2013 Ferrari FF
Discussion
Would this kind of thing suit you, dimensions-wise OP? I realise these are more commonly found in flat pack furniture so highly unlikely to be to the temperature demands of carbon brakes but they they don't look a lot worse than what you have removed!
https://www.accu.co.uk/2272-joint-connector-bolts?...
Failing that, they do custom manufacture so could give you some advice regarding materials. Maybe go Titanium?
https://www.accu.co.uk/p/27-custom-manufacture
These appear to be the OEM things you need, but they are $18 USD each, so the 40 you would need would come in at about $755 incl shipping.
That's a tad steep, even with the Ferrari tax!
https://racingbrake.com/ccm-01/
Personally I'd get some made up, surely you can obtain them for less than that.
https://www.accu.co.uk/2272-joint-connector-bolts?...
Failing that, they do custom manufacture so could give you some advice regarding materials. Maybe go Titanium?
https://www.accu.co.uk/p/27-custom-manufacture
These appear to be the OEM things you need, but they are $18 USD each, so the 40 you would need would come in at about $755 incl shipping.
That's a tad steep, even with the Ferrari tax!
https://racingbrake.com/ccm-01/
Personally I'd get some made up, surely you can obtain them for less than that.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Monday 31st July 15:12
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Monday 31st July 15:51
PurpleTurtle said:
Would this kind of thing suit you, dimensions-wise OP? I realise these are more commonly found in flat pack furniture so highly unlikely to be to the temperature demands of carbon brakes but they they don't look a lot worse than what you have removed!
https://www.accu.co.uk/2272-joint-connector-bolts?...
Failing that, they do custom manufacture so could give you some advice regarding materials. Maybe go Titanium?
https://www.accu.co.uk/p/27-custom-manufacture
These appear to be the OEM things you need, but they are $18 USD each, so the 40 you would need would come in at about $755 incl shipping.
That's a tad steep, even with the Ferrari tax!
https://racingbrake.com/ccm-01/
Personally I'd get some made up, surely you can obtain them for less than that.
Thanks for that, much appreciate the research!https://www.accu.co.uk/2272-joint-connector-bolts?...
Failing that, they do custom manufacture so could give you some advice regarding materials. Maybe go Titanium?
https://www.accu.co.uk/p/27-custom-manufacture
These appear to be the OEM things you need, but they are $18 USD each, so the 40 you would need would come in at about $755 incl shipping.
That's a tad steep, even with the Ferrari tax!
https://racingbrake.com/ccm-01/
Personally I'd get some made up, surely you can obtain them for less than that.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Monday 31st July 15:12
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Monday 31st July 15:51
The furniture style bolts came up in my search over the weekend and I came to the same conclusion as you... not quite automotive spec, but then I'd argue the same for the Brembo ones!!
The McLaren link is very interesting, shows that *somebody* out there is making them for sale.
Fonzey said:
Thanks for that, much appreciate the research!
The furniture style bolts came up in my search over the weekend and I came to the same conclusion as you... not quite automotive spec, but then I'd argue the same for the Brembo ones!!
The McLaren link is very interesting, shows that *somebody* out there is making them for sale.
No probs. I Google'd 'Brembo CCM rotor bolts' to happen across it. The furniture style bolts came up in my search over the weekend and I came to the same conclusion as you... not quite automotive spec, but then I'd argue the same for the Brembo ones!!
The McLaren link is very interesting, shows that *somebody* out there is making them for sale.
It seems this is not the first time this subject has come up on PH
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Looks like Bentley and Lamborghini did a recall, Ferrari did not (AFAIK). That would probably explain why they won't sell you just the bolts in Europe, as it's a shoddy design exposed by salty roads, probably not such an issue in California, where they seem to be on sale.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Monday 31st July 17:05
Odd failure mode. Assuming these aren't poorly-made 2-piece bolts (shaft and head friction-welded together), I wonder if that's a combination of a stress raiser + thermal expansion + corrosion causing a crack to form from over-tension, in turn allowing corrosion? Assume they're coated, so any crack would expose virgin material?
Are these the bolts you're after?
https://racingbrake.com/ccm-01/
If the spec is the same, talking to some McLaren specialists might be worthwhile?
I'm assuming you've found this thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ccm-brak...
Are these the bolts you're after?
https://racingbrake.com/ccm-01/
If the spec is the same, talking to some McLaren specialists might be worthwhile?
I'm assuming you've found this thread: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/ccm-brak...
Apparently these are balanced assembly bought in from Brembo hence the bolts are not really serviceable and are replaced as complete units and as these get really hot they will have been designed with the same thermal expansion requirements so probably wouldn't work to swap for something stronger like titanium.
Thanks all for the suggestions, links, recommendations etc.
I'm not sure I buy the 'balanced assembly' theory purely on the basis that there's no machined balancing marks or telltales. At least not that I can find. So if the disc and bell are both perfectly balanced in isolation, then providing identical hardware is used... it shouldn't really matter, right?
I do strongly agree though that any old material can't just be lobbed in because it sounds strong or exotic. Definitely some research needed, and research takes time.
Luckily though I've had a bit of rampant progress today and I'm chuffed to bits with the outcome.
As part of my Monday morning activities, I rang around a couple of specialists. One of which was pretty local, and gave me some advice on removing the disc from the car without detaching calipers etc. So in 5mins between calls, I had both front discs off.
The specialist was the same one that explained to me that this was very common, but usually went unnoticed and wrote off a disc as per the various links that have been posted in this thread already.
He was however interested in finding solutions for a proactive repair kit, so was more than happy to help me out. He invited me down with the discs and said he'd give them the once over for me, and try to come up with a plan.
Later in the day I headed over, nestled in a private spot around the back of a farm was a haven for car geeks. Plenty of exotica dotted around and some meticulously organised workshops belonging to https://ensoautomotive.com/
I met Michael, thanked him for his time so far and we took the discs out for a look. They passed the visual inspection, and so we got onto ideas for the fixings. Michael has some ideas, but they will take time and research. After a long chat about all things Ferrari, Lotus, etc - Michael scurried off and came back with some used CCS discs from various applications and got to work stripping them of their valuable fixings!
After a bit of messing about we found that not only are these fixings annoying to source, but they also come in different sizes! Luckily though we were able to salvage enough to complete my disc and get me back on the road. The fixings we scrounged were in far better nick than mine too.
Even when rebuilding the disc, another one of my fixings started to snap as Michael was applying the barely noticeable 10nm of torque as per spec - so that was yet another to go in the bin.
Needless to say, I'm over the moon with what we achieved in an hour or so. The plan is absolutely to source/make some replacements and do the whole lot properly - but we now have the luxury of time to figure it out and do things properly.
Big thumbs up to Michael @ Enso, great to know I have access to such a great specialist and look forward to leaning on his services in the near future.
Got home and took this for a bit of fun.
I'm tied up for a couple of days now, but hoping that by the time I can come back to the car I will have some wheels and tyres ready to go on. Salivating at the thought of driving this car again.
I'm not sure I buy the 'balanced assembly' theory purely on the basis that there's no machined balancing marks or telltales. At least not that I can find. So if the disc and bell are both perfectly balanced in isolation, then providing identical hardware is used... it shouldn't really matter, right?
I do strongly agree though that any old material can't just be lobbed in because it sounds strong or exotic. Definitely some research needed, and research takes time.
Luckily though I've had a bit of rampant progress today and I'm chuffed to bits with the outcome.
As part of my Monday morning activities, I rang around a couple of specialists. One of which was pretty local, and gave me some advice on removing the disc from the car without detaching calipers etc. So in 5mins between calls, I had both front discs off.
The specialist was the same one that explained to me that this was very common, but usually went unnoticed and wrote off a disc as per the various links that have been posted in this thread already.
He was however interested in finding solutions for a proactive repair kit, so was more than happy to help me out. He invited me down with the discs and said he'd give them the once over for me, and try to come up with a plan.
Later in the day I headed over, nestled in a private spot around the back of a farm was a haven for car geeks. Plenty of exotica dotted around and some meticulously organised workshops belonging to https://ensoautomotive.com/
I met Michael, thanked him for his time so far and we took the discs out for a look. They passed the visual inspection, and so we got onto ideas for the fixings. Michael has some ideas, but they will take time and research. After a long chat about all things Ferrari, Lotus, etc - Michael scurried off and came back with some used CCS discs from various applications and got to work stripping them of their valuable fixings!
After a bit of messing about we found that not only are these fixings annoying to source, but they also come in different sizes! Luckily though we were able to salvage enough to complete my disc and get me back on the road. The fixings we scrounged were in far better nick than mine too.
Even when rebuilding the disc, another one of my fixings started to snap as Michael was applying the barely noticeable 10nm of torque as per spec - so that was yet another to go in the bin.
Needless to say, I'm over the moon with what we achieved in an hour or so. The plan is absolutely to source/make some replacements and do the whole lot properly - but we now have the luxury of time to figure it out and do things properly.
Big thumbs up to Michael @ Enso, great to know I have access to such a great specialist and look forward to leaning on his services in the near future.
Got home and took this for a bit of fun.
I'm tied up for a couple of days now, but hoping that by the time I can come back to the car I will have some wheels and tyres ready to go on. Salivating at the thought of driving this car again.
very interested in this thread as I had a similar issue with my 458 when the handbrake was rubbing and had left a grove in the drum. (the drum is part of the brake disc). Ferrari's option was to replace the full disc. My option was to take it to the local machinest and have the grove taken out and save £Ks 
The problem then came when i was asking ferrari for the torque specs for those bolts, plus a set of new bolts. Having just stuck a set of BTCC floating and AP500R calipers on my M3 track toy I thought this would be a nice, easy and cheap ask but Ferrari said the same as you, the only get provided the full assembly and did not have either the bolts or the torque specs! In the end the local machinest was so good he simply stuck the whole assembly on the machine (not touching those bolts) and did it that way - but it would be much much easier if we can get the bolts!
hence
1) very interested to follow the progress
2) What is the procedure for taking the discs off without removing the calipers
thanks!
The problem then came when i was asking ferrari for the torque specs for those bolts, plus a set of new bolts. Having just stuck a set of BTCC floating and AP500R calipers on my M3 track toy I thought this would be a nice, easy and cheap ask but Ferrari said the same as you, the only get provided the full assembly and did not have either the bolts or the torque specs! In the end the local machinest was so good he simply stuck the whole assembly on the machine (not touching those bolts) and did it that way - but it would be much much easier if we can get the bolts!
hence
1) very interested to follow the progress
2) What is the procedure for taking the discs off without removing the calipers
thanks!
Fonzey said:
Thanks all for the suggestions, links, recommendations etc.
I'm not sure I buy the 'balanced assembly' theory purely on the basis that there's no machined balancing marks or telltales. At least not that I can find. So if the disc and bell are both perfectly balanced in isolation, then providing identical hardware is used... it shouldn't really matter, right?
You can achieve something approximating a balanced assembly without machining by selectively installing the parts to improve the overall balance of the final assembly so in theory they could check the balance of the 2 parts individually and assemble them to improve the overall balance.I'm not sure I buy the 'balanced assembly' theory purely on the basis that there's no machined balancing marks or telltales. At least not that I can find. So if the disc and bell are both perfectly balanced in isolation, then providing identical hardware is used... it shouldn't really matter, right?
It is (was?) a method used to help balance the turbine on a jet engine (each blade is weighted before starting assembly and a computer works out the best installation order on to the disc).
I’m absolutely dying to hear about the wheel outcome..
I think I would have started there to ensure that the car handles well. I once picked up a used Audi R8 that tramlined badly and crabbed on accelerating. The difference a few psi made (one tire was at 19psi) was startling. I guess 4 wheel drive cars with sensitive torque vectoring are reliant on even tyres etc.
Waiting in anticipation on the next instalment and there’s something deeply satisfying about bringing a car like this back to prime condition. Even most dealers won’t do the prep you will eventually do to it and will want a huge premium whilst cutting many corners.
I think I would have started there to ensure that the car handles well. I once picked up a used Audi R8 that tramlined badly and crabbed on accelerating. The difference a few psi made (one tire was at 19psi) was startling. I guess 4 wheel drive cars with sensitive torque vectoring are reliant on even tyres etc.
Waiting in anticipation on the next instalment and there’s something deeply satisfying about bringing a car like this back to prime condition. Even most dealers won’t do the prep you will eventually do to it and will want a huge premium whilst cutting many corners.
Edited by Paracetamol on Tuesday 1st August 11:48
I really doubt that M6 bolts will affect the overall balance when you think of the mass of the wheel and tyre a lot further out than the disc bolt PCD.
Secondly, there are companies that refurbish ceramic disks, Rebrake is one, Surface Transform is another. They would definitely have the necessary new bolts.
Edit:
The material typically used for the bolts is AISI 316Ti :
"AISI 316Ti is a stainless, austenitic titanium stabilized chromium-nickel-molybdenum steel.
Titanium stabilization makes the AISI 316Ti more susceptible to pitting corrosion and has less resistance to chloride-induced stress corrosion cracking. The maximum application temperature can be increased with the titanium alloy".
Which really makes you wonder if it is such a great material choice for brake discs?
Secondly, there are companies that refurbish ceramic disks, Rebrake is one, Surface Transform is another. They would definitely have the necessary new bolts.
Edit:
The material typically used for the bolts is AISI 316Ti :
"AISI 316Ti is a stainless, austenitic titanium stabilized chromium-nickel-molybdenum steel.
Titanium stabilization makes the AISI 316Ti more susceptible to pitting corrosion and has less resistance to chloride-induced stress corrosion cracking. The maximum application temperature can be increased with the titanium alloy".
Which really makes you wonder if it is such a great material choice for brake discs?
Edited by BOR on Tuesday 1st August 10:24
Edited by BOR on Tuesday 1st August 15:29
Mucho interesting. I am working on adding some S8 CCB’s to my old D3 Audi, and I’ve come up against Audi documentation that forbids touching those bolts that hold the rotor to the centre hub. Intrigued and armed with a knackered old disc I stripped the hub off and inspected it all.
Other than a specific arrangement of conical washers I can find absolutely no reason for the warning. Everything centres up automatically on assembly. No idea why they’re so insistent about it.
Other than a specific arrangement of conical washers I can find absolutely no reason for the warning. Everything centres up automatically on assembly. No idea why they’re so insistent about it.
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