Endurance Trialling a Citroen AX, & Bike Engine Swapping it

[REUBS1215]

sjabrown said:

I watched the LBS with interest. Quite fancy giving trialling a go some time. Might have to head south to watch a couple first. Good effort in the AX.

Can't recommend it enough tbh! I think the LBS did a really good job of illustrating the point but the world's your oyster with it. You can pretty much run whatever vehicle you want as long as only one of the axles is driven, it isn't diesel and it's not a 4wd vehicle that you've just disabled the second driven axle.

If want to spend ten's of thousands - there's nothing stopping you other than inevitably end up in Class 7 or 8 which makes for a really hard course, they have to do all the restarts in all the worst places and start behind everyone else in the main trial.

But we spent naff all tbh in all; from the car to entry fees, 6x new tyres to fuel, insurance to even the bacon sandwiches while on course we spent £1900... Only things not included there are the spotlights I stole off my Land Rover for the event and our toolboxes.

As for watching a couple first; I'd watched the finish at Blue Hills for years as a lot of my family lives there, but I'd never seen the rest of the course and my navigator had never even heard of the sport until he paid his memberships subs and we flipped a coin to see who's driving. Just give it a go I say!

[maxdb]

What about adding a turbo or using a 1.3 Micra engine?

Not sure if these would work but just throwing some ideas about.

[Mr Tidy]

Fantastic read, thanks for posting it OP. And good luck sorting a replacement engine.

[BricktopST205]

Wheeler dealers turned a TU engine into quite a monster with oldschool tuning. Made something like 130BHP albeit with the 1.4 8v.

I had a TU in my first car a Peugeot 306 albeit the 1.6. Was a little underpowered in that car with 90BHP but more than enough for me at the time!

Could you not source a 1.1 TU1 and fit a 16v head on it to make some sort of hybrid? Maybe a little skim to up compression and then fit it all with electronic ignition. Should get close to 100BHP that way and far better than trying to retrofit an entirely different engine.

[darkyoung1000]

REUBS1215 said:

Also name another car supermini that can carry 12 of it's own spare tyres, still have spare for 2 people and see out the rearview mirror! Haha

Think you have at least one 14” GT alloy there from the look of it? Might be handy if you need a brake upgrade (and if you want to get rid of any, please drop me a line, as I’ve been looking for spares).

A lot of 8v Saxo parts are interchangeable, 4 branch manifolds etc. depending on what route you go down. Turbos are possible but expensive! You can tickle the TU1 engine with better breathing while remaining N/A but again, the intake manifolds etc. are expensive…. My replacement block came from an ex-display car at Spoox, who tune a lot of TU stuff, but again, it’s pricey for little gain - bike engine is definitely the best bang for your buck if you can overcome the reversing issue.

The EFI is a very simple thing, but can cope with changes to displacement, again, good for keeping costs down!

Keep the updates coming!

[REUBS1215]

Thanks all for the recommendations - General consensus reads like we're along the right lines, at least in theory! Although I still haven't found any real information on their similarities...

Our thinking of an interim engine swap may not be that silly either, as we could still have the AX comp ready while having the TU9 and the K1200RS engine next to each other on the bench

Might even end up running a hybrid, keep the original block, bore out by 0.5mm and fit the forged internals off the bike, along with the DOHC, 16v, ITBs, and Multi-point EFI. It would crucially leave us with all the existing ancillaries in place and fit straight up to engine mounts and gbox etc. The tubular manifold of the saxo engine would save us time and money too.

200hp/tonne (N/A & kerb weight) seems a reasonable ambition lol

As for wheels; we've a right mix - 2x 3-spoke GT alloys, at least 1 of the 4-spoke GT alloys, at least 2x forte 1.4i steelies and 12x normal steelies in all. Still need to go through them all tbh, 5 with the car and the 2 forte steelies are fine. rest I just picked up from one shed and took to another haha

[samoht]

A fascinating story that sent me off to wikipedia. As far as I can see:

The Peugeot X engine in eg the 104 is mounted transversely and reclined at 72 degrees with an integrated gearbox underneath.
BMW adapted this for the K100 motorbike, laid down flat (90 degrees) and longitudinally oriented, with their own pre-existing bike gearbox and Bosch fuel injection. The K75 is then three quarters of a K100 engine as you say.
PSA then developed the X into the TU as in your AX, switching from chain to belt drive and conventional upright orientation and end-on gearbox. So the TU is two steps away from the K100.

Additionally the XU9 is 70mm bore, while the K100 is 67mm, the K1200RS is 70.5mm.

I'm personally sceptical that a BMW engine will have any useful similarities with the TU that would make it any easier to mount in an AX engine bay or to hook up to the Citroen gearbox than any other engine transplant, given that the way it's mounted in the bike and its gearbox are quite different.

I'm also sceptical that a disassembled BMW engine will yield a kit of bolt-on upgrade parts to power up your TU9, given the fundamental differences in bore and stroke, belt vs chain drive for the cams, etc.

I could be quite wrong, but based on a quick reading of online info I'm not sure there's reason to expect many easy wins.


FWIW I'm a fan of the CG13DE 1.3 Micra engine, 75hp, cheap, reliable and a nice even powerband. No idea how easy it is to get into an AX tho.

[BricktopST205]

trevalvole said:

The pre-facelift 106 Rallye and the 205 Rallye used 1.3 engines. Perhaps it would be possible to make your own approximation of them from various parts?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_TU_engine#TU2

Series 1 106 Rallye engines are hens teeth and expensive. The 205 Rallye engines was Europe only iirc. We got a 1.4 with lower HP.

It is the obvious and easiest way but I guess even if you could find one you would be looking at 1-2k easy for the engine.

[REUBS1215]

samoht said:

I'm personally sceptical that a BMW engine will have any useful similarities with the TU that would make it any easier to mount in an AX engine bay or to hook up to the Citroen gearbox than any other engine transplant, given that the way it's mounted in the bike and its gearbox are quite different.

I'm also sceptical that a disassembled BMW engine will yield a kit of bolt-on upgrade parts to power up your TU9, given the fundamental differences in bore and stroke, belt vs chain drive for the cams, etc.

I could be quite wrong, but based on a quick reading of online info I'm not sure there's reason to expect many easy wins.


FWIW I'm a fan of the CG13DE 1.3 Micra engine, 75hp, cheap, reliable and a nice even powerband. No idea how easy it is to get into an AX tho.

Yh I'll be honest there is a considerable amount of wishful thinking involved here...

I think of the BMW Flying brick is out we'll probably stick to one of the seemingly hundreds of varieties of TU and prince engines made by PSA / BMW.

The suggestion of a 1.1 with skimmed head and multipoint injection might be the most expendiant project!

Anything GTi or Rallye branded is silly money and rare now for little gain...

[CKY]

samoht said:

FWIW I'm a fan of the CG13DE 1.3 Micra engine, 75hp, cheap, reliable and a nice even powerband. No idea how easy it is to get into an AX tho.

I'm also a fan and have one lying on my garage floor awaiting a project to be fitted to, however from memory they're 1368cc, so over capacity limit for the up-to 1300 class.

ETA: great thread, looking forward to seeing the progress you make on your AX!

[samoht]

CKY said:

samoht said:

FWIW I'm a fan of the CG13DE 1.3 Micra engine, 75hp, cheap, reliable and a nice even powerband. No idea how easy it is to get into an AX tho.

I'm also a fan and have one lying on my garage floor awaiting a project to be fitted to, however from memory they're 1368cc, so over capacity limit for the up-to 1300 class.

ETA: great thread, looking forward to seeing the progress you make on your AX!

There are two variants.

The pre-facelift K11 Micra 1992-96 got the CG13DE of 1275cc and 75hp, so class eligible.
The facelift K11 got the CGA3DE with a bump to 1348cc and 85hp, so ineligible.

My parents bought a brand new example of the former as it came with several years' free insurance, with three teenagers they reckoned it was a case of buy the insurance, get the car for free.

I have no idea whether the fact the K11 was also fitted with a PSA TU diesel engine leads to any helpful similarities in engine mounting or gearbox interface with the CG, likely not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_CG_engine

[BricktopST205]

Daihatsu Sirion had a version called the Rally 2 which had a 1298 CC engine with 109 BHP. I think it would be hard to find anything better than that from factory. I do believe the first gen Yaris uses the same slightly detuned version of the same engine.

They were basically worth nothing but would I presume have been turned into class rally cars. They are not a looker. That is for sure!

Edited by BricktopST205 on Thursday 9th May 14:48

[samoht]

BricktopST205 said:

Daihatsu Sirion had a version called the Rally 2 which had a 1298 CC engine with 109 BHP. I think it would be hard to find anything better than that from factory. I do believe the first gen Yaris uses the same slightly detuned version of the same engine.

They were basically worth nothing but would I presume have been turned into class rally cars. They are not a looker. That is for sure!

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202403217799393 perhaps (claims 100hp)

[REUBS1215]

samoht said:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202403217... perhaps (claims 100hp)

Wow it really isn't a looker is it hahah

It's like someone designed a K11 by describing it over the phone

I'll have to doublecheck the rule book(s) to see if we're allowed to use other manufacturers / non-related engines... seem to recall some class don't allow it

[trevalvole]

REUBS1215 said:

samoht said:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202403217... perhaps (claims 100hp)

Wow it really isn't a looker is it hahah

It's like someone designed a K11 by describing it over the phone

I'll have to doublecheck the rule book(s) to see if we're allowed to use other manufacturers / non-related engines... seem to recall some class don't allow it

What kind of technical challenge would it be to get an engine from an automatic '04 Japanese car to run in a French car that was first introduced in the '80s?

[Didge3]

If you can do engines from other manufacturers I'd bee looking at a Yaris 1.3, must be plentiful its 86hp from factory and at 1298cc it fits into the class