Cayman S engine failure and how Porsche will deal with you.
Discussion
JACK (V.O.)
I'm a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula.
....
JACK (V.O.)
Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X...
JACK
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
BUSISNESS WOMAN
Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
JACK
Oh, you wouldn't believe.
BUSINESS WOMAN
... Which... car company do you work for?
JACK
A major one.
I'm a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula.
....
JACK (V.O.)
Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), and multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals X...
JACK
If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
BUSISNESS WOMAN
Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?
JACK
Oh, you wouldn't believe.
BUSINESS WOMAN
... Which... car company do you work for?
JACK
A major one.
I'm not sure I agree that "engines should last the lifetime of the car". I agree in principal but engines can be abused, if you underfill or overfill the oil you can end up with a knackered engine pretty damn quick.
However, critically, and particularly in the OPs case, he bought the car from an OPC new, had it serviced as per schedule, and - I presume - DME doesn't show unwarrantable engine overrevs. Short of not driving the car I'm not sure what else he could've done to prevent this problem manifesting. That's the crux of the matter imo.
Also, if (and I don't believe this) this bore scoring comes about as a consequence of "driving it wrong" (launching off the lights, not leaving car sat running idle, et were mentioned in the other "how to prevent cylinder scoring" thread) then the ECU should either restrict this behaviour or compensate for it. It is not acceptable in my opinion for people to have to drive these things radically differently than they would any other car they bought from any manufacturer. Common sense things like running a car in, letting the oil get warm, etc apply to all cars... saying "Sir if you have a Porsche you should refrain from accelerating from a standstill lest you end up with a knackered engine" is unacceptable in my eyes.
I personally sleep fairly well at night because my car (now) has the OPC warranty, but it does still take the shine off of ownership really.
However, critically, and particularly in the OPs case, he bought the car from an OPC new, had it serviced as per schedule, and - I presume - DME doesn't show unwarrantable engine overrevs. Short of not driving the car I'm not sure what else he could've done to prevent this problem manifesting. That's the crux of the matter imo.
Also, if (and I don't believe this) this bore scoring comes about as a consequence of "driving it wrong" (launching off the lights, not leaving car sat running idle, et were mentioned in the other "how to prevent cylinder scoring" thread) then the ECU should either restrict this behaviour or compensate for it. It is not acceptable in my opinion for people to have to drive these things radically differently than they would any other car they bought from any manufacturer. Common sense things like running a car in, letting the oil get warm, etc apply to all cars... saying "Sir if you have a Porsche you should refrain from accelerating from a standstill lest you end up with a knackered engine" is unacceptable in my eyes.
I personally sleep fairly well at night because my car (now) has the OPC warranty, but it does still take the shine off of ownership really.
Edited by Durzel on Thursday 29th September 14:04
anonymous said:
[redacted]
You state your case as if Porsche *have* produced perfect engines that have never had design flaws. There has been no such thing as a 100% bullet-proof, mass produced flat-six engine from Porsche.I am realistic about what Porsche can provide.
Porsche have never produced perfect engine designs that have 0% risk of failure and never will.
Carl_Docklands said:
You state your case as if Porsche *have* produced perfect engines that have never had design flaws. There has been no such thing as a 100% bullet-proof, mass produced flat-six engine from Porsche.
I am realistic about what Porsche can provide.
Porsche have never produced perfect engine designs that have 0% risk of failure and never will.
What % failure rate are you happy with?I am realistic about what Porsche can provide.
Porsche have never produced perfect engine designs that have 0% risk of failure and never will.
What % rate are Porsche having?
Do you think they are happy with that rate?
I think only Smarties know the answers to two of those questions.
Globs said:
colin 82 said:
I have to admit I'm slightly concerned.
Before driving you caymans and other Porsches do you guys warm the car up etc for a period of time before setting off??
It doesn't matter, it seems the problem of bore scoring is caused by stopping with a hot engine (maybe at traffic lights), then booting it when setting off.Before driving you caymans and other Porsches do you guys warm the car up etc for a period of time before setting off??
The idle-at-stop fails to cool the engine (flow too low) and when you boot it the feeble coolant system is too hot and too slow to react (the thermostat is on the coolant _entry_ to the engine!), so you get localised coolant boiling, cylinder temps shoot up (you have 300BHP ish to heat it up quickly with) and the soft bore metal scrapes off in clumps - scored bore.
Carl_Docklands said:
Why is a car any different to any other consumable device which is 5 years old? Nothing this complex or highly strung is engineered perfectly.
Rubbish.Far higher strung motorbikes exceed these mileages every day.
The parts that are breaking are SIMPLE. I.e. 100 years of motoring simple.
Make an oil seal actually seal.
Make a shaft bearing and actually lubricate it.
Make a coolant system good enough to stop you melting your engine.
Simple, basic, schoolboy errors.
For years and years. It's beyond pathetic and into farce.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
My point is, I educated myself with regards to the risks of buying these cars and the potential costs involved before I bought one, in the same way any other prospective buyer of an expensive car should do.Wishing it was different won't change the risk on my car, I have already accepted the risk.
This includes ensuring I have a warranty, if something goes pop, I would be sad but, I would be financially covered.
mollytherocker said:
LOLGlobs said:
Carl_Docklands said:
Why is a car any different to any other consumable device which is 5 years old? Nothing this complex or highly strung is engineered perfectly.
Rubbish.Far higher strung motorbikes exceed these mileages every day.
The parts that are breaking are SIMPLE. I.e. 100 years of motoring simple.
Make an oil seal actually seal.
Make a shaft bearing and actually lubricate it.
Make a coolant system good enough to stop you melting your engine.
Simple, basic, schoolboy errors.
For years and years. It's beyond pathetic and into farce.
Support your cylinder liners or make them strong enough so that they dont go oval and crack.
MTR
Globs said:
Rubbish.
Far higher strung motorbikes exceed these mileages every day.
The bike comparison has some validity but remember a bike engine has nowhere near the same level of load to deal with. Most bikes are +/- 30kg either side of 190kg, a Cayman S is 1340kg. The extra weight puts a lot more strain on engine components.Far higher strung motorbikes exceed these mileages every day.
Not trying to justify Porsche's stance on the OP's problem, I think that they should be fixing his car for him and thanking him for his valued custom.
RudeDog said:
Globs said:
Rubbish.
Far higher strung motorbikes exceed these mileages every day.
The bike comparison has some validity but remember a bike engine has nowhere near the same level of load to deal with. Most bikes are +/- 30kg either side of 190kg, a Cayman S is 1340kg. The extra weight puts a lot more strain on engine components.Far higher strung motorbikes exceed these mileages every day.
Not trying to justify Porsche's stance on the OP's problem, I think that they should be fixing his car for him and thanking him for his valued custom.
Total agreement that even though the car is 'old' it certainly doesn't appear 'used' enough to warrant this failure and this response from Porsche.
It's funny, but my neighbour had a Boxster which his wife drove, and not 50yds from their front door was a tricky junction that needs a bit of commitment..
Every morning I used to see her gunning a totally cold engine (some w/spin and highish revs in first) as she negotiated the junction.. At around 35K miles the engine went pop (seized), it was about 5/6 years old, and had been on mainly short shopping commuter type journeys, where probably most of the driving was on average below the full operating temperature..
Iirc Porsche paid half the bill, was that unreasonable??
Every morning I used to see her gunning a totally cold engine (some w/spin and highish revs in first) as she negotiated the junction.. At around 35K miles the engine went pop (seized), it was about 5/6 years old, and had been on mainly short shopping commuter type journeys, where probably most of the driving was on average below the full operating temperature..
Iirc Porsche paid half the bill, was that unreasonable??
s2000db said:
It's funny, but my neighbour had a Boxster which his wife drove, and not 50yds from their front door was a tricky junction that needs a bit of commitment..
Every morning I used to see her gunning a totally cold engine (some w/spin and highish revs in first) as she negotiated the junction.. At around 35K miles the engine went pop (seized), it was about 5/6 years old, and had been on mainly short shopping commuter type journeys, where probably most of the driving was on average below the full operating temperature..
Iirc Porsche paid half the bill, was that unreasonable??
If she didnt have a warranty, then in theory I guess Porsche could have told her to whistle.Every morning I used to see her gunning a totally cold engine (some w/spin and highish revs in first) as she negotiated the junction.. At around 35K miles the engine went pop (seized), it was about 5/6 years old, and had been on mainly short shopping commuter type journeys, where probably most of the driving was on average below the full operating temperature..
Iirc Porsche paid half the bill, was that unreasonable??
Is that reasonable? I guess thats what this thread is about.
Normally, I guess I would say that a 50% contribution would be reasonable. However, the argument is that Porsche are well aware of these design short-comings and should therefore cough up.
I believe it would take a legal challenge to make them pay 100%, but the ramifactions to Porsche (Financial & reputation) if they were to lose, would mean that they would fight it to the death.
What about their reputation to their brand and their business? Thats for them to decide, but I will bet it has caused ruptions at the very top.
MTR
mollytherocker said:
I believe it would take a legal challenge to make them pay 100%, but the ramifactions to Porsche (Financial & reputation) if they were to lose, would mean that they would fight it to the death.
This.If Porsche were to admit this problem now it would not only undermine confidence in the affected models but also the brand as a whole on a scale beyond the scope of the initial claim. The best anyone in this situation can hope for I think is a settlement that doesn't involve them admitting that there is a fault, only that they are making a goodwill gesture.
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