents though, the amount of sheds that get taken around is laughable, but (for contrast) when Charlie Broomfield tried to take his Meteor powered Rover SD1 on track there the authourities wouldn't allow it despite that fact that it's meticulously maintained and well engineered in the first place.
I don't necessarily think it's just the 'ring either. Some shocking examples being taken 'round ayt UK track day too.
Maybe some form of scrutineering should take place before a car is allowed on track?
off topic slightly, but I haven't been to the ring in 5 years and was planning to go in Sept, but can't find third party insurance and until this is resolved the risk however small is too great. While I think it's unlikley my car will drop fluid it is 18 yrs old and there's alway the possiblilty something will happen.
People not stopping after an accident or regularly checking their car is only going to cause more accidents and hence put more insurers off offering any cover.
p.s. if anyone know's a company that offers third party cover on TF days, please post up
Maybe a German insurance solution?
People not stopping after an accident or regularly checking their car is only going to cause more accidents and hence put more insurers off offering any cover.
p.s. if anyone know's a company that offers third party cover on TF days, please post up
Maybe a German insurance solution?Just a quick question/idle thought. So don't snap my head off please.
I've not been so can't give a huge informed list of reasons and ways things could be dealt with better, But does anyone think if the recovery costs weren't so expensive (I know that's more opinion, but possibly it is the opinion of a lot of people who go there) would more people be inclined to stop ring for a recovery service than try and limp it back?
RIP Charly.
I've not been so can't give a huge informed list of reasons and ways things could be dealt with better, But does anyone think if the recovery costs weren't so expensive (I know that's more opinion, but possibly it is the opinion of a lot of people who go there) would more people be inclined to stop ring for a recovery service than try and limp it back?
RIP Charly.
DanDC5 said:
I've not been so can't give a huge informed list of reasons and ways things could be dealt with better, But does anyone think if the recovery costs weren't so expensive (I know that's more opinion, but possibly it is the opinion of a lot of people who go there) would more people be inclined to stop ring for a recovery service than try and limp it back?
RIP Charly.
Exactly - costs should be proportional to the accident, categories A,B,C for example, the 2 articles in the picture could demonstrate this. Also, a steady supply of concrete dust type product at regular intervals/marshall points?RIP Charly.
Dan DC5 - I think it's a fair question.... but I think the NBR authorities are hand-tied, I don't think it's profiteering, they need to set such prices high to encourage some restraint.
Similarly, it's not actually in the interests of the NBR or its customers if insurers start covering track days.
A, How many cars is too many on there?
B, How many ambulances will you need?
R
Similarly, it's not actually in the interests of the NBR or its customers if insurers start covering track days.
A, How many cars is too many on there?
B, How many ambulances will you need?
R
Marwood79 said:
Dan DC5 - I think it's a fair question.... but I think the NBR authorities are hand-tied, I don't think it's profiteering, they need to set such prices high to encourage some restraint.
Similarly, it's not actually in the interests of the NBR or its customers if insurers start covering track days.
A, How many cars is too many on there?
B, How many ambulances will you need?
R
To add with apologies for not doing so before - my condolencies to the author and to the family of the chap who died through no real fault of his own... very sad.Similarly, it's not actually in the interests of the NBR or its customers if insurers start covering track days.
A, How many cars is too many on there?
B, How many ambulances will you need?
R
Condolences to all affected Dale.
Think your conclusion is the right one, bikers are just too vulnerable on TF days - the one weekend I went with friends someone came off on fluids on the run down towards Breidscheid - they went straight into the barriers and didn't move, we never did find out if they survived or not.
Have wanted to go back for a while, but as mentioned above the insurance issue makes it too big a risk for me. Did do a single lap 3rd party in the NSX last year and had a ball despite the 3P only, so I will go back at some point...but possibly to a track-day event not a TF.
...which is probably what bikers need to do now, unless those running it* set maybe 1 or 2 hours aside each day for bikes only - 1st hour and last hour, perhaps? Or a lunch 'break'? Won't eliminate the fluids risk, but at least there's more chance of such being spotted before the next Charly loses his luck...
Scrutineering won't help, as how can you spot a hose about to let go under pressure, or a chap who's of the mindset to carry on regardless? And you won't change attitudes as easily as hoses...
* They won't, they only care about maximising revenue at the expense of everything else.
Think your conclusion is the right one, bikers are just too vulnerable on TF days - the one weekend I went with friends someone came off on fluids on the run down towards Breidscheid - they went straight into the barriers and didn't move, we never did find out if they survived or not.
Have wanted to go back for a while, but as mentioned above the insurance issue makes it too big a risk for me. Did do a single lap 3rd party in the NSX last year and had a ball despite the 3P only, so I will go back at some point...but possibly to a track-day event not a TF.
...which is probably what bikers need to do now, unless those running it* set maybe 1 or 2 hours aside each day for bikes only - 1st hour and last hour, perhaps? Or a lunch 'break'? Won't eliminate the fluids risk, but at least there's more chance of such being spotted before the next Charly loses his luck...
Scrutineering won't help, as how can you spot a hose about to let go under pressure, or a chap who's of the mindset to carry on regardless? And you won't change attitudes as easily as hoses...
* They won't, they only care about maximising revenue at the expense of everything else.
Very sad news Dale, and disapointing results from your quick poll in the car park. I personally enjoy the mix of cars and bikes on track, it's another thing which makes the Ring special and different.
It would be time consuming, but I do wonder if everyone should be given a 30 second briefing and basic instructions printed on the back of their ring card would be sensible before they go through the gate? Looking at the card I had from a couple of months ago it advertises the Essen Motor show, this could have the emergency number, ADACs number and basic info like drive on the right, what to do in an emergency etc?
Dave
It would be time consuming, but I do wonder if everyone should be given a 30 second briefing and basic instructions printed on the back of their ring card would be sensible before they go through the gate? Looking at the card I had from a couple of months ago it advertises the Essen Motor show, this could have the emergency number, ADACs number and basic info like drive on the right, what to do in an emergency etc?
Dave
Edited by Fishy Dave on Friday 13th July 13:18
Introduce mandatory recovery insurance imposed by track in order to drive. Say 20 Euro for the day. Fair and as most people won't crash and have no inclination to do so would work well. People would have no excuse but to get off track asap. Could also make that a mandatory requirement.
I went there with scumball in 2007, a volvo T5 which was part of our lot popped its oil filter of and dumped a huge amount of oil on the track, others had coolant dumpage.
We were all briefed to stop when a breakdown or fault/ crash occured- however a bike went over the t5's oil slick (before the clean up team arrived) and then fell off two corners away saying that the oil slick 2 corners previous had caused it ( suppose it could ..).
So even if you stop its damage limitation at best - I feel very sorry for the chap who died and also for his friends and family but I just cant see what can be done about it?
TBH most of the motorcyclists there were very safe but a few were treating it like it was the last race in the TT and going at mental speeds- one even used the wing of the car I was driving as an arm rest as he overtook during a bend!!
As a motorcyclist myself I would love to ride the nordschliefe - but without any cars or fluid spillages (bikes also dump fluids!).
We were all briefed to stop when a breakdown or fault/ crash occured- however a bike went over the t5's oil slick (before the clean up team arrived) and then fell off two corners away saying that the oil slick 2 corners previous had caused it ( suppose it could ..).
So even if you stop its damage limitation at best - I feel very sorry for the chap who died and also for his friends and family but I just cant see what can be done about it?
TBH most of the motorcyclists there were very safe but a few were treating it like it was the last race in the TT and going at mental speeds- one even used the wing of the car I was driving as an arm rest as he overtook during a bend!!
As a motorcyclist myself I would love to ride the nordschliefe - but without any cars or fluid spillages (bikes also dump fluids!).
I did my first trip to the 'Ring the day of this incident; RIP Charly. I found the thought that someone had actually died quite disturbing, but given my experience it didn't come as a great surprise.
In fact, another biker was carted off the track just a few hours previous.
The biggest shock for me was the fact you turn up, pay some money and on you go! Having done a few UK trackdays, the lack of disclaimer forms, rules, guidance, emergency proceedures etc. was a bit of a shock to me. Part of me found this realaxed approach quite refreshing given the culture of the UK, however I firmly believe that at least some guidance and rules would improve safety and no doubt save lives.
The very fact that a nutter can turn up in a clapped out deathtrap, or worse a weathy nutter in a serious bit of kit and do as many laps as they like, how they like worries me somewhat.
That Saturday there were quite a few incidents, I don't know whether this is normal or not. What I do know is some areas were very, very slippy due to fluid spills and I had a few 'surprise' moments myself. Given this, watching the bikes go around and overtake scared the crap out of me and I have too much self preservation to feel the need to lap there on a bike. My little mx5 was scary enough!
That said I absolutely loved the place and will no doubt go back. I hope it can remain open for all to enjoy in to the future, but a few sensible improvements here and there wouldn't go a miss...
In fact, another biker was carted off the track just a few hours previous.
The biggest shock for me was the fact you turn up, pay some money and on you go! Having done a few UK trackdays, the lack of disclaimer forms, rules, guidance, emergency proceedures etc. was a bit of a shock to me. Part of me found this realaxed approach quite refreshing given the culture of the UK, however I firmly believe that at least some guidance and rules would improve safety and no doubt save lives.
The very fact that a nutter can turn up in a clapped out deathtrap, or worse a weathy nutter in a serious bit of kit and do as many laps as they like, how they like worries me somewhat.
That Saturday there were quite a few incidents, I don't know whether this is normal or not. What I do know is some areas were very, very slippy due to fluid spills and I had a few 'surprise' moments myself. Given this, watching the bikes go around and overtake scared the crap out of me and I have too much self preservation to feel the need to lap there on a bike. My little mx5 was scary enough!
That said I absolutely loved the place and will no doubt go back. I hope it can remain open for all to enjoy in to the future, but a few sensible improvements here and there wouldn't go a miss...
RIP Charly.
Cars an bikes simply don't mix, especially on TF days
Bikers are selfish, arrogant pricks that find it hard to believe there's anything faster than them, so don't check their mirrors nor do they yield to faster traffic.
Car driver are selfish, arrogant pricks that don't appreciate how vulnerable bikers are, and how difficult it is to change your line when corenring hard on a bike.
Bad combination.
I'd love to take a bike on the ring but would never do it on a TF day.
Cars an bikes simply don't mix, especially on TF days
Bikers are selfish, arrogant pricks that find it hard to believe there's anything faster than them, so don't check their mirrors nor do they yield to faster traffic.
Car driver are selfish, arrogant pricks that don't appreciate how vulnerable bikers are, and how difficult it is to change your line when corenring hard on a bike.
Bad combination.
I'd love to take a bike on the ring but would never do it on a TF day.
Life Saab Itch said:
Good article.
It's not just after accidents though, the amount of sheds that get taken around is laughable, but (for contrast) when Charlie Broomfield tried to take his Meteor powered Rover SD1 on track there the authourities wouldn't allow it despite that fact that it's meticulously maintained and well engineered in the first place.
I don't necessarily think it's just the 'ring either. Some shocking examples being taken 'round ayt UK track day too.
Maybe some form of scrutineering should take place before a car is allowed on track?
You haven't been for a while at a guess?It's not just after accidents though, the amount of sheds that get taken around is laughable, but (for contrast) when Charlie Broomfield tried to take his Meteor powered Rover SD1 on track there the authourities wouldn't allow it despite that fact that it's meticulously maintained and well engineered in the first place.
I don't necessarily think it's just the 'ring either. Some shocking examples being taken 'round ayt UK track day too.
Maybe some form of scrutineering should take place before a car is allowed on track?
Things have changed. They pull alot of stuff over at the gates and have a mooch over stuff that looks a bit 'shonky'
Nightjar said:
I don't necessarily think it's just the 'ring either. Some shocking examples being taken 'round ayt UK track day too.
Although most of these will have more run off and better sightlines round/through corners, as well as having much shorter run back to the pits and therefore less time spent in the way of other traffic. I say this as someone who's never actually been on a trackday, but am I right?
Some more things:
• I'd like to see €1 more on every lap ticket, if recovery and marshalling was free.
• The marshalls do a good job of stopping the shonkers, but it's a numbers game and it's not always the shonkiest car that will spring a random leak/failure.
• Next week an S1000RR arrives, and I'll still do a lap or two.
I'd do a lot more laps if I could figure out a way to get some bike-only time.
• I'd like to see €1 more on every lap ticket, if recovery and marshalling was free.
• The marshalls do a good job of stopping the shonkers, but it's a numbers game and it's not always the shonkiest car that will spring a random leak/failure.
• Next week an S1000RR arrives, and I'll still do a lap or two.
I'd do a lot more laps if I could figure out a way to get some bike-only time.
I was at the Ring the same weekend, it unfortunately sounded fairly serious from the car-park, sorry to see he was a friend Dale - RIP Charly.
We of course discussed cars & bikes that evening and could only think of running a TF day as 45 minutes for cars only followed by 15 minutes for bikes only, profit may be down but lives would hopefully be saved.
We of course discussed cars & bikes that evening and could only think of running a TF day as 45 minutes for cars only followed by 15 minutes for bikes only, profit may be down but lives would hopefully be saved.
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