Finally: Some facts on the GT-R's Ring time
Discussion
Here a couple of interesting observations from Nissan's GT-R record drive, that come from a highly reliable source without any connections to/interest in Porsche.
Nissan had a couple of GT-R's at the Ring that day. The car that did the record run featured:
Porsche had Walter Rohrl checking out the GT-R and his best time was 07:45. Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.
Given these data points the 07:29 posted by Nissan were not set by a standard car. End of story.
Given that Walter R managed a truly excellent 07:45 I wonder why Nissan bothered to cheat at all. It's a fantastic time well into 997TT/GT3RS territory for a fraction of the price that should really get the guys at Porsche (and potential customers) thinking. IMHO the car also has a dramatic presence in the metal and sounds great.
The 07:29 from a standard GT-R, however, only people could believe who like to ignore some basic laws of physics and/or are happy to find a reason to look down on people who can afford more expensive cars than themselves.
Nissan had a couple of GT-R's at the Ring that day. The car that did the record run featured:
- stripped out interior
- missing pre-cat
- use of 110 octane race fuel
Porsche had Walter Rohrl checking out the GT-R and his best time was 07:45. Yesterday another former Rallye champion (who holds the fastest lap on the Ring in the wet - so no rookie either) managed to get near 07:50 in not fully ideal conditions using a stock customer car from overseas.
Given these data points the 07:29 posted by Nissan were not set by a standard car. End of story.
Given that Walter R managed a truly excellent 07:45 I wonder why Nissan bothered to cheat at all. It's a fantastic time well into 997TT/GT3RS territory for a fraction of the price that should really get the guys at Porsche (and potential customers) thinking. IMHO the car also has a dramatic presence in the metal and sounds great.
The 07:29 from a standard GT-R, however, only people could believe who like to ignore some basic laws of physics and/or are happy to find a reason to look down on people who can afford more expensive cars than themselves.
Seems simple enough to me. Nissan are claiming these are legitimate figures and have offered training to other company's drivers who can't obtain the necessary performance from their car to equal those lap times.
Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
supermono said:
Seems simple enough to me. Nissan are claiming these are legitimate figures and have offered training to other company's drivers who can't obtain the necessary performance from their car to equal those lap times.
Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
Given that Rohrl and the driver who tested the GT-R yesterday are both professional and successful racers who know every inch of the Ring combined with the fact that the GT-R is rather easy to drive, I wonder what Nissan could teach them...Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
Dr S said:
Given that Rohrl and the driver who tested the GT-R yesterday are both professional and successful racers who know every inch of the Ring combined with the fact that the GT-R is rather easy to drive, I wonder what Nissan could teach them...
Rohrl is fast on the Ring, but by no means the fastest driver... I can think of two off the top of my head who are quicker than him... I don't see any "facts" here - I see second hand observations from an unknown source posted on a Porsche internet forum. A long way from "facts".
Surely, as a poster above indicates, Porsche should just take Nissan up on their offer of showing them how it's done.
Surely, as a poster above indicates, Porsche should just take Nissan up on their offer of showing them how it's done.
Edited by will_968 on Tuesday 4th November 15:29
Dr S said:
supermono said:
Seems simple enough to me. Nissan are claiming these are legitimate figures and have offered training to other company's drivers who can't obtain the necessary performance from their car to equal those lap times.
Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
Given that Rohrl and the driver who tested the GT-R yesterday are both professional and successful racers who know every inch of the Ring combined with the fact that the GT-R is rather easy to drive, I wonder what Nissan could teach them...Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
SS7
shoestring7 said:
Dr S said:
supermono said:
Seems simple enough to me. Nissan are claiming these are legitimate figures and have offered training to other company's drivers who can't obtain the necessary performance from their car to equal those lap times.
Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
Given that Rohrl and the driver who tested the GT-R yesterday are both professional and successful racers who know every inch of the Ring combined with the fact that the GT-R is rather easy to drive, I wonder what Nissan could teach them...Just get Rohl to take Nissan up on their kind offer and they'll simply show how they get the car round in that time.
SM
SS7
My mate says Sabine is faster than Walter. But as I'm not going to name him, it's hardly credible.
I think Walter should go along with Nissan to see if it can be done. Then again, as a Porsche test driver, I'm sure he's not under orders to try too hard.
What would be really fun is if Nissan took a GT2 and found a few more seconds from it. That would make me laugh.
(Edited to change Walther to Walter - guess it must have been from going to see 007 at the weekend!)
I think Walter should go along with Nissan to see if it can be done. Then again, as a Porsche test driver, I'm sure he's not under orders to try too hard.
What would be really fun is if Nissan took a GT2 and found a few more seconds from it. That would make me laugh.
(Edited to change Walther to Walter - guess it must have been from going to see 007 at the weekend!)
Edited by noumenon on Tuesday 4th November 17:10
Sabine faster than Walter?!? She shared a drive in my mates car at the 'Ring a while back. Seemed quite wound up, was slower than said mate and other two drivers - all good but keen club drivers only - and then stacked it on the first lap! Guess, as with everything, it depends who you talk to............
Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 4th November 17:22
Edited by Pugsey on Tuesday 4th November 17:22
I have no reason to doubt your friend any more than I have to believe him, however time and time again we see the GT-R fall short of its 'claimed' performance. There's no doubt that it's an outstanding car for the money, but plenty of people have shown that it's not as quick, or mechanically reliable (quite a few mashed gear boxes already) as Nissan state. I don't think we'll ever hear the end of it either. Even if Porsche and Nissan do battle, one on one at the ring, someone will still cry foul over the results!
As I know the person I got the information from and you don't I understand why some of you are sceptical. Too much bullsh*t spread on websites, I guess. But I do not have any reason not to trust him.
It remains a fact (to me) that a successful professional race driver who knows the Ring inside out (and has the fastest lap in the wet - just to reiterate that he is no rookie) could not get a customer spec car below 07:50 yesterday. I have been there, seen the car, the driver and the data logs. And boy, he tried everything to set a time as low as possible.
If Walter R is so much slower than the Nissan driver, then the latter would be able to drive a 997GT2 also 15 seconds faster around the Ring than him. This would give a 07:15 time which I doubt would be realistic...
I see that there are still plenty of people who love to believe the Nissan claims. Nobody hinders you to do so. I'm just surprised that you don't get second thoughts when a 1.8 tonne car with 480hp that carries many compromises to work on the road as well laps the Ring virtually at the same speed as an MC12, a car designed for the track with substantially lower weight and much higher power. I guess it is the same people who still believe in Santa Claus...
It remains a fact (to me) that a successful professional race driver who knows the Ring inside out (and has the fastest lap in the wet - just to reiterate that he is no rookie) could not get a customer spec car below 07:50 yesterday. I have been there, seen the car, the driver and the data logs. And boy, he tried everything to set a time as low as possible.
If Walter R is so much slower than the Nissan driver, then the latter would be able to drive a 997GT2 also 15 seconds faster around the Ring than him. This would give a 07:15 time which I doubt would be realistic...
I see that there are still plenty of people who love to believe the Nissan claims. Nobody hinders you to do so. I'm just surprised that you don't get second thoughts when a 1.8 tonne car with 480hp that carries many compromises to work on the road as well laps the Ring virtually at the same speed as an MC12, a car designed for the track with substantially lower weight and much higher power. I guess it is the same people who still believe in Santa Claus...
*yawns*
Everybody will always have something to complain about. The 'official' times are all rubbish (generally), and have been for quite some time - for example factory hot 7's being banned from the results, as were Radicals?
Nissan (or whom ever), were always after the headline for the pub talk/bore/Clarkson to talk to people about.
So Nissan cheated? They did the same with the R33 GTR (that killed the times of a lot of famous marques), but no-one got their knickers in a twist. So why is it now? What is so important that we have these stories (and I believe they are coming in once a week, and have done since the summer)?
So car manufactuers lie. Big deal. Sad, but true. Sorry to be so blunt....
Everybody will always have something to complain about. The 'official' times are all rubbish (generally), and have been for quite some time - for example factory hot 7's being banned from the results, as were Radicals?
Nissan (or whom ever), were always after the headline for the pub talk/bore/Clarkson to talk to people about.
So Nissan cheated? They did the same with the R33 GTR (that killed the times of a lot of famous marques), but no-one got their knickers in a twist. So why is it now? What is so important that we have these stories (and I believe they are coming in once a week, and have done since the summer)?
So car manufactuers lie. Big deal. Sad, but true. Sorry to be so blunt....
Dr S said:
I'm just surprised that you don't get second thoughts when a 1.8 tonne car with 480hp that carries many compromises to work on the road as well laps the Ring virtually at the same speed as an MC12, a car designed for the track with substantially lower weight and much higher power. I guess it is the same people who still believe in Santa Claus...
er, trick diffs and electronic dampers? Ever wondered why the Evo series of cars is comparatively so quick around typical track layouts they would appear to have no right to be quick around? The GT2 is not as 'electronic' in this respect. If you look at the active diffs on most modern WRC cars, you'd be STUNNED at the effect these have on the vehicles performance.
fergus said:
Dr S said:
I'm just surprised that you don't get second thoughts when a 1.8 tonne car with 480hp that carries many compromises to work on the road as well laps the Ring virtually at the same speed as an MC12, a car designed for the track with substantially lower weight and much higher power. I guess it is the same people who still believe in Santa Claus...
er, trick diffs and electronic dampers? Ever wondered why the Evo series of cars is comparatively so quick around typical track layouts they would appear to have no right to be quick around? The GT2 is not as 'electronic' in this respect. If you look at the active diffs on most modern WRC cars, you'd be STUNNED at the effect these have on the vehicles performance.
The active diffs and active everything on WRC cars are amazing. Carlos Sainz wasn't to happy with them as last of the old school, but Loeb is brilliant.
Whether these things are good for a circuit car is a different matter.
There is nought to compare.
I've never driven a GT3 or a GT-R, but Nissan marketing is showing the GT-R as the 'anyone can drive this car well'
How clever is that?
Even Clarkson liked it.
It's a bargain competant car.
The 240Z was the big thing way back. Its great success was making other manufacturers pay attention.
Do you think Nissan could show me how to drive well?
Whether these things are good for a circuit car is a different matter.
There is nought to compare.
I've never driven a GT3 or a GT-R, but Nissan marketing is showing the GT-R as the 'anyone can drive this car well'
How clever is that?
Even Clarkson liked it.
It's a bargain competant car.
The 240Z was the big thing way back. Its great success was making other manufacturers pay attention.
Do you think Nissan could show me how to drive well?
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