Porsche - the new TVR?
Discussion
I've posted some topics on other forums (please ignore the Latin plural debate!) about my buying dilemma - 996 cab or XKR convertible. Part of the Porsche appeal has always been German mechanical reliability (I've had, and loved several old BMW's). However, having spending some time on your forum I am utterly amazed at the tales of repeated, major reliability issues - its begining to read more like a TVR forum 
So, the question is: My heart wants a 996, but for the same price i can get an XJR from a dealer with 400bhp and superb manufacturer waranty and reliability; is the 996 sill worth the punt or are Porsches not what they were?
So, the question is: My heart wants a 996, but for the same price i can get an XJR from a dealer with 400bhp and superb manufacturer waranty and reliability; is the 996 sill worth the punt or are Porsches not what they were?Depends what you want from the driving experience. I've test driven an XKR and, while the straight-line speed was impressive, the supercharger whine (and lack of engine noise) and the lightweight, uninvolving steering were not. Pity, since I think the XKR looks gorgeous...
I think the 996 can do better than that, especially with a sports exhaust.
I think the 996 can do better than that, especially with a sports exhaust.
OK so the 996 engines haven't been as bomb-proof as usual Porsche fare, but they're nowhere near as bad as TVR!!!
I seem to recall that some of the supercharged Jag V8s had problems with cylinder liner coatings, but I may be wrong.
If the RMS issue worries you, and you have to have a 996 or newer, then get a Turbo or GT3, problem solved.
I seem to recall that some of the supercharged Jag V8s had problems with cylinder liner coatings, but I may be wrong.
If the RMS issue worries you, and you have to have a 996 or newer, then get a Turbo or GT3, problem solved.
800 just so you are aware....993 engine 1994-98 no problem....996 late 1997-996-current 997 ..derivative of the Boxta..potential problem...both the Gt3 & 996 Turbo lumps aredifferent, they are a derivative of the Gt1 lump which are close to bomb proof!
I you own one within a warranty, where is the problem.
Depends what you want out of the car.....I have a very memorable run with an Xkr in my 2002 996 C2 on the way back from Goodwood, o.k. he had the horsepower advantage but even with my elderly father as a passenger we arrived the the restaurant 50 miles away over 2o mins earlier. I am sure the Xkr guy revelled in the comfort.
I you own one within a warranty, where is the problem.
Depends what you want out of the car.....I have a very memorable run with an Xkr in my 2002 996 C2 on the way back from Goodwood, o.k. he had the horsepower advantage but even with my elderly father as a passenger we arrived the the restaurant 50 miles away over 2o mins earlier. I am sure the Xkr guy revelled in the comfort.
You are spot on, Jaguar (along with BMW) had huge problems with nakasil linings, owing to high sulphur content of some UK and US fuels in the late '90's. However, that issue was well documented and well resolved by manufacturers/dealers.......the RMS thing seems to go on and on, and more of a fundamental engine design flaw by Porsche?
800 said:
You are spot on, Jaguar (along with BMW) had huge problems with nakasil linings, owing to high sulphur content of some UK and US fuels in the late '90's. However, that issue was well documented and well resolved by manufacturers/dealers.......the RMS thing seems to go on and on, and more of a fundamental engine design flaw by Porsche?
Well a poster on one of the other RMS threads said that he's had a new part fitted as part of a clutch / RMS replacement, after numerous RMS failures... and claims that it is intended to fix the initial design issue. I'd be surprised if Porsche don't engineer the problem away eventually... after all the 911 still exists, eh?
And if you like supercharger whine, you can always get a 911 with a supercharger, like mine
It will be a cold day in hell before Porsche ever come close to TVR in the unreliability stakes, if my personal experience if anything to go by! Have owned a GT3 Mk2 for a year and close to 12,000 miles now. Absolutely nothing has gone wrong with it. Compare that to my 5 years and close to 60,000 miles with 3 TVRs - all of which were "decent" ones but regularly needed trips back to dealers for all sorts of niggles.
Just to add another view on the topic, take a look at TÜV's yearly tests. They probably look more for safety related faults than for leaking RMS'es, but still the figures speak for themselves I think...
2-3 years old cars: Boxster best car with 2,6% faulty cars, 911 shared 10th place 3,8% faulty.
4-5 years old: Box shared 5th place and 4,6%, 911 shared 8th with 4,9%.
6-7 years old: Box second at 6,2%, 911 4th at 7%.
8-9 years old: 911 best at 7,0%.
10-11 years old: 911 best at 8,0%.
See results here : TÜV-test (in german only, sorry...)
Ramzez
2-3 years old cars: Boxster best car with 2,6% faulty cars, 911 shared 10th place 3,8% faulty.
4-5 years old: Box shared 5th place and 4,6%, 911 shared 8th with 4,9%.
6-7 years old: Box second at 6,2%, 911 4th at 7%.
8-9 years old: 911 best at 7,0%.
10-11 years old: 911 best at 8,0%.
See results here : TÜV-test (in german only, sorry...)
Ramzez
800 said:
I've posted some topics on other forums (please ignore the Latin plural debate!) about my buying dilemma - 996 cab or XKR convertible. Part of the Porsche appeal has always been German mechanical reliability (I've had, and loved several old BMW's). However, having spending some time on your forum I am utterly amazed at the tales of repeated, major reliability issues - its begining to read more like a TVR forum
What is your budget?
Couldn't you just buy the new Boxster? I sat in one the other day (which my mate has subsequently bought) and it felt a million bucks. Better than a 996 cab or jag, that's for sure.
>> Edited by johnny senna on Thursday 24th February 09:02
Careful also with the statistical relevance of the technical issues you read about in this forum.
I had 30,000 trouble free miles, and am not waking up everymorning posting here to let the world know of that fact.
In other words, by reading this forum, you will see a huge representation of P drivers highlighting specific issues, but keep in mind the silent majority who does not post that everything is hunky dory.
OK, truth be told I got an RMS change too myself 6 month ago, but well.....
>> Edited by Gulliver on Thursday 24th February 10:41
Okay, i drive a 993, but i think the 996/Box RMS issue has been blown way out of proportion.
You get an RMS leak, you lose a tiny amount of oil between services, and it may mean your clutch wears a little prematurely.
So when you need a new clutch, you get the RMS done at the same time for an extra £20.
Where's the heartbreak? I'm sorry, but RMS does not mean instant catastrophic engine failure.
VS
You get an RMS leak, you lose a tiny amount of oil between services, and it may mean your clutch wears a little prematurely.
So when you need a new clutch, you get the RMS done at the same time for an extra £20.
Where's the heartbreak? I'm sorry, but RMS does not mean instant catastrophic engine failure.
VS
Very true Sideways, I think the scaremongering is coming from the fact that in the US, and with consumer laws, the slightlest flaw leads to an engine change if they can't fix it. Hence people get the idea that a faulty RMS will screw your engine.
So yes, a RMS is a slow leak, no more no less.
On the face of it I agree that "RMS" is repeated with dread even though it's only a damned crankshaft seal, so worst case is failure and clutch pollution. But 9M, who should know what he's talking about, makes the comment "The truth is that they leak. The myth is that it is not serious." If the RMS fails because of crank movement, then it sounds like replacing the seal is just a bandaid that will almost certainly not stop it failing again. It's all very well if your clutch needs replacing anyway, but dropping the box to do the RMS in isolation would be fairly pricey just in labour.
Add to that the other issues raised by 9M in this thread - www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=154369&f=48&h=0, i.e. dropped liners, fixity of the bottom end, inertmediate shaft bearing failures, etc.
If I had a 996 I'd keep it under warranty.
Add to that the other issues raised by 9M in this thread - www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=154369&f=48&h=0, i.e. dropped liners, fixity of the bottom end, inertmediate shaft bearing failures, etc.
If I had a 996 I'd keep it under warranty.
Every manufacturer has niggles with every model. The 993, probably the most evolved Porsche of all, had a wiring loom recall and there was even that cabrio roof motor problem.
The new generation of water cooled Porsches do not seem quite as robust and build quality appears a fraction lower than tradition dictates. Some 996tts had porous blocks, the ceramic brakes are not winning as many fans as they should, there are RMS issues, whatever. The fact is, it's a mass market volume seller making Porsche a lot of money per unit. Even the 993 had an accountant get involved with the engineering (which in all honesty is probably what saved the company, anyway, so who's complaining). The 996tts still use 964 derived bottom ends, IIRC, which shows you when the engineers last over-engineered the every day models.
This is not to say that the new generation of Porsches are bad. Like the new generation of Mercedes, they aren't as bullet proof as they may be, but they are still far from TVR in the reliability stakes. Millions are spent on R&D and testing, which small volume manufacturers can't afford to do. The product WILL be better - mechanically speaking - as a result. But odd faults may still occur; all the more stark for appearing on a mass market sports car that has a 'reliable' reputation and that doesn't have legions of flat cap, pipe smoking fans defending its faults as 'character'.
And to be honest, I think the new Boxster and 997 have taken a step forward with build quality, so things are looking up. I just hope that Porsche are not too arrogant to admit when they make the odd mistake. It took a couple of years of prodding from enthusiast owners for Porsche to own up to the 993 wiring loom manufacturing fault.
>> Edited by domster on Thursday 24th February 14:46
The new generation of water cooled Porsches do not seem quite as robust and build quality appears a fraction lower than tradition dictates. Some 996tts had porous blocks, the ceramic brakes are not winning as many fans as they should, there are RMS issues, whatever. The fact is, it's a mass market volume seller making Porsche a lot of money per unit. Even the 993 had an accountant get involved with the engineering (which in all honesty is probably what saved the company, anyway, so who's complaining). The 996tts still use 964 derived bottom ends, IIRC, which shows you when the engineers last over-engineered the every day models.
This is not to say that the new generation of Porsches are bad. Like the new generation of Mercedes, they aren't as bullet proof as they may be, but they are still far from TVR in the reliability stakes. Millions are spent on R&D and testing, which small volume manufacturers can't afford to do. The product WILL be better - mechanically speaking - as a result. But odd faults may still occur; all the more stark for appearing on a mass market sports car that has a 'reliable' reputation and that doesn't have legions of flat cap, pipe smoking fans defending its faults as 'character'.
And to be honest, I think the new Boxster and 997 have taken a step forward with build quality, so things are looking up. I just hope that Porsche are not too arrogant to admit when they make the odd mistake. It took a couple of years of prodding from enthusiast owners for Porsche to own up to the 993 wiring loom manufacturing fault.
>> Edited by domster on Thursday 24th February 14:46
verysideways said:
Okay, i drive a 993, but i think the 996/Box RMS issue has been blown way out of proportion.
You get an RMS leak, you lose a tiny amount of oil between services, and it may mean your clutch wears a little prematurely.
So when you need a new clutch, you get the RMS done at the same time for an extra £20.
Where's the heartbreak? I'm sorry, but RMS does not mean instant catastrophic engine failure.
VS
most sensible post iv read all day.
This is exactly what I was told a while back , but the recent hype got me concerned too.
800 said:
My heart wants a 996, but for the same price i can get an XJR from a dealer with 400bhp and superb manufacturer waranty and reliability; is the 996 sill worth the punt or are Porsches not what they were?
Go for the Porsche, the Jag will always lose (devaluation) and the Porsche has the highest resale value (%age wise) of any manufacturer. Apart from which Jags electrics are the standard of FIAT/Lancia in the 70s nowadays...that's why I junked my new S-Type 4.2 for a 996 and would not look back (apart from in tears) at a Jag
I've had my 996 for 6 months.
It's had the following:
Car sold to me low on coolant.
Car sold to me without current MOT(!)
New mass airflow sensor
New rear main seal no 1
New Oil seperator (engine smoking twice-2 visits)
Battery dead- needed recovering from home.
N/s headlight packed up day after collected from above job. Paid to have it done at auto electricians- bored with returning it (it had shaken out of socket)
Rear main seal No 2 leaking.
I have done just over 2000 miles in it.
Bought from OPC. with 32000 on it (top money)
What reliability?????????????????????????
The problem with the rear seal is, you'll never sell a car dripping with oil, will you?
los angeles said:
Don't know about the UK-Europe experience but over here, 800, Porsche are experiencing a real low in reliability, mainly because of the Boxster, whereas Jaguar are at the top and have been three years running for dependibility and good dealer service, next to Lexus.
I recall reading that Porsche's plummet in the J.D. Power survey was largely due to the Cayenne rather than the Boxster or the 911. Where's your info from LA?
i owned an xkr a few years ago. very nice, capable, fast car.
was like driving a wallowy barge though with its cruddy old man light steering. no feedback or anything through the wheel.
i am now on my 2nd 911 cos they are so bloomin' briliant. just get one and enjoy yourself. get a c4s convertible too. they are the dogs wotsits in the cab world IMHO
problems? i've had problems with all my cars. if you're worried about problems buy a bicycle.
>> Edited by 911nutter on Friday 25th February 09:51
was like driving a wallowy barge though with its cruddy old man light steering. no feedback or anything through the wheel.
i am now on my 2nd 911 cos they are so bloomin' briliant. just get one and enjoy yourself. get a c4s convertible too. they are the dogs wotsits in the cab world IMHO
problems? i've had problems with all my cars. if you're worried about problems buy a bicycle.
>> Edited by 911nutter on Friday 25th February 09:51
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