300bhp, 350lbs feet torque 944 3 litre turbo

[333pg333]

hartech said:

Thanks 333PG333 I agree with that and to clear things up - the new project is not a commercial consideration - just for our internal development and to learn about stand alone engine management, and create something of interest. There happens to be a spin off that the pattern we made for the cylinder castings will also enable a 2.5, 2.7 or 3 litre block to be relined (if it failed) or to be changed in capacity (if someone wanted us to do it) - but this is just something we could do for people and is not a planned commercial consideration.

At my age, I am increasingly finding the computers more and more difficult to operate and yet my engineering knowledge and experience seem still useful - and so this is a combined effort between me building the basic mechaical unit and other younger people in my employ - who can take it over and learn (one of which already uses a stand-alone system on his 1.6 Honda Civic drag car that produces over 400 bhp and does low 10 secs for the standing quarter after very little development).

I think the potential of the 3 litre 944 turbo suprised us and so we thought - lets prod a bit further and see what comes out of it.

Ultimately the model is too old to become a commecial proposition but still has enough potential to play with (I have even thought of putting the engine in my 924 Carerra GT - but that would ruin its value I guess!).

The Boxster and 996 engines are where we have high market exposure and are still developing solutions to engine repairs as newer models come our way with different bore sizes and problems (currently up to and including 3.8 997S models with 99mm bore liners etc).

Perhaps I feel some emotional connection with the 944 - "old maybe but still hopefully has something to offer"!!!!!!!!!!

Baz

Yes, this really is a redundant pursuit. As you say, it's so easy and cheap for kids these days to grab a Jap buz box and pull once impossible times out of a street car, let alone a 1.6 Front wheel drive hatchback!!!!

I just got 'bit by the bug' and can't look back. Life would have been so much easier had I got into the local or Japanese car scene, but just like all of us in here, we have some part Porsche blood. I know I've spilt enough of it with my projects!

Hopefully you can do enough 986/996 motors to provide you with a little extra cash on the side to do these passion fuelled projects. I know of quite a few 951/968s that are currently over 400hp or are being built. One guy got over 600hp to the wheels in the US with a 2.5L 8v so there's life in the old dog still.

As for your 924CGT, I would leave it as it is. No doubt you could make it a much quicker car, but it would lose a considerable amount of it's value which has often struck me as ironic.

Here's a reference list of modified motors to purvey:

1. Tom M'Guinn, 3.0, Alusil, 104.5, 88, Mahle/Andial, 2.7, VR, Gomes, VR5, 450/475
2. Diver944, 3.2, Nikasil, 108, 88, JE, 2.7, Vittese, stock, Garret hybrid, 393/480
3. John Torgersen, 3.0,Steel, 104, 88, JE, 2.7, Motec M4 Pro,K27/8, 383HP@15
4. John Torgersen, 3.0,Steel, 104, 88, JE, 2.5, LR/Stg3 MAF, T04 Hybrid, 366HP@15
5. Targa72e, 3.0, Alusil, 104, 968 mod, 968 head, Motronic, T04E, cam and hp n/a
6. Mike O, 3.0, Alusil, 104.5, 88, HMR, 16v, TECgt, HMR turbo, cam and HP n/a
7. SoloRacer, 3.0, 16V, Motec
8. Kasturbo, 3.0, Alusil, 104.5, 88, Mahle/Andial, 2.7, LRS75, VR turbo, Webcam, HP n/a
9. George D 3.1, 105 Nicom, 88.6, Custom Ross Racing, TECGT, 951 cam, 540hp@23psi
10. Arto951 3.0, Alusil, 104.5, 88, Mahle/Andial, 2.7, Holset Turbo, Tatech EMS, dBilas cam
11. Pete96zhn, 3.0 darton mid, Wossner pistons, 944 head, VR EMS, Holset turbo, Standard cam
12. Phlip, 3.0 Darton Dry, 105.5JE pistons, S2 16v head, Autronic SM2 EMS, T3 turbo (R.I.P. 3/15/09)
13. Ski, 2.8, Alusil, 100.5 Ski/Mahle pistons, 88 stroke, 951 head, LR EMS
14. TurboTommy. 3.0, Alusil, 968 mod pistons, 2.7 head, VR EMS, VR turbo, JME cam
15. Weston D., 3.0, Alusil, 968 pistons, 951 head, LR EMS, rest n/a
16. Jason@paragon, factory 968 turbo. Nuff said.
17. Boost Feen, 3.0, Alusil, Tom C/Arias Pistons, 2.7 head, Motronic, LR61 turbo, 951 cam, hp n/a
18. Joel8005 3.2, bore material n/a, JE pistons, 2.7 head, LR EMS, turbo/cam/hp n/a
19. David Floyd, 106mm SFR bores, JE pistons, 951 head, VR EMS, VR4 turbo, cam and hp n/a
20. Jason Judd, 3.0 (?), Mahle pistons, Carillo rods, head n/a, Lindsey Super 75, Autronic
21. ShApe, 3.0, Alusil?, Pauter, JE, LR solid lifter conversion, 2.7 head, Web cam, HP n/a
22. CMF, 3.0, Alusil, PO rods, 88, 951 head mod, VEMS 3.3, webcam, Garrett GT3582, 421.8hp@16psi
23. Corleone, 3.0, Darton MID, JE, 951 head, Link G2, JME solid cam, 449hp/560hp@1/1.25 bar
24. Turbo-Uli, 3.0, 104 Alusil, 88 crank, 16v head, rest n/a
25. Nick_968, 3.0, Alusil, 104, Mahle/Andial, 2.7 head, Motec, VR5 turbo, JME cam, 370/355 @?
26. jm964cab 3.0, Alusil?, JE pistons, KKK28/9, Mafterbuner, APE MAF, cam and hp n/a
27. zagaone, 3.4, 16v. 108mm bore/93mm stroke; electromotive; 493rwhp/486tq @1bar.
28. 968TurboS, 3.0 Nikasil block, Carillo rods, JME 2.7 head, GT3076R
29. MrNasty951, 3.0, 8V, Mahle, VR EMS, Wasted Spark, VR5Turbo, Pauter, Webcam, LR Solid cam
30. Miles968, 3.0, 16V, Mahle Pistons, PH Custom Rods, PH K29 Turbo
31. tone3721, 3.0, Alusil, 104mm, 88, mahle, 2.7, LR, stock(951), VR3
32. 420WHP944, 2.8, 8V, Carillo Rods, Mahle Pistons, Kokeln Club Turbo, MAP Sensor, 422bhp @1.2 bar
33. dand86951, 104.75 alusil, 88 crank, JE coated, 2.7 head, TEC3, K27/8, Carillo Rods
34. tomjshore, holy grail motor -- factory 3 liter turbo
35. Thom 3.0, 2.7 8v, 104.5 Mahle/andial, 88, SPS turbo, VR EMS
36. A.Anon, 3.2, Nikasil 108 bore, 88 crank, JE pistons, Carrillos, 2.7 8v, VR Maf, 3" exhaust, SPS turbo
37. Fortysixandtwo, 3.0, 968 head, 968 block, Tec-3, Under Pressure Performance turbo


List of engines in progress:

1. RolexNJ, 3.1 MID Wet, Arrow Titanium Rods, Wossner Pistons, 16V, Tec3, VR Stg 5 Turbo, N/A
2. Duke, 3.0, Alusil, 104.5, 88, mod 968 variocam, Link G3+, Garrett GT3582R, builder: Duke
3. 333pg333, 3.?, 8v, Darton dry, 105, 88, Supertech, CEP, LINK G4, CEP, BW S362
4. thingo, 3.1 Darton MID,custom wossner,16v,FP HTA gt3582,variable cams,motec
5. mickeyoman, LR 3.1, 105 NiCom, 88, JE pistons, Carrillo, 8v LRsolid, LR S75, LR Chips/MAF
6. tconn, 3.0L Alusil 104.5/88, Mahle/Andial, 2.7 head, Tec GT
7. Olli Snellman, 3.0, Alusil, 88, Mahle/Andial 104.5, 2.7 head, Holse turbo, VR EMS, Dbilas cam
8. adrian1, 3L, Mahle 104.5/88
9. spoolin51, 2.8 8v VR cam, GT3076R, Darton Dry sleeves, JE 106mm,LR EMS
10. ModdedEverything951S, 3.1, Darton Dry, 106, 88, Wossner/Wossner, 2.7, TecGT, VR Cam, VR5
11. mikes3.0cabturbo 3.0 16v alusil, 104.5 wossner pistons/wossner rods, 60-1, 4424EMS

[333pg333]

Niffty951 said:

hartech said:

Perhaps I feel some emotional connection with the 944 - "old maybe but still hopefully has something to offer"!!!!!!!!!!

Baz

333pg333 provides perhaps some of my favourite recent examples that the 944 is still capable of punching above its weight. I particularly like this one. There is nothing in the numbers to suggest his modified 2.5ltr 944T should even be able to keep the GTR in sight but watching from 1.20 onwards the 944 doesn't give up much ground on the strights and actually seems to have the edge under braking. The GTR looks like he can get on the power earlier out of the bends, but for stability where corners switch from one direction to the other (the area the GTR is said to have the 997 turbo floored) it almost looks like the 944 is faster.

I know there's a valid argument that track day stories offer a poor comparison but that considered it still looks impressively close to me and the fact they lap the very hard working RX7 track car is an indication that neither driver here was hanging about;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqeqtJYf6CI

Thanks Ben. I remember that day quite well. It was just a mid week track or open day. So you get quite a few cars out there and many of the guys are not that experienced. They're meant to put you into speed and/or experienced related groups but often that just doesn't work out so well on the day. Having said that, I know the guy in the GTR was flat out. Unfortunately my camera was not in a great position and much of his car was blocked by my mirror. This was a shame as he was 4 wheel drifting around turn 3. (3rd turn after main straight). It was a pity not to have captured this just to make it clear just how hard he was going. To be fair he was on OE tyres. Not sure what they are, and I'm sure they would be pretty good, but I was on non slick track tyres. Now from my side, I had a severe suspension malfunction on that day, plus we found out afterwards that I'd had my car too low anyway, so I was not getting anywhere near some of the apex's that day. You can see through the fast turn 1. The apex is miles away, so forgive me for that, but it makes you think what would have happened had I been better prepared. I would have overtaken him under brakes into turn 2 and held him off all the way around the track. Depending on how close he was back onto the main straight, he may have got past me there, but I doubt it. So, yes, I think this is a great advertisement for our cars. I'm proud of my car (well I was... ) and I'm an ok driver but if you read all the car mags, everyone of them had the GTR against the 997GT2 or turbo or GT3, and it was a pretty close contest in many cases. Just makes you wonder how much potential these little cars of ours really have, and what a pity Porsche didn't continue the front engined models.

[chris white ver2]

Running down and passing GT3’s just never gets old….

Then you wait for the ‘walk by’ in the garage – it always comes. Some GT3 guys walk by at 50ft and try to act like they are not staring…some are cool and come up and ask what the hell just happened!

My favorite was the Ferrari Challenge driver that did a cheesy drive bomb pass without a point by in to a sharp 180 (toe of the Boot at Watkins Glen)…I picked it up a notch and stayed glued to his rear pumper for a lap (Ferrari guys don’t give point bys!). He got more and more erratic so I let him go. Just made my day - Probably not that same result for him!

[333pg333]

chris white ver2 said:

Running down and passing GT3’s just never gets old….

Then you wait for the ‘walk by’ in the garage – it always comes. Some GT3 guys walk by at 50ft and try to act like they are not staring…some are cool and come up and ask what the hell just happened!

My favorite was the Ferrari Challenge driver that did a cheesy drive bomb pass without a point by in to a sharp 180 (toe of the Boot at Watkins Glen)…I picked it up a notch and stayed glued to his rear pumper for a lap (Ferrari guys don’t give point bys!). He got more and more erratic so I let him go. Just made my day - Probably not that same result for him!

Ferrari guys out here are pussys. Guess they have enough money to buy / lease the car but not enough to fix it if they play with a wall. You got any video Chris?

Bottom line is these little cars of ours can give some much more vaunted and expensive machinery a real fright. A funny situation happened with our club sprint events. We had done the morning qualifying sessions and were waiting for them to post the run groups for the day's events. Out came the sheets and there I was in 2nd place on the grid. Behind me were GT2's, GT3's and other supercars. I am quite sure they got the times wrong and they don't show us those times for some reason? but it was fun for a while. We did the first sessions and it became clear that while I was going pretty quick, in the end the guy with the 550hp GT2 caught and passed me and the next guy was on my tail. So I went back to the pits and sort of jokingly said, "Don't worry guys, I'll assume my normal position next time out. Don't want to hold you up" sort of thing. One of the guys with a GT2 or Cup Car just said, "Yes you were" without even looking up from the paper and I just shuffled on.

THIS IS WHY I WANT TO MAKE MY CAR A BEAST AND SPEND ALL THIS STUPID MONEY!! These guys make my blood boil and I will crush them into the dirt like the worms that they are!!
Rich worms might make rich soil?
Cough...Cough...er..umm ...there got that out of my system. Now where were we.....


Sorry Barry, back to the program. Got a little off track there.

Edited by 333pg333 on Saturday 6th February 23:32

[chris white ver2]

There is one on You tube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sli81hbsJDc from quite a while ago - this is actually the same car from the second dyno chart – its street driven 944 turbo. My favorite part is about 4:00 minutes in. You need to have the sound up – nice sounding 911! You can see where I was waiting a bit for the point by – they see a license plate in teh mirror and assume that it can’t e as fast as their track car….

This was the instructors run group for a NNJR PCA event.

[333pg333]

chris white ver2 said:

There is one on You tube - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sli81hbsJDc from quite a while ago - this is actually the same car from the second dyno chart – its street driven 944 turbo. My favorite part is about 4:00 minutes in. You need to have the sound up – nice sounding 911! You can see where I was waiting a bit for the point by – they see a license plate in teh mirror and assume that it can’t e as fast as their track car….

This was the instructors run group for a NNJR PCA event.

Nice smooth lines. Make it look easy. Although down here at least they want us to all sit close to the wheel like someone's Mum. You're old school lol.
I like the stock gearing for a track like that too. You can take advantage of the torque. What was the power / tq of the car back then, or same as dyno? Is this a 2.5L Mid? Bit of squeal, what tyres?
I like the look of VIR too.

Edited by 333pg333 on Tuesday 9th February 11:09

[Penguinracer]

I think you guys have hit the nail on the head! Being competitive with GT3s & GT2s in a much older cheaper car which is massively underestimated is also a big driver for me. Showing up at a track day in a "mouse that roars" is very satisfying! Chris, Baz & Jon are doing brilliant work with these cars.Sections of the 951 community are proving that you don't have to spend £100+K to be seriously quick & are also showing how poor value for money many new supercars are. It's interesting that it costs Porsche £6K more to build a new 911 turbo than a Boxster S. Supercars & luxury cars are the high-margin products for their manufacturers & chronically depreciating assets for their owners.On a more technical level I'd be interested in hearing from UK 951 modifiers about their experience with stand alone engine management e.g Motec, Link etc.

[diver944]

I only know of two cars in the UK that have full standalone fitted to a 944T and they have both plumped for Motec - Nick_968 of this forum has it fitted to his 3.0L 968T and SimonP (who physically built my 3.2L engine) has fitted it to his 2.5L Turbo but it isn't fully tuned yet.

[chris white ver2]

There is a fellow in London with one of my Electromotive TecGT kits on his 3.0 944 turbo...
I won't name a customer (unless they like the publicity!) but he is out there...

[Penguinracer]

The Link interested me as it is similar spec to the Motec 880 but considerably cheaper. I must also plead guilty to an unhealthy dose of patriotism - I'm a Kiwi & Link is based in my home town (Christchurch, New Zealand) whereas Motec hails from Melbourne, Australia (otherwise known to kiwis as "The West Island"!).In all seriousness, Link G4 Xtreme is of interest. Is anyone on these boards using this on a 951?

[Niffty951]

Looking at the other side of the points above. When I was briefly considering buying either a gen2 996 gt3, 993tt or 996 gt2 the thought kept bothering me that in any one of those cars I could only ever lose in a race. People expect them to be the last word in fast so there's never that smile of surprise and it's always going to be embarrassing when something like a rice rocket or 350hp per ton 944t comes along and overtakes you.

It has never really bothered me when actually driving an expensive car because a cheap car no matter how fast is never going to have quite the same aura about its presence but I'd be very sad to lose the element of surprise and cheekiness that comes with overtaking a car worth 10 times more when they're really trying

p.s. Just to clarify, this small niggle wasn't what stopped me buying a 993 turbo and I will still have one some day.

[chris white ver2]

Yes, that kind of sums up how I feel – there are people who are impressed by a car and people who are impressed with what you can do with a car (modifying or driving). I am the latter type.

Owning an expensive car is only an indication that you have a healthy checkbook….which does not impress car guys. Some of the expensive car owners (Ferrari especially!) seem to think that the cars ‘aura’ extends to include them…it doesn’t. I am glad to be aura free at the track…

[Niffty951]

chris white ver2 said:

Yes, that kind of sums up how I feel – there are people who are impressed by a car and people who are impressed with what you can do with a car (modifying or driving). I am the latter type.

Owning an expensive car is only an indication that you have a healthy checkbook….which does not impress car guys. Some of the expensive car owners (Ferrari especially!) seem to think that the cars ‘aura’ extends to include them…it doesn’t. I am glad to be aura free at the track…

I agree with both but you missed a category. The reason I love cars like the 993turbo (besides its beauty), even though a 944t can be made easily as capable, is because as a petrol head (or gear head) every time I see or hear one it makes me smile, makes me happy even makes my day and I remember that moment. When I see one driven properly I never forget that moment.

Petrol heads like me are a dying breed. Society seems to hate us, the next generation seems to have forgotten what real dream cars are and seeing a dream car on the road at all.. let alone one driven properly is becoming rarer and rarer.

It gives me pleasure to give others that pleasure and to see children smiling and taking photo's.

For the most part I drive cars for the thrill/skill but a big part of me loves to bring that joy of excitement to others.

The ONLY exception to a car with aura for this effect is a car with a big surprise under the bonnet. So seeing a 25year old car like a 944 drop its arse to the floor and spit itself down the road with a smear of rubber snaking behind it. Brings a giggle to me at the very least.

[333pg333]

Driving for enjoyments sake is no longer available to us on the roads down here. Well I'm sure you can find some roads but you have to approach it like a military operation. So it's the track only now.

Modifying these cars to outperform the latest and greatest is probably what spurs most of us on. Damn, can't wait to get back out there

[333pg333]

Barry sorry if we have taken your thread too much off target. I wondered if you have seen these:

https://aerocharger.com/shop/index.php/aerocharger...

[Thom]

What kind of aftermarket EMS can manage a VATN?

[Niffty951]

Thom said:

What kind of aftermarket EMS can manage a VATN?

Vatn? I assume you mean the turbo? I would think any aftermarket management system capable of opperating variable valve timing and the like could also be used to adjust a variable vane turbo but I would question the real world advantages on something like a 3.0 944 project?

I understand for smooth progression on top end Mercedes and 997 turbo's they can help add to the whole package but on its own in a home brew track car type engine with rough edges I think you'd be throwing your money away (personally). Never the less a nice gadget

[nick_968]

diver944 said:

I only know of two cars in the UK that have full standalone fitted to a 944T and they have both plumped for Motec - Nick_968 of this forum has it fitted to his 3.0L 968T and SimonP (who physically built my 3.2L engine) has fitted it to his 2.5L Turbo but it isn't fully tuned yet.

Just to put the record straight Simon is not using Motec, prob in part due to the high initial outlay. He is using another system which he felt had all the features he needed but I do not think the interface is a user friendly as Motec so prob not an option for those of us without his technical expertise. I cannot remember the system he is using but I think it is more common among racers and engine builders and was not a name that I was familiar with. I think he is also facing similar problems that myself and others face when installing a standalone in that you need to create not just the map from scratch but all the initial settings, compensation tables and other nuances that are required to get the car running as good as the factory setup. I am pretty close now with mine but it does take a level of expertise and dedication far beyond kits that include chips that work with the factory ECU, although there are limits to what you can do with the factory ECU when going away from standard sensors such as the MAF and the reference sensors as I did hence the choice to go full standalone.

[937carrera]

andy97 said:

I think a 944 Turbo or a 968 Turbo would do very well in the MSVR GT Cup series. Have a look at that series. There's already a 944 Turbo running in that but its a one man band effort, maybe he could do with some help, or a sister car to run against. Please do something to show everyone how good the 944/968 could have been!

That would be me . I have just spent most of the morning reading through this interesting thread. Mine is a 3.0 turbo using 968 bottom end and a 2.7 head. Not quite a one man band effort, there's a few people involved in prepping the car, but the nearest I get to being an "arrive & drive" competitor is that I "drive" the truck to "arrive" st the circuit. My car is certainly technologically challenged when you are racing against brand new Aston Martin N24's, but being on their pace and taking the odd GT3 scalp is hugely enjoyable. For me the best development would be to have a modern multilink suspension design, but I don't think that's an option.

I will have a fresh engine for this year, with a new engine management system (not MOTEC) which is showing good results. I moved to the 3.0 to gain racing reliability, rather than performance gain. My old 2.5 racer was capable of running at 400hp, but head gaskets almost became a consumable and I became tired of liners splitting - hydraulically locked engines tend to loose grip on the track uncontrollably . That's probably a good indication of the difference in stress levels (thermal/mechanical) between road cars and race cars

Edited by 937carrera on Saturday 6th March 14:07

[GC8]

Wills rings will seal your head if you encounter this problem again: split liners I cant help with though.