SEAT Ibiza - rwd turbo
Discussion
Hi,
Great project, I wish I had the time, money and knowledge to build something like this. Great dedication and attention to detail, well done.
In layman terms what are the benefits of having a dry sump? I guess, you still have a sump somewhere and the oil. Is pumped up to the engine and circulated when running like normal right? So other than saving a bit of space are there any other major benefits? - Just interested.
Thanks,
HHP.
Great project, I wish I had the time, money and knowledge to build something like this. Great dedication and attention to detail, well done.
In layman terms what are the benefits of having a dry sump? I guess, you still have a sump somewhere and the oil. Is pumped up to the engine and circulated when running like normal right? So other than saving a bit of space are there any other major benefits? - Just interested.
Thanks,
HHP.
Dry sump systems have 4 primary benefits:
1) They maintain a more consistent and reliable oil pressure feed under high g maneuvers. In a conventional sump, the oil is much freer to "slosh" around, especially due to the proximity of the spinning bottom end components. A dry sump tank, which is deliberately "tall and thin" rather than "wide and shallow" will keep the pressure pump well fed with oil at all times
2) The help to reduce oil consumption and can increase engine power. As there isn't a large volume of oil in the actual sump, windage (oil sloshing into the spinning crank etc) losses are reduced. Using multiple scavange pumps means oil can be drained from specific locations (like the cylinder head, or turbo etc) menaing less chance of large volumes of oil getting "hung up" in the corners of the engine. Less windage also means less oil vapour/mist, and lower losses of lubrication oil via "carryover" in the blowby gas extraction. A dry sump system can also be used to reduce the crank case pressure below atmospheric, again reducing parastic windage losses.
3) Generally, the lower profile dry sump means the installed height of the powertrain can be reduced. This lowers the vehicles CofG to the benefit of maximum lateral / longitudinal grip.
4) Removing the oil from the main crankcase results in much improved oil cooling, and more efficient separation of the blowby gases from the oil.
A dry sump system also has several deficits. They tend to be heavier than a conventional system, and the drive system (normally a toothed belt) can be vulnerable to damage
1) They maintain a more consistent and reliable oil pressure feed under high g maneuvers. In a conventional sump, the oil is much freer to "slosh" around, especially due to the proximity of the spinning bottom end components. A dry sump tank, which is deliberately "tall and thin" rather than "wide and shallow" will keep the pressure pump well fed with oil at all times
2) The help to reduce oil consumption and can increase engine power. As there isn't a large volume of oil in the actual sump, windage (oil sloshing into the spinning crank etc) losses are reduced. Using multiple scavange pumps means oil can be drained from specific locations (like the cylinder head, or turbo etc) menaing less chance of large volumes of oil getting "hung up" in the corners of the engine. Less windage also means less oil vapour/mist, and lower losses of lubrication oil via "carryover" in the blowby gas extraction. A dry sump system can also be used to reduce the crank case pressure below atmospheric, again reducing parastic windage losses.
3) Generally, the lower profile dry sump means the installed height of the powertrain can be reduced. This lowers the vehicles CofG to the benefit of maximum lateral / longitudinal grip.
4) Removing the oil from the main crankcase results in much improved oil cooling, and more efficient separation of the blowby gases from the oil.
A dry sump system also has several deficits. They tend to be heavier than a conventional system, and the drive system (normally a toothed belt) can be vulnerable to damage
Great explanation thank you. Sounds like a great system, when working well.
Will you use the car competitively once finished? With all the good engineering, technology and more importantly money that's gone into it, it would seem a shame not to.
Either way I hope you find plenty of time to enjoy it.
HHP
Will you use the car competitively once finished? With all the good engineering, technology and more importantly money that's gone into it, it would seem a shame not to.
Either way I hope you find plenty of time to enjoy it.
HHP
No, not all. I was obliquely alluding to the timescale of this project. I remember Max tearing around in the Ibiza like it was stolen (since it was, once!) back before the turn of the last century.
Max's handiwork has produced spectacular results, but so did evolution and in a comparable time-scale! I applaud Max for his dogged persistence with the project as well as the obviously fastidious workmanship.
Max's handiwork has produced spectacular results, but so did evolution and in a comparable time-scale! I applaud Max for his dogged persistence with the project as well as the obviously fastidious workmanship.
AER said:
No, not all. I was obliquely alluding to the timescale of this project. I remember Max tearing around in the Ibiza like it was stolen (since it was, once!) back before the turn of the last century.
Max's handiwork has produced spectacular results, but so did evolution and in a comparable time-scale! I applaud Max for his dogged persistence with the project as well as the obviously fastidious workmanship.
Thanks for explaining that - I'm off to google himMax's handiwork has produced spectacular results, but so did evolution and in a comparable time-scale! I applaud Max for his dogged persistence with the project as well as the obviously fastidious workmanship.
Some people are sensitised to mention of small aquatic rodents
Part 23a - Cooling systems:
With the engine pushed back behind the front axle for reasons of polar moment and static mass distribution, that left lots of space for the cooling pack to be optimised (and the steering rack to sit across the car in the optimum location for zero bump steer too, v. unusual in a front engined car).
A lightweight tubular frame carries the intercooler and main cooling radiator, and provides location for the plastic ducts and guide partitions to help channel the air efficiently into the rads.
Both IC and main rad are custom cores with ally end caps. Particular attention was paid to the flow geometry of the IC end caps (none of that nasty square tank/stubby pipe sticking out rubbish):
Wiggins couplings are used for the IC pipework connections:
Fan pack for main rad sits in carbon molded support to ensure high fan efficiency (important for a rally car that spends a lot of time going sideways (poor dynamic ramming) at a relatively low vehicle speed:
Rad & IC in place:
Kevlar underguard also forms lower air channel for main radiator inlet:
I decided to keep the original "crash bar" across the front (with some lightening) as rally cars tend to seek out rather solid objects to hit.......
The original steel bonnet was cut about and used to make a plug for a mold used to make a carbon/kevlar replacement with large exit vent for the rad pack:
Trial fit of bonnet test part made out of glass fibre to check trimming and clearances:
Just about enough room to tuck the ITG carbon air box under the front offside chassis rail:
Shiny plumbing, and oil-water heat exchanger mounted in 'top hose':
With the engine pushed back behind the front axle for reasons of polar moment and static mass distribution, that left lots of space for the cooling pack to be optimised (and the steering rack to sit across the car in the optimum location for zero bump steer too, v. unusual in a front engined car).
A lightweight tubular frame carries the intercooler and main cooling radiator, and provides location for the plastic ducts and guide partitions to help channel the air efficiently into the rads.
Both IC and main rad are custom cores with ally end caps. Particular attention was paid to the flow geometry of the IC end caps (none of that nasty square tank/stubby pipe sticking out rubbish):
Wiggins couplings are used for the IC pipework connections:
Fan pack for main rad sits in carbon molded support to ensure high fan efficiency (important for a rally car that spends a lot of time going sideways (poor dynamic ramming) at a relatively low vehicle speed:
Rad & IC in place:
Kevlar underguard also forms lower air channel for main radiator inlet:
I decided to keep the original "crash bar" across the front (with some lightening) as rally cars tend to seek out rather solid objects to hit.......
The original steel bonnet was cut about and used to make a plug for a mold used to make a carbon/kevlar replacement with large exit vent for the rad pack:
Trial fit of bonnet test part made out of glass fibre to check trimming and clearances:
Just about enough room to tuck the ITG carbon air box under the front offside chassis rail:
Shiny plumbing, and oil-water heat exchanger mounted in 'top hose':
king cool. Would love to build something like this in the future, nicely done OP. 
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