My Electric Car thread!
Discussion
Crease said:
ok then, so say, for instance that there was a massive alternator strapped to the motor of the electric car, surely it would increase the distance that it was able to travel,
You need energy to turn the alternator - that energy comes from the battery.The alternator may be 80% efficient, so you may only lose 20% of the power, but battery charging and regulation losses will add another 30%, so you'll be losing about 50% of the power you spend turning the alternator.
So your range will plummet.
ah, i see, thanks for explaining.
maybe ill leave the inventing for someone else then.
i was watching a top gear, where they tested electric cars, and they basically said that electric wasnt worth it, and that hydrogen was the way forward, so i look forward to this 'test' as its sure to give a real day to day view on electric cars capability
maybe ill leave the inventing for someone else then.
i was watching a top gear, where they tested electric cars, and they basically said that electric wasnt worth it, and that hydrogen was the way forward, so i look forward to this 'test' as its sure to give a real day to day view on electric cars capability
Crease said:
i was watching a top gear, where they tested electric cars, and they basically said that electric wasnt worth it, and that hydrogen was the way forward, so i look forward to this 'test' as its sure to give a real day to day view on electric cars capability
Try watching the film Who Killed The Electric Car (recommended earlier in the thread - you can find it on Google Videos if you don't want to buy it) - they cover this in some depth.20 years ago everyone was saying hydrogen cars would be 20 years off. Guess what; today we're being told a similar story.
How are we going to transport hydrogen to fuel stations? That still needs answering. Electric cars? We already have a grid in place which can be relatively easily adapted to delivery electricity to charging points.
FreeLitres said:
However, the car actually has a small car battery in the front which powers the lights, power steering and a few other bits'n'bobs. This must somehow be topped up in the way you describe.
The low voltage battery is "charged" from the High Voltage Energy storage battery via a DC-DC converter. This steps down the several hundred volts of the main battery to the 12v(nominal) of the low voltage battery. The low voltage battery is simply required because the automotive Tier1 supply chain has yet to go to volume (for cost, practicality and safety reasons) for "high voltage" support electronics such as wipers, washers, lighting, so they are still stuck with having to use low voltage components etc. There are a lot of issues with going competely HV through out, imagine for example what a minor ding that breaks a HV lamp cluster could cause, or a short circuit in a 400V heated seat insert !!!I've been driving round in a range extended Plug in car for the last few weeks, and it's actually pretty decent! (well it would be if it weren't going to cost >£30k) However, it probably is the near term future of the mass market "family car" ;-)
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 13th December 21:38
" However, it probably is the near term future of the mass market "family car" ;-)"
Just a minor problem with this as with all attempts at electric cars as we now know them, there is not enough lithium in the world to provide suitable batteries for more than around 1/3 of the cars currently on the planet, we reach "peak lithium" rather too rapidly. For electric cars to work over a long distance they need to be powered as they drive, I believe they have trialled a system with massive electric coils generating a field which will charge the car as it passes over it.
Even if this works, & it's a long way from being rolled out as yet, it would mean digging up every road in the country to make it work & you still need to generate the electricity from somewhere, which, as everyone is (stupidly & ignorantly) running scared of atomic power which is the only short term solution that might just buy us the time we need to develop further technologies, that could be kinda tricky.
Very lightweight cars, smaller batteries & onboard diesel generators just might get you somewhere in terms of decent range, but if we insist on these cars being as sophisticated as current vehicles with power hungry heating & aircon systems & being full of nice comfy trim, airbags & 5 star safety rated steel structures, to say nothing of carrying a couple of passengers then it just ain't gonna happen.
For the foreseeable future electric will remain as short distance commute & city car transport only.
Just a minor problem with this as with all attempts at electric cars as we now know them, there is not enough lithium in the world to provide suitable batteries for more than around 1/3 of the cars currently on the planet, we reach "peak lithium" rather too rapidly. For electric cars to work over a long distance they need to be powered as they drive, I believe they have trialled a system with massive electric coils generating a field which will charge the car as it passes over it.
Even if this works, & it's a long way from being rolled out as yet, it would mean digging up every road in the country to make it work & you still need to generate the electricity from somewhere, which, as everyone is (stupidly & ignorantly) running scared of atomic power which is the only short term solution that might just buy us the time we need to develop further technologies, that could be kinda tricky.
Very lightweight cars, smaller batteries & onboard diesel generators just might get you somewhere in terms of decent range, but if we insist on these cars being as sophisticated as current vehicles with power hungry heating & aircon systems & being full of nice comfy trim, airbags & 5 star safety rated steel structures, to say nothing of carrying a couple of passengers then it just ain't gonna happen.
For the foreseeable future electric will remain as short distance commute & city car transport only.
Russ Bost said:
Stuff
We know the electric car is not suited to most drivers due to the average daily milage is more then the range of a EV and they are far far worse for the environment then any car yet invented and if everyone buys one all kittens will explode with enough force to knock the moon out of orbit.Its about someones experience with an electric car so please try to keep this on track as some of us have an interest
Lots of interesting debate here! As Thinforth said though, I was hoping this thread would be more about me sharing my experiences and to answer people's questions about living with an EV on a daily basis, rather than a general discussion on the future of electric car and how green they really are, etc.
Anyway, some more of my experiences and observations:
Steaming up can be an issue. As previously mentioned, the aircon and heater sap power from the main battery so I tend to minimise their use. This can lead to problems with steaming up - especially if it's raining outside and you get damp clothes. My solution is to use RainX Antifog on the inside of the windows. I have never used this on my other cars, but it has really worked a treat here. I still get moisture on the inside of the glass, but it tends to be a thicker film rather than the tiny droplets that scatter the light.
With the strange weather this week, I have discovered that the car gets really blown around by the wind! It's a fairly tall car and quite narrow. You really have to be concentrating when you get sudden strong sidewinds or you will end up in the wrong lane.
The rear windows are heavily tinted as standard. As first I didn't like this as I felt my view of the cars behind was impaired at night. However, I have got used to it and now think it is brilliant! I no longer get dazzled by numpties with those powerful aftermarket HIDs that people are fitting on their old bangers. Whichever car I get next, I'm tempted to get the rear windows tinted.
The driving position is very high as the floor of the car is raised to accommodate the batteries. I am 6ft tall and need to pretty much "step up" into the driver’s seat. I am finding that this elevated driving position actually gives a much better view of the traffic ahead and reduces the amount of dazzle you get from oncoming cars. It doesn’t feel very sporty though.
I'm still enjoying the experience! My Wife loves to drive the iOn and every morning I have the freedom chose to take her Golf or the iOn. Unless I know I have got lots of meetings I always reach for the keys to the Peugeot.
Anyway, some more of my experiences and observations:
Steaming up can be an issue. As previously mentioned, the aircon and heater sap power from the main battery so I tend to minimise their use. This can lead to problems with steaming up - especially if it's raining outside and you get damp clothes. My solution is to use RainX Antifog on the inside of the windows. I have never used this on my other cars, but it has really worked a treat here. I still get moisture on the inside of the glass, but it tends to be a thicker film rather than the tiny droplets that scatter the light.
With the strange weather this week, I have discovered that the car gets really blown around by the wind! It's a fairly tall car and quite narrow. You really have to be concentrating when you get sudden strong sidewinds or you will end up in the wrong lane.
The rear windows are heavily tinted as standard. As first I didn't like this as I felt my view of the cars behind was impaired at night. However, I have got used to it and now think it is brilliant! I no longer get dazzled by numpties with those powerful aftermarket HIDs that people are fitting on their old bangers. Whichever car I get next, I'm tempted to get the rear windows tinted.
The driving position is very high as the floor of the car is raised to accommodate the batteries. I am 6ft tall and need to pretty much "step up" into the driver’s seat. I am finding that this elevated driving position actually gives a much better view of the traffic ahead and reduces the amount of dazzle you get from oncoming cars. It doesn’t feel very sporty though.
I'm still enjoying the experience! My Wife loves to drive the iOn and every morning I have the freedom chose to take her Golf or the iOn. Unless I know I have got lots of meetings I always reach for the keys to the Peugeot.
Russ Bost said:
" However, it probably is the near term future of the mass market "family car" ;-)"
Just a minor problem with this as with all attempts at electric cars as we now know them, there is not enough lithium in the world to provide suitable batteries for more than around 1/3 of the cars currently on the planet, we reach "peak lithium" rather too rapidly. For electric cars to work over a long distance they need to be powered as they drive, I believe they have trialled a system with massive electric coils generating a field which will charge the car as it passes over it.
Even if this works, & it's a long way from being rolled out as yet, it would mean digging up every road in the country to make it work & you still need to generate the electricity from somewhere, which, as everyone is (stupidly & ignorantly) running scared of atomic power which is the only short term solution that might just buy us the time we need to develop further technologies, that could be kinda tricky.
Very lightweight cars, smaller batteries & onboard diesel generators just might get you somewhere in terms of decent range, but if we insist on these cars being as sophisticated as current vehicles with power hungry heating & aircon systems & being full of nice comfy trim, airbags & 5 star safety rated steel structures, to say nothing of carrying a couple of passengers then it just ain't gonna happen.
For the foreseeable future electric will remain as short distance commute & city car transport only.
Sorry i really meant that range extended electric PHEV's are the near term future.Just a minor problem with this as with all attempts at electric cars as we now know them, there is not enough lithium in the world to provide suitable batteries for more than around 1/3 of the cars currently on the planet, we reach "peak lithium" rather too rapidly. For electric cars to work over a long distance they need to be powered as they drive, I believe they have trialled a system with massive electric coils generating a field which will charge the car as it passes over it.
Even if this works, & it's a long way from being rolled out as yet, it would mean digging up every road in the country to make it work & you still need to generate the electricity from somewhere, which, as everyone is (stupidly & ignorantly) running scared of atomic power which is the only short term solution that might just buy us the time we need to develop further technologies, that could be kinda tricky.
Very lightweight cars, smaller batteries & onboard diesel generators just might get you somewhere in terms of decent range, but if we insist on these cars being as sophisticated as current vehicles with power hungry heating & aircon systems & being full of nice comfy trim, airbags & 5 star safety rated steel structures, to say nothing of carrying a couple of passengers then it just ain't gonna happen.
For the foreseeable future electric will remain as short distance commute & city car transport only.
A smallish HV battery (~15kwhrs) giving up to 40miles fully electric miles that are charged by plugging into the grid
A smallish IC engine that adds extra range as required for longer journeys, the cruical point being that the IC engine must be able to directly drive the wheels at higher speed / load to increase the cycle round trip efficiency (burning gasoline to charge the onboard battery is silly)
The current downsides are 1) they are heavy (2sets of powertrain parts!) 2) they are costly (2sets of powertrain parts and 2 systems to develop and integrate). But, give then 3 years and i suspect they will become the norm, giving the best of both worlds (ultra efficient zero tailpipe emissions town and commuting driving, but "proper" car range capability for those weekend trips or unforseeen trips / circumstances
Pure EV's are never going to be viable currently due to the poor energy storage of existing battery systems.
Max_Torque said:
Sorry i really meant that range extended electric PHEV's are the near term future.
A smallish HV battery (~15kwhrs) giving up to 40miles fully electric miles that are charged by plugging into the grid
A smallish IC engine that adds extra range as required for longer journeys, the cruical point being that the IC engine must be able to directly drive the wheels at higher speed / load to increase the cycle round trip efficiency (burning gasoline to charge the onboard battery is silly)
The current downsides are 1) they are heavy (2sets of powertrain parts!) 2) they are costly (2sets of powertrain parts and 2 systems to develop and integrate).
They should not be heavy at all, there should be only one drivetrain.A smallish HV battery (~15kwhrs) giving up to 40miles fully electric miles that are charged by plugging into the grid
A smallish IC engine that adds extra range as required for longer journeys, the cruical point being that the IC engine must be able to directly drive the wheels at higher speed / load to increase the cycle round trip efficiency (burning gasoline to charge the onboard battery is silly)
The current downsides are 1) they are heavy (2sets of powertrain parts!) 2) they are costly (2sets of powertrain parts and 2 systems to develop and integrate).
The petrol engine drives a generator on the flywheel, which is metered into the batteries.
the battery is then metered into the drive motors, one per axle or wheel.
Simples. One engine+gen, two black boxes, one set of drive motors and a few wires.
No gearbox, diff, driveshafts, alternator etc required.
Freelitres>>
don't know if you have already answered this, but what's the handling like? obviously the batteries are at the bottom which i thought may help, yet it's a fairly heavy car for the size and you are also quite high up.
I can't think of an alternative non EV car with a set-up like this, so how does it feel around twisty corners fast?
don't know if you have already answered this, but what's the handling like? obviously the batteries are at the bottom which i thought may help, yet it's a fairly heavy car for the size and you are also quite high up.
I can't think of an alternative non EV car with a set-up like this, so how does it feel around twisty corners fast?
I haven't driven many small cars to compare the handling to, so I can't give you a definitive review as they might all be like this! I will just describe how it feels to me.
First of all, the suspension feels very stiff. I think they have done this to minimise body roll as with the narrow wheelbase, the thing might topple over on softer springs! You do tend to feel the bumps in this car and you can see the projection of the headlights jumping up and down the road if it has a rough or uneven surface. Could this be down to the tiny wheels?
With the stiff suspension and low centre of gravity, it sounds like a winning combination, right?
Well... It's not the kind of car that you would chuck around a corner with confidence. It feels like it wouldn't take much of a corner to cause the front tyres to lose traction - they could do with being a bit wider. Plus, (it might just be me, but) the high seating position also puts me off from flinging it about.
The thing is, it's not a car that you want to thrash around. It's a very quiet, relaxing drive (except for the bumps!) and it feels at home just cruising along with the usual commuting traffic speed. In my old V6, I was always looking for an opportunity to overtake and to get past the 50 mph dawdlers, but in this, i'm happy to just cruise.
First of all, the suspension feels very stiff. I think they have done this to minimise body roll as with the narrow wheelbase, the thing might topple over on softer springs! You do tend to feel the bumps in this car and you can see the projection of the headlights jumping up and down the road if it has a rough or uneven surface. Could this be down to the tiny wheels?
With the stiff suspension and low centre of gravity, it sounds like a winning combination, right?
Well... It's not the kind of car that you would chuck around a corner with confidence. It feels like it wouldn't take much of a corner to cause the front tyres to lose traction - they could do with being a bit wider. Plus, (it might just be me, but) the high seating position also puts me off from flinging it about.
The thing is, it's not a car that you want to thrash around. It's a very quiet, relaxing drive (except for the bumps!) and it feels at home just cruising along with the usual commuting traffic speed. In my old V6, I was always looking for an opportunity to overtake and to get past the 50 mph dawdlers, but in this, i'm happy to just cruise.
Globs said:
Max_Torque said:
Sorry i really meant that range extended electric PHEV's are the near term future.
A smallish HV battery (~15kwhrs) giving up to 40miles fully electric miles that are charged by plugging into the grid
A smallish IC engine that adds extra range as required for longer journeys, the cruical point being that the IC engine must be able to directly drive the wheels at higher speed / load to increase the cycle round trip efficiency (burning gasoline to charge the onboard battery is silly)
The current downsides are 1) they are heavy (2sets of powertrain parts!) 2) they are costly (2sets of powertrain parts and 2 systems to develop and integrate).
They should not be heavy at all, there should be only one drivetrain.A smallish HV battery (~15kwhrs) giving up to 40miles fully electric miles that are charged by plugging into the grid
A smallish IC engine that adds extra range as required for longer journeys, the cruical point being that the IC engine must be able to directly drive the wheels at higher speed / load to increase the cycle round trip efficiency (burning gasoline to charge the onboard battery is silly)
The current downsides are 1) they are heavy (2sets of powertrain parts!) 2) they are costly (2sets of powertrain parts and 2 systems to develop and integrate).
The petrol engine drives a generator on the flywheel, which is metered into the batteries.
the battery is then metered into the drive motors, one per axle or wheel.
Simples. One engine+gen, two black boxes, one set of drive motors and a few wires.
No gearbox, diff, driveshafts, alternator etc required.
BTW, all this electric stuff looks "simples" in the same way that an IC engine is "simples", after all, they are just a few pistons pushing a crank around, i mean, how hard can that be to get working........ A "practical" hybrid vehicle is a VERY complicated system. (anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea of the difference between a "practical" vehicle and a "theoretical" one)
Quick update;
1) The iOn went in for some warranty/recall work to activate the Peugeot Assist button, SOS button and Blutooth connectivity. Peugeot Assist is a button that calls the recovery team to get you if you break down or run out of juice. The SOS button calls 999 (automatically if the airbags go off). The Blutooth means you can use your mobile hands free, etc. I presume this is a common feature of new cars now, but it is the first time I have had it in a car. Any useful tips would be appreciated!
2) I got the guy to show me how to turn traction control off - only for when I’m stuck in snow you understand
1) The iOn went in for some warranty/recall work to activate the Peugeot Assist button, SOS button and Blutooth connectivity. Peugeot Assist is a button that calls the recovery team to get you if you break down or run out of juice. The SOS button calls 999 (automatically if the airbags go off). The Blutooth means you can use your mobile hands free, etc. I presume this is a common feature of new cars now, but it is the first time I have had it in a car. Any useful tips would be appreciated!
2) I got the guy to show me how to turn traction control off - only for when I’m stuck in snow you understand
Max_Torque said:
No, this is a series hybrid and has a terrible round trip efficiency. You absolutely MUST be able to couple the IC engine to the wheels directly
BTW, all this electric stuff looks "simples" in the same way that an IC engine is "simples", after all, they are just a few pistons pushing a crank around, i mean, how hard can that be to get working........ A "practical" hybrid vehicle is a VERY complicated system. (anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea of the difference between a "practical" vehicle and a "theoretical" one)
Ah yes, efficiency. Yes, having a generator, control system and motors instead of a prop-shaft and diff will take about 30% of the power away. I liked the Honda Insite Mk1 for their approach, mainly mechanical but with a bit of battery regeneration and assist.BTW, all this electric stuff looks "simples" in the same way that an IC engine is "simples", after all, they are just a few pistons pushing a crank around, i mean, how hard can that be to get working........ A "practical" hybrid vehicle is a VERY complicated system. (anyone who tells you otherwise has no idea of the difference between a "practical" vehicle and a "theoretical" one)
hadenough! said:
Not convinced this is the best idea in the world, what if its not an emergancy? Also what does it tell the operator?
No too sure to be honest. I imagine it just dials up and sends a status report on airbags? If you are unconscious I’m not sure what will happen next. Also, the engineer explained that you can't hang up to end the call. He also said that the 999 operator is not allowed to hang up. It could be a long phone call then.
Globs said:
Simples. One engine+gen, two black boxes, one set of drive motors and a few wires.
No gearbox, diff, driveshafts, alternator etc required.
wow, you should make one of those if it is that easier. I mean, Toyota spend ~£2B on the prius and GM spent a piffling ~£3.5B on the Volt. What a bunch of idiots !No gearbox, diff, driveshafts, alternator etc required.
(PS, anyone who says "it's electric so it doesn't need a gearbox or driveshafts" might want to reconsider exactly how silly that statement is.......... )
(give you a clue, my not very special diesel estate car can easily make >5000Nm of torque at the wheels)
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