Saab 9-5 Aero - Hybrid Turbo and 9000 Bottom End - 350 bhp
Discussion
Visited Street Racers Rolling Road Tuning in Syston, Leicestershire this morning and had a dyno session finally!
Very impressed with the set-up there, and Gordon really knows his stuff, top bloke - http://www.streetracersgd.co.uk
Car made a disappointing 315.8 bhp, but an astonishing 527.3 NM (388.7 lb ft), so it seems that the car is not holding boost higher up in the rev range. It could possibly be that the green giant injectors (465cc) are at their limit and need replacing with Deka 630cc injectors.
Some amazing machinery in the workshop, such as an 800 bhp civic, which is aiming to be the fastest FWD car over the quarter mile, with plans for 1000 bhp, and some other Japanese exotica:
Very impressed with the set-up there, and Gordon really knows his stuff, top bloke - http://www.streetracersgd.co.uk
Car made a disappointing 315.8 bhp, but an astonishing 527.3 NM (388.7 lb ft), so it seems that the car is not holding boost higher up in the rev range. It could possibly be that the green giant injectors (465cc) are at their limit and need replacing with Deka 630cc injectors.
Some amazing machinery in the workshop, such as an 800 bhp civic, which is aiming to be the fastest FWD car over the quarter mile, with plans for 1000 bhp, and some other Japanese exotica:
AntiLagGC8 said:
Well at least you know now. So if it made 315bhp what were you hoping it made?
I've had several disappointing dyno runs in my Impreza until I sorted a few things out. The last item was moving to a front mount inter-cooler & induction kit which dramatically changed the car.
465cc injectors do sound a tad on the small side although have you modified any other element of the cars fueling?
Was expecting at least 330 bhp.I've had several disappointing dyno runs in my Impreza until I sorted a few things out. The last item was moving to a front mount inter-cooler & induction kit which dramatically changed the car.
465cc injectors do sound a tad on the small side although have you modified any other element of the cars fueling?
It has a standard fuel pressure regulator and a walbro 255 lph fuel pump, going to get Deka 630s I think. Yeh not bad for a first run would be happy to get it to 370 bhp in the future.
wormus said:
I would suggest you have a boost problem there. Do you have a graph showing boost and AFR?
Boost is load related and your torque drops off massively beyond 3k rpm if it was injectors I'd imagine you'd be lucky to make the end of the run without losing a piston by it running lean.
Seems to spool quickly then loses torque quite quickly, is your turbo too small?
Something's not right.
I don't have such a graph, how would I get one? Would I need to be doing live mapping at the time?Boost is load related and your torque drops off massively beyond 3k rpm if it was injectors I'd imagine you'd be lucky to make the end of the run without losing a piston by it running lean.
Seems to spool quickly then loses torque quite quickly, is your turbo too small?
Something's not right.
Edited by wormus on Friday 6th May 18:26
wormus said:
They should be able to provide one of you ask them? I'd never have a dyno run done without AFR being monitored.
Ok thanks I'll give them a call tomorrow, hopefully they can load it up from then run but can't see how they could measure the boost without being plugged in to the ecu in some way. Btw your Monaro sounds brutal!AntiLagGC8 said:
The mapper should definitely be monitoring AFR during the mapping and hopefully could share the graphs. What did the mapper think was holding your car back?
He didn't say but will ask him, I originally though the 19t was at its limit but they can produce 370 bhp and a bit more torque according to noobtune wormus said:
Never tried the 1/4 as its not my thing but did VMAX and got to the rev limiter in 5th (6 gears) by about 2/3 mile. That's 186mph. Need to sort the gearing out before it will do 200mph in the mile. From 100mph it will leave anything standing but it's sort of pointless. But I love burbling around in it with the window down so I can listen to the V8.
That's epic, is it easy to get into do a vmax event? Heard it's quite an exclusive club. Sounds monstrous, Tony who did my engine rebuild etc is an Aussie and has a supercharged 5.7 Commodore running 580 at the flywheel, that thing is beyond belief fast, back end steps out with minimal effort.wormus said:
They are fun, almost 400hp out of the box and loads of tuning potential. Could be the best way to scratch your performance itch.?
Well my plan is to go for a 4WD next then RWD, ideally an old JDM 3 door Impreza then a Monaro/Commodore, if I can afford it! Dream real-world car is an E46 M3 CSL.AntiLagGC8 said:
Ah joining the Impreza club!
I love my old classic, so much grip and performance everywhere but most of all, I like the rawness of it and how it behaves at high boost. I found the standard version of my car and other classics a little tame but once they are over 330-350 they become a lot more fun!
Definitely, after driving my mate's old Impreza Type-R 3 door I was astonished at the grip and brutal off-the-line acceleration. What's yours like on fuel on a cruise?I love my old classic, so much grip and performance everywhere but most of all, I like the rawness of it and how it behaves at high boost. I found the standard version of my car and other classics a little tame but once they are over 330-350 they become a lot more fun!
Shadow R1 said:
Yes we need to know what the a\f is doing.
An example is this one, its a bike that had loads of parts fitted.
Blue is as ridden in, red is after the mapping.
A\f is at the bottom.
The car was mapped a couple of months back by Noobtune on his laptop, this was purely a rolling road sesh, not live mapping An example is this one, its a bike that had loads of parts fitted.
Blue is as ridden in, red is after the mapping.
A\f is at the bottom.
griffin dai said:
Powers a bit low, that's around stage 4 on a maxed out 9000 Aero (just to give you an idea) but it gives you something to work off, did they measure afr & boost? I'd get back onto them and ask, you need these plotted really so Karl can take a better look at it and make any adjustments, then go back to the same dyno and have another run (but with boost & afr) 
I remember when we dynod my old 9k we made an extra 39bhp just by swapping the forge actuator springs over from blue to red, so maybe something as simple as a weak spring in there? Might be worth trying the next size up?
The Green Giants should be plenty for 350bhp, not sure if I'd go to the 630's again, had loads of problems with mine, right pain in the arse. Injector Dynamics seem the better ones but their a few quid, I'm sure some have fitted Astra VXR ones but I don't think they'll give much more than the GG's? I'm guessing 370's possible as you have the 7cm exhaust housing?
With the 9-5 do they upgrade the fpr to 3.5bar plus add the bigger fuel pump/injectors? Always thought you needed the 3.5fpr at stage 3?
Thanks, ok I will see what the best I can achieve is with the Green Giants.I remember when we dynod my old 9k we made an extra 39bhp just by swapping the forge actuator springs over from blue to red, so maybe something as simple as a weak spring in there? Might be worth trying the next size up?
The Green Giants should be plenty for 350bhp, not sure if I'd go to the 630's again, had loads of problems with mine, right pain in the arse. Injector Dynamics seem the better ones but their a few quid, I'm sure some have fitted Astra VXR ones but I don't think they'll give much more than the GG's? I'm guessing 370's possible as you have the 7cm exhaust housing?
With the 9-5 do they upgrade the fpr to 3.5bar plus add the bigger fuel pump/injectors? Always thought you needed the 3.5fpr at stage 3?
No, Noobtune has recommended leaving the 3 bar FPR in as the green giants offer easily enough flow, and negate the need for a 3.5 FPR.
I've dropped the dyno place a message to see if they can measure AFR readings, will hopefully hear back from them soon.
I need to check the mAir values and a few other things to report back to Noobtune.
wormus said:
I would suggest you have a boost problem there. Do you have a graph showing boost and AFR?
Boost is load related and your torque drops off massively beyond 3k rpm if it was injectors I'd imagine you'd be lucky to make the end of the run without losing a piston by it running lean.
Seems to spool quickly then loses torque quite quickly, is your turbo too small?
Something's not right.
Turbo is not too small, the 19t is capable of 370 bhp - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJC5zWTR48o - It's likely a flow issue.Boost is load related and your torque drops off massively beyond 3k rpm if it was injectors I'd imagine you'd be lucky to make the end of the run without losing a piston by it running lean.
Seems to spool quickly then loses torque quite quickly, is your turbo too small?
Something's not right.
Edited by wormus on Friday 6th May 18:26
Have just tried WOT at 5000 rpm in 3rd gear and mAir (actual air) is at 1217 and mReq is at 1683 (air being requested), so there's a big gap, something's getting in the way, the engine/intake isn't producing what the ECU is demanding.
Shadow R1 said:
Very late reply! Great vid, shame you can't get it in the UK, or maybe you can? I know you can on the continent.Evoluzione said:
Not at the pump, but in 25L drums from race fuel suppliers, It's reassuringly expensive. They did attempt to introduce it at the pumps many years ago, but it failed.
Incidentally, your engine doesn't have forged pistons as stated earlier.
Yeh turns out they're Mahle pistons, over-engineered compared to b235 pistons but not forged. Shame we can't get e85 at pump but not a big enough marketIncidentally, your engine doesn't have forged pistons as stated earlier.
Edited by HybridAero on Tuesday 10th May 15:53
griffin dai said:
Powers a bit low, that's around stage 4 on a maxed out 9000 Aero (just to give you an idea) but it gives you something to work off, did they measure afr & boost? I'd get back onto them and ask, you need these plotted really so Karl can take a better look at it and make any adjustments, then go back to the same dyno and have another run (but with boost & afr)
I remember when we dynod my old 9k we made an extra 39bhp just by swapping the forge actuator springs over from blue to red, so maybe something as simple as a weak spring in there? Might be worth trying the next size up?
The Green Giants should be plenty for 350bhp, not sure if I'd go to the 630's again, had loads of problems with mine, right pain in the arse. Injector Dynamics seem the better ones but their a few quid, I'm sure some have fitted Astra VXR ones but I don't think they'll give much more than the GG's? I'm guessing 370's possible as you have the 7cm exhaust housing?
With the 9-5 do they upgrade the fpr to 3.5bar plus add the bigger fuel pump/injectors? Always thought you needed the 3.5fpr at stage 3?
I've been recommended to replace the 0.8 bar / 11.7 Psi actuator spring with a chopped 1.0 bar / 14.7 Psi spring, the chopping is to maintain a base boost of 0.7 bar.I remember when we dynod my old 9k we made an extra 39bhp just by swapping the forge actuator springs over from blue to red, so maybe something as simple as a weak spring in there? Might be worth trying the next size up?
The Green Giants should be plenty for 350bhp, not sure if I'd go to the 630's again, had loads of problems with mine, right pain in the arse. Injector Dynamics seem the better ones but their a few quid, I'm sure some have fitted Astra VXR ones but I don't think they'll give much more than the GG's? I'm guessing 370's possible as you have the 7cm exhaust housing?
With the 9-5 do they upgrade the fpr to 3.5bar plus add the bigger fuel pump/injectors? Always thought you needed the 3.5fpr at stage 3?
Can you recommend any decent boost gauges? I'm leaning towards a TIM turbo gauge, only 20 quid off eBay. Would like to try and fit it to the dashboard but shall see.
After a hard drive last night, steam started coming out the bonnet - I identified it as a split coolant hose, should really have uprated these to silicone during the engine build.
Luckily it happened only half a mile from home, and the engine temperature didn't even climb. Safe to say I will be cycling to work until this is fixed.
Considering ordering a '9-5 02'-10' all 4 cyl Petrol Models DO88 Coolant Hose Kit' from PartsForSaabs - http://www.partsforsaabs.com/product_info.php?cPat... , but apparently this version doesn't contain a water valve / heater valve kit, not sure whether I need one or not.
Luckily it happened only half a mile from home, and the engine temperature didn't even climb. Safe to say I will be cycling to work until this is fixed.
Considering ordering a '9-5 02'-10' all 4 cyl Petrol Models DO88 Coolant Hose Kit' from PartsForSaabs - http://www.partsforsaabs.com/product_info.php?cPat... , but apparently this version doesn't contain a water valve / heater valve kit, not sure whether I need one or not.
Had a few teething issues, it isn't running perfect just yet.
First of all, due to the poor torque curve (tailing off), peak power was down.
My initial thoughts were that it was running poorly at the top end because it needed a stronger actuator spring, so I swapped the 0.8 bar for a 1.0 bar spring (this refers to base boost).
A trip to Noobtune confirmed that the loss of power at the top end is due to the current airbox being too restrictive (Despite having the enlarged Isuzu intake snorkel and less restrictive JR Panel filter). Of course it was! How did I not notice that I needed to upgrade the air filter? Not just me, how did anyone not notice this?! Ultimately it's my fault.
Karl recommended that the perfect air filter setup would be a Jetex cone filter with an 80mm rubber neck - https://www.jetex.co.uk/website/conefilters.php?in... , along with an aluminium connecting pipe (also from Jetex) https://www.jetex.co.uk/jetexstore/aluminium-conne... , all of which sitting inside a stock airbox that has been cut to allow better airflow:
So off to work me and my friend (who has a hot knife!) went:
With this cone filter installed, it is now hitting the required mAir values of 1600 mg (Which equates to roughly 516 NM), but is dropping off at higher revs and is VERY laggy off-boost.
Karl has recommended re-fitting the 0.8 bar spring, which I will do in the next couple of weeks.
In addition, the Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump has started making a right racket, whining away, was near silent before.
Luckily, FuelPerformance ( http://www.fuelperformance.co.uk/ ) have kindly offered me a direct swap/replacement, an 'HFP' 255 LPH.
So with the 0.8 bar spring and the different fuel pump installed, the car should in theory hit 350+ bhp and 398 lb ft.
Car still looking tidy, but is still in need of a wheel refurb, and some work on the front and rear bumpers.
..and a few more pictures because why not..
Gave her a good clean on Sunday, and a pic of the Abbott Racing exhaust system, which seems to be holding up well:
First of all, due to the poor torque curve (tailing off), peak power was down.
My initial thoughts were that it was running poorly at the top end because it needed a stronger actuator spring, so I swapped the 0.8 bar for a 1.0 bar spring (this refers to base boost).
A trip to Noobtune confirmed that the loss of power at the top end is due to the current airbox being too restrictive (Despite having the enlarged Isuzu intake snorkel and less restrictive JR Panel filter). Of course it was! How did I not notice that I needed to upgrade the air filter? Not just me, how did anyone not notice this?! Ultimately it's my fault.
Karl recommended that the perfect air filter setup would be a Jetex cone filter with an 80mm rubber neck - https://www.jetex.co.uk/website/conefilters.php?in... , along with an aluminium connecting pipe (also from Jetex) https://www.jetex.co.uk/jetexstore/aluminium-conne... , all of which sitting inside a stock airbox that has been cut to allow better airflow:
So off to work me and my friend (who has a hot knife!) went:
With this cone filter installed, it is now hitting the required mAir values of 1600 mg (Which equates to roughly 516 NM), but is dropping off at higher revs and is VERY laggy off-boost.
Karl has recommended re-fitting the 0.8 bar spring, which I will do in the next couple of weeks.
In addition, the Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump has started making a right racket, whining away, was near silent before.
Luckily, FuelPerformance ( http://www.fuelperformance.co.uk/ ) have kindly offered me a direct swap/replacement, an 'HFP' 255 LPH.
So with the 0.8 bar spring and the different fuel pump installed, the car should in theory hit 350+ bhp and 398 lb ft.
Car still looking tidy, but is still in need of a wheel refurb, and some work on the front and rear bumpers.
..and a few more pictures because why not..
Gave her a good clean on Sunday, and a pic of the Abbott Racing exhaust system, which seems to be holding up well:
Edited by HybridAero on Thursday 23 June 13:48
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