A V8 at last - my BMW 645Ci

[McSam]

drewos said:

Hi McSam, I have drunk bid on this and won! I am genuinely shocked by that MPG you've achieved as I will be going to London a few times a year from the wirral (via A41/M54) so hope I can get near your figure. I've been really enjoying the thread and can't wait to pick the car up next week.

Nice one! You'll definitely enjoy it on that route. Tell us more? Couldn't find that car with a quick glance through the usual places.

MJ85 said:

Every BMW I've encountered is capable of good to excellent MPG if driven correctly. It does make ownership less painful. I'm glad it is going well.

Yep, me too - my E46 always impressed me, but if it's anywhere near accurate then this is nothing short of remarkable.

As for pain of ownership and "going well", I had the car in at Autotech Warwick - who came quite well recommended - for a once-over. It has a significant oil leak from the cam cover gaskets, which is an enormous pain in my arse. If I'd insisted on getting the car on ramps before I bought it, I could never have missed this, and I feel it's too involved a job for me to do myself. I also found my gearbox drain plug looking this:



Clearly never seen a tool in its life. So the invoice I have for a gearbox oil change done as part of the deal - and written as a condition in the invoice - isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Oh, and I found a snapped rear spring on a car that had allegedly been MOTed three weeks prior. Nothing pisses me off more than a dishonest seller.. Shockingly enough, receipts for the service he claimed it had had when he took it into stock haven't been sent through either, so I'll need to change the engine oil and filter while I'm at it.

At least when this is all done, I'll know for a certainty that the work has been done properly and with the correct fluids. I've already done all the other components of a major service anyway..

[McSam]

Thanks!

If done correctly, you're right - but the very unconvincing invoice I have lists only the oil and labour, no parts. I asked whether the sump had been changed and was told not. It certainly doesn't look new, showing similar levels of oil staining from the cam cover leak as parts around it. The invoice also lists ten litres of oil, which when ZF's kit only provides seven reads like a bit of a blind guess.

The proof will come when it's drained, I guess, but several aspects of the way the gearbox behaves suggest aged oil. The dealer initially seemed surprisingly receptive when I called to challenge him on this, he asked me for photos, promised to quiz the garage he used to find what they'd done, and agreed to recover the £380 he paid and pass it on to me if he found foul play. He went from that to never taking my calls to "the number you have dialled is not in service" in very short order. I don't think I'm being paranoid here..

[McSam]

That sounds perfect, drewos! Look forward to seeing more of it. There seem to be especially few V8 E63s for sale at the minute, perhaps we're buying them all

philmots said:

I'd put it down to experience..

I've had similar with cars years ago, now when sellers say it'll have this and that done before etc, I just tell them to leave it and I'll have another few hundred off the bill. At least then I know what fluids are in it and what brand filters etc.

Well, yes, that's my preference as well but some sellers really do make it difficult for you. This particular car was bought very much heart over head, I still don't regret it (and haven't see another one for sale that I'd rather have), but I am quite hacked off that it wasn't the deal it was meant to be. I'll see what an enquiry to Trading Standards yields, you never know.

I received a quote from Autotech for £850 to do both cam cover gaskets and their gearbox service, which does include replacing the sump and filter. £450 of that is parts, so a little investigation is required to find a good way to source an OEM cam cover gasket kit for less than the £196 quoted. Gearbox sump kit, oil and hardware seems about right at £250.

Sparkzz said:

Wonderful, the dark blue sets it off perfectly.

Thank you

quavey said:

You have to love an E63, I certainly love my 650i. Eagle eyes might remember it from a Carpool last year. I'll second the unreal fuel economy if driven with care and at sensible speeds. On our euro trip in the 650i we managed more than 32mpg overall.

Your Carpool thread was a very significant factor in setting me off looking at these cars, so thank you very much! You have the ideal thing, a pre-06 650i, and it's a lovely example.

[McSam]

Heh, yes, you've just managed half the mileage of mine! It's nice to see one with Style 218s on it, they seem fairly rare but a black 650i I looked at had them and I've loved them ever since. I think they're the ideal design for the E63.. It's just a shame they're 19s and not easy to find. If anyone has a set going spare, let me know!

I know a lot of people think ellipsoids are the "correct" wheels for these cars, and they do have a certain appeal but I'm not totally convinced. I think I prefer my car on the Style 118 winters.

[McSam]

They're not completely ridiculous to buy new, I've located OEM fronts and rears on the web for £1100 a set. Too much to be spending, really, but I was surprised how relatively reasonable they are.

I think my best bet would be to keep an eye out for cars being broken. They do seem to get crashed fairly regularly

I don't have any experience of that genuineautoparts.com site, but they also have the cylinder gasket sets for £55 per bank which is rather good. Might give them a go.

[McSam]

helix402 said:

Good to see you're enjoying the new car. Try Leebman24 for cheaper genuine parts. Pattern cam cover gaskets are cheaper but don't last well. Is the gearbox quote for BMW parts or a ZF kit? Does it include the mechatronic sleeve?

Thanks! The parts linked above are (purportedly) genuine, I've no interest in buying pattern stuff. Thanks for that website though, it seems very complete and their part number search actually works correctly. They are not as competitive as the one I found, but I might try ordering a few minor bits from each to see whose service is better and check the parts actually are the real deal.

The gearbox quote was for one of the ZF sump and hardware kits and it does include the mechatronic sleeve, but it turns out they were planning to use Dexron 6 fluid, so it looks like I need to find somewhere else..

jayemm89 said:

My 645Ci was definitely more economical than my E46 M3!!

That doesn't surprise me in the slightest! M3s do seem to have prodigious appetites. It's just a shame the 4.4 is not quite as powerful

[McSam]

If you've ever wondered how to check the screenwash level in your E63, wonder no more... Simply drop the bumper to view the tank



I finally had some time in the daylight to fit my new headlamp ballast. I didn't really fancy removing the bumper entirely like last time, as I only needed one lamp out, so I tried it only releasing one side. It worked quite well, tight squeeze to get the lamp out, but it was possible by doing only the wheelarch fixings on the side I was removing, then all of the top bolts under the bonnet and the ones behind each foglamp and the little grilles. I now have two fully working headlamps again, which means I can finally try out my adaptive function - when one of the lamps is out, it just drives the remaining one over to try and cover the beam of both, so it hasn't been working up to now.

Since I had the wheel locked over to get access, it would have been rude not to take a photo of the brilliantly aggressive tread pattern on my Dunlop Wintersport 5s.



I'd been planning to spend the rest of today fiddling with little jobs and doing some diagnostic work, but it was a really nice day and my housemate suggested going for a blat down some good local B-roads. Since my car should be totally unsuited to chasing his R53 Cooper S, I agreed but you know what, it was pretty good! Yes it feels big, yes it's too soft and yes the winters give a certain vagueness to the feeling at the limit, but it was still really good fun - quick and composed, but most importantly it felt exciting. I'd never driven it hard for an extended period before, but when you keep the revs right up all the time, it sounds great, the noise urging you on and the delivery always feeling properly muscular. It's really capable and seems to feel happier the faster you drive it, soaking things up better and feeling less heavy. I was able to cover ground more quickly than the (similarly winter-shod) Mini, and I wasn't having to work anything like so hard at it!

Obviously even in manual with the sport mode on for heavier steering, it isn't terribly involving but it feels happy being driven in that way, and again it performs its signature trick of making long stretches of road simply disappear. I'm impressed.

[McSam]

I'm really starting to fall for this thing.

[McSam]

Funk said:

Git.

Glad you're enjoying it though!

It does seem to attract that response from people who see it cheers.

Thanks again, GF. Occasionally I wonder "should I have waited for the perfect 650i", but then I remember you aren't selling, I'd have paid near twice as much and there aren't any in this colour!

Hi Michael! Your car sounds lovely, definitely deserving of its own thread. Mine is very much a rescue case in comparison, though I've always liked improving cars as I go along. The wheels are a bit of a dilemma for me at the moment.. I really am in love with the Style 218 19"s from the 650i, and I have seen some for sale, but after I got my ellipsoids off and felt how much nicer the car drove I swore it'd never have 19s again. A voice in the back of my head tells me it could just be the Bridgestones that were the problem, and with a decent tyre on the 19s might be fine.. the sensible side can silence it again by reminding it that the 275-section rear is unnecessary, crap in the wet and dire for fuel economy. But I still keep going around the circle..

If I could find an 18" wheel that I really liked, or indeed an 18" version of the Style 218, I'd be a happy man. Until then, style continues to argue with good sense!

[McSam]

Funk said:

I should not have watched those 645Ci with fruity exhaust videos.

DAMMIT. It might take a while but I think this is my next car. I have some reading to do.

Heh, that was a bit of an influence on me too. The car does sound good from inside, and at very high revs it actually sounds pretty racy, there's a real hard edge to it which is lovely. It is, however, too quiet at full load. There are options aplenty, with several resonators you could delete and a variety of X-pipe systems out there. This captures the standard exterior sound quite accurately and shows what can be done:

https://youtu.be/lPpWE2o4BFc

Really it wants a switchable system, perhaps tied to the sport button. The volume at part load and cruising speeds is spot on and I wouldn't want to knacker that.

Granfondo, those wheels are an interesting choice, a more modern design but I think they suit it reasonably well.. I always resist going away from period OEM stuff but those are a possibility. Might mock those up onto one of my side profile shots. Your car is looking lovely ad ever!

[McSam]

Funk said:

I like 'em a bit more growly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpRjEWu8wjs (ignore the M6 badge wker)

https://youtu.be/bpISXiy2Z1s?t=40 (and again)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dac1QXRbj0w

Damn, you're an expensive guy to talk to, all of those sound rather lovely. Not sure which my favourite is yet. I think one that cracks on a full-throttle upshift is mandatory, because otherwise you can hear the slur as the torque converter slips down between gears. Again, I stress some switchable function is needed

Thank you, unsprung

[McSam]

It's a lot easier when a side-exit exhaust is acceptable! The same character is there in the 645Ci and 650i, just a lot more muted.

On a vaguely related note, I've been out with the Autosol today. My tailpipe finishers were looking decidedly past their best..



But a bit of elbow grease has brought them back nicely:







Oh, almost forgot, I was messing about with diagnostics earlier and I was curious to see how the engine load varies between idling in neutral and D. So here you go, from a warm idle..

Neutral:



Immediately after selecting D:



Five seconds on the brakes after selecting D:



This is quite interesting. The bits we're concerned with are the air mass flow and the "% DK", which stands for Drosselklappe - throttle. There is some fluctuation in the MAF numbers but the ones shown above aren't far off the average.

So in neutral, we have 2% throttle and 14kg/hr, which equates to around 1.3 litres of fuel per hour (stoichiometric ratio is 15:1 and a litre weighs 0.71kg). As soon as you select D, the throttle opens to 3% and we're at 23kg/hr (2.2l/hr) ready to pull away. But if you hold the brakes, over the next five seconds the load drops away smoothly until it settles at around 2.3% throttle and 16kg/hr (1.5l/hr).

So there is at least some aspect of disengaging the torque converter clutches when stationary at idle, it's just very hard to perceive because it's a smooth ramp-out rather than a step change. Now I've seen this behaviour, it explains why there can be some hesitation pulling away when you've been stationary for a few seconds - the clutches need time to re-engage. In any case, it means you're only using around 15% more fuel to let it idle in D when stationary for long periods. Not too bad, nor is the idle consumption as a whole.

In case you were wondering - and still awake - the highest I saw out on my test run was 860kg/hr at peak power. So you'd get a fuel range of 52 minutes if running flat out!

Edited by McSam on Saturday 27th February 18:18

[McSam]

After a rather sizeable bill from Autotech of Warwick, I now have a much happier N62. Cam cover gaskets were diagnosed as the cause of the oil leaks, both banks needed doing, and I asked them to do the upper timing case gaskets while they were in there - you'd need to do nearly as much work again if they later failed. I took a bit of a punt on what could be causing the coolant leak - the supply pipe running through the middle of the V is known for failing and, again, an enormous amount of work to get to on its own but not much more effort if you already have the intake manifold and cam covers off, so I asked them to do this.

Now I've been running the car for two weeks and have had absolutely no coolant consumption, no dodgy starts or misfiring, no oil leaks that I can see and a generally far more pleasant experience! I'll pop it back on the ramps this week to double-check for any more oil leaks, but all seems well so far.

This is good, because it's about time to spend money in another direction, summer tyres. I like the car so much on its 18" Style 118s that I'm going to use them for summer too, so I'm thinking of buying a set of Goodyear's new F1 Asymmetric 3s for it.

This means that the 19" Style 121s that the car came with are redundant, so they're now up for sale. Drop me a PM if you'd be interested, and while I can't advertise them here per se, if you were to search your favourite online auction site for a 'set of genuine BMW Style 121 19" alloy wheels & Bridgestone tyres', you'd probably find them...

[McSam]

That seems a bit excessive! I made the decision to keep long term and cherish the car before getting this work done, not that I had a lot of choice as I wouldn't have been comfortable selling it on with the issues, but it certainly isn't in that league. Breakdown as follows, all inc VAT:

• Cam cover & upper timing case gaskets replace, both banks: £629.78 (parts £200.78, labour £429)
• Intake manifold gasket replace, both banks: £58.22 (parts only, found to be degraded during above)
• Vacuum hose replace: £44.95 (parts only, found to be degraded during above)
• Oil flush, refill and filter replace: £117.60 (fluids and parts only)
• Coolant vent pipe replace: £211.70 (£148.50 labour, £63.20 parts and coolant)
• Air con regas: £36.00 (discharged to move a pipe for access, found to be near empty so recharged)

Total: £1098.26

The first of those includes a new oil pressure switch and various fixings that shouldn't be used again. The cam cover gasket kits were £78/bank and the timing case gaskets £6.68/bank.

What symptoms does your car have? I'd expect that going in with a mandate of "investigate and fix all you find" could easily generate scary estimates like you've said, but when you can find specific faults.. they're really not too bad to work on. Unless you needed the heads off, there isn't much you couldn't get done in the labour I've paid for above.

[McSam]

parabolica said:

There is an oil leak somewhere in the engine; to begin with symptoms was blue smoke upon heavy acceleration when the engine is hot/been sitting idle for a few minutes (I,e, at lights). Now it seems to be a fairly constant blue smoke during normal acceleration. My first thought was Vlave Stem Oil Seals as they're a known problem, but it could be any seal really! Will see what the next week holds; I'm slightly more hopeful now hearing your breakdown of the costs!

Ah, I'd forgotten about the valve stem seal issue. That one really can run up towards the numbers you mentioned, just due to the sheer time involved in replacing all 32 stem seals.. it's amazingly labour-intensive. The smoke from a hot idle can be due to the rubber diaphragms on the CCV (crank case vent) valves failing. Admittedly I've never heard of this causing smoke under constant load, but it could be worth a look anyway - the below is a pretty nice guide on how to check them. So long as you're gentle, no mechanical skills required!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBy0tRn2xLw

Funk said:

I'm slightly more anxious hearing the breakdown of costs...!

Still got my eye on one of these down the line although I've also added the 650i to the list. Sam, it seems you're pretty handy with the spanners whereas I'd have to pay a man to do everything mine needed... Looks like I'll need a float handy at all times if I do take the plunge.

Heh, well this is the biggest bill I plan on paying, but at five months and around 4,000 miles it's too early to say whether it's representative of ownership yet. If you can get yourself a 650i I definitely would, I think they'll hold their value rather better, they're more efficient as well as being more powerful, and there is a nice fuzzy feeling to the fastest non-M car bar none! I wouldn't compromise on spec to get the later engine, though, hence my decision with this one.

The cam cover gaskets were just past the limit of what I'm prepared to do. I looked at the rather good DIYs that have been posted, and it scored a 9 on the ballache/potential downtime/risk of finding or causing other broken parts scale - 8 is my ceiling on a car I'm using every day I think I made the right decision, as a few other bits were spotted and replaced far more efficiently than I could have done. It's also very possible to damage the eccentric shaft sensors while removing the cam covers, which are likely caked on firmly after 120,000 miles, another prospect I didn't relish. Probably says a lot that the owner of Autotech did this job himself - think he's been working on BMWs over 20 years now.

If I had one piece of advice for prospective buyers (other than obviously researching all the common faults to death because they really are common), it would be to get the car on a ramp and take the undercovers off for a proper look before you buy. Mine looked absolutely fine viewed on the ground, but was hiding a huge and clearly long-term oil leak that you'd never have missed with a proper inspection.

[McSam]

Funk said:

Your posts are very helpful and I may well pick your brains further down the line when it's on the cards, appreciate you've accrued a lot of knowledge!

I'm glad it's of use! I found there were DIYs around for most jobs on N62 and to a certain extent E63 (though most comes from X5s, weirdly), but ownership experience doesn't seem to get published that often so I thought I should share mine. You're more than welcome to get in touch (as is anyone else reading), though much of what I know came from the very knowledgeable and equally helpful gf15.

Speed addicted - your car looks lovely! Interesting to hear your experience with the cam covers, becoming more glad I didn't do that one myself. I hope your water leak turns out to be something simple, the expansion tanks can leak on the underside and I think the fan switches can too, rather that than having it in pieces to get to the supply pipe.

This is the first car I've had where I don't necessarily begrudge it generating bills.. it's already such good value that it struggles to go far wrong.

Granfondo, you're selling up?! It'll be easy enough to find in the listings, sort by mileage ascending.. rare that one comes up with so little use.

Though speaking of stuff in the classifieds, I did find this rather special thing. Yes it's cab, but it's a manual 650i, and look inside it!

http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...



I would you know, at maybe 30% of what they're asking

[McSam]

I don't think it's even blue, it's fking purple - which is exactly why I want it!

Bit weird inside a blue car, but can't argue with the guy who didn't tick the "automatic transmission" box like everyone else. I've still yet to drive a manual V8 6er, and I'm a bit scared to...

[McSam]

Big old girl she may be, but there's still fun to be had down a B-road





Nice run this afternoon, the car stood up pretty well, but seems to be throwing out a lot of brake dust on the front right corner only - it doesn't feel like the caliper's sticking but I don't like seeing an imbalance like that, will need to take a look. I also noticed that while the steering weight is much nicer in Sport, it also transmits a lot of noise from broken surfaces, to the point where pressing on over a rough road is a little unpleasant, which is a shame - felt better leaving it off on most roads.

Now that the weather's got warmer, I've noticed that the car seems to have very poor control of air vent temperature. However you fancy setting the iDrive menu or the temperature rotaries, you will always get very hot air out of the windscreen and footwell vents. You can only get cool air out of the driver's face vents if you have either windscreen or footwell open (as if there's a certain amount of hot air that must go somewhere), but the passenger's face vents seem to behave OK. This is slightly better with the air con on, but there's still a huge difference in temperature between the two centre face vents, to the point where I often run with the driver's one closed and try and turn the passenger's one far enough to reach me. Anyone else had similar issues? I presume an E60 would be the same system.

[McSam]

McSam said:

However you fancy setting the iDrive menu or the temperature rotaries

If only that wasn't the first thing I tried, Helix! I've put together a reasonable understanding of what's going on, there must be an issue with either the control from the heater matrix (putting too much hot water through when it isn't needed), or with the car's interior temperature sensors (telling it that it always needs heat even to get to minimum setting). Done a little research and in a way I'm glad it's not just my car, but it seems it's a bh to diagnose..

Nice upgrade coming for you, Parabolica! I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts after you've spent some time with the next generation well done avoiding the ubiquitous 640d too, I'd leave the badges on that one!

[McSam]

Not had time to look into the HVAC misbehaviours yet, but even since having all the oil leaks sorted out I'd found the car was occasionally starting from cold with a misfire and needing a second start to sort itself out. This didn't seem right, so I reset the knock control adaptions, figuring they would still be learnt for a leaky, poor-vacuum engine that was now properly sealed! It's taken a couple of hundred miles to get itself sorted out for every condition, but now it feels lovely.

It's also dramatically better on fuel.. remember that journey from Chester to Warwick, half on the A41 (mostly fast single-carriageway) and half on M6/M42/M40? Well this afternoon I needed to refuel just before coming back down, so I reset all the readouts to see what happened.



This seemed unrealistic to the point of bending physics, so I brimmed it again just before getting home to see just how far off it was. She took 13.66 litres, even at three clicks on the pump rather than stopping at the first one like I usually do. So that's 35.2mpg, on a run with several full-bore overtakes, motorway traffic, you name it, certainly no hypermiling done. Apart from being absolutely amazing for a huge automatic V8 barge, that also gives it a true 500-mile motorway range. A proper grand tourer, then. What a car..